newyorknewyork wrote:You guys are forgetting that Chauncey Billups was apart of the trade and that he was expected to be the PG for the Knicks until Paul became a free agent. Billups was supposed to be he PG that got Amare going. Billups of course turned into Tyson Chandler. Swapping Billups for Tyson was a huge hit for the immediate Knicks with especially with MDA but that move was made I guess for the longer term.

While they did give up to much for Melo they also landed pure bargains with JR Smith, Novak, and Lin for the time he was with the squad.

And its clear the Knicks have been looking to imulate Dallas Mavericks championship team{who beat the Heat) as that is the squad they could mostly identifiy with in terms of lacking the first tier Superstar but having a 2nd tier Superstar and being better then most teams in terms of depth and overall talent accross the depth chart.

Amare and Melo should be used with the same principals that Phi would use Shaq and Kobe. Pound the ball on the PNR with Amare for the first 3 quarters, then let Melo be the closer in the 4th.

Good point about Billups and Chandler. I would add another point that no-one brings up. When people defend MDA and say that last year was actually his real first year because of the all the roster turn-over he dealt with in his first 2 years; cant we also say that this upcoming year is really Melo's first year because finally, he will be playing with a stable roster for the first time since being traded here? The roster was depleted to get him and no-one could have expected much from the team immediately following the trade.

Uptown wrote:

tkf wrote:

Uptown wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Uptown wrote:

holfresh wrote:

IrishKnickFan wrote:

holfresh wrote:Well I for one is happy to see Melo say he will do what it takes to win...Sorry no spin...

I believe Melo I think that he will make sacrifices and wants to win badly especially after his buddy Lebron won. However you cant blame people who feel taht Melo needs to prove it on the court first because he does. I like melo and feel that he will have his best year BUT he still has to prove it

These are the same people who thinks Gallo doesn't flops..

Holfresh, good post but you opened the flood gates for the usual anti-Melo-Jerk circle to commence...Its beyond funny how its the usual suspects that love Gallo/Hate Melo....What ever happened to objectivity?

I'm not a Gallo lover by any means. Matter of fact he was extremely overrated when here but what I'll give Gallo credit for is showing some strides and growing into what could be a unique player. What he has to improve on first and foremost is his health, his ability to hit wide open jumpers, and his ability to finish at the rim off the dribble. He plays big most of the time, when it's money time and he plays with a pretty decent level of efficiency.

What the Melo lovers have a hard time dealing with is that Melo isn't beyond criticism and the level at which you all want to shower praise on him comes in wake of criticism heaped on him.

How about you guys do what Melo should be doing and just let things play out instead of trying to hand him/announce glory in advance.

Good grief even one of Melo's biggest supporters Stephen A. Smith has acknowledged the dude hasn't gotten the job done yet

Speaking for myself, I have been critical of Melo when is necessary. I have gone on record as saying Melo had to take some of the blame in the MDA debacle. As the coach and architect of the team, I believe MDA needs to take most of the blame, but Melo wasn't always a good soldier so he takes a bit of a hit aswell.

I find it ironic that those who knock Melo are quick to point out that he's not an elite player, then turn around and bash Melo for not leading his team to 'chips like the elite players they claim he is not as good as anyway. Even the most hardcore Melo fan can see that he's not on Lebron and Kobe's leve and I've never seen anyone on this board say this. We all know he's a pure scorer similar to Gervin, King and Dantley, yet, the Melo-haters up the ante and expect him to put up Lebrons point-forward numbers. When he doesn't, they bash him when they know that's not his make-up. So its pretty much a lose-lose situation for Melo in the eyes of haters who raise the expectation level just out of reach so he can get knocked regardless.

The posts that bother me most, is those that lack any objectivity. The black-white posts that throw up surface-numbers and do not offer a glimpse beneath the surface. It has nothing to do with blaming Karl his Nuggs teammates, but its about being real. Did anyone really expect the Nuggs to beat the Spurs (twice) or the Lakers in the playoffs without homecourt? Why not acknowledge that one year the Nuggs won 50 games and was an 8th seed? Doesn't that say something about how tough the west was during those years? Facts like that are brushed aside and left out of posts because it doesn't fit with certain posters agenda's. Objectivity from some of this posters would nice sometimes....

uptown one of the biggest problems I have is this.... when compared to lebron, kobe and wade etc.. melo fans will cry that is not fair, he is not on their level.. but when his flaws are pointed out, they will point to guys like lebron, kobe and wade and say, well people were saying the same thing about them, or they needed another star to win... so in essence they are saying melo is on their level and the only difference is that melo never had another great player.... lol.. which is not true...

also his scoring which is good, but not elite is always overrated... I keep seeing the comparisons to guys like KIng, Gervin.. LOL.. I mean come on.. those guys were super efficient and they were true big time scorers.. I know for sure king and gervin averaged over 30ppg in their careers at least one time... melo at his highest has been at 28ppg.. he is a good scorer, a great streak scorer, but I think that is overblown...

so when melo fans use his scoring to defend him as an elite player. which he is not, or to defend the trade(which was a ridiculous trade) the biggest defense is "the best pure scorer".. argument.. and honestly it is tiring, espeically when I see guys like durant winning scoring titles left and right...

to keep it real as a player melo has had very little team success and even less individually.. why should this guy be mentioned among the elites, heck why should we justify building around him over amare? what has he done to justify that?

uptown one of the biggest problems I have is this.... when compared to lebron, kobe and wade etc.. melo fans will cry that is not fair, he is not on their level.. but when his flaws are pointed out, they will point to guys like lebron, kobe and wade and say, well people were saying the same thing about them, or they needed another star to win... so in essence they are saying melo is on their level and the only difference is that melo never had another great player.... lol.. which is not true...

Like I said, I've never put Melo on Lebron or Kobe's level. But it doesn't matter whether you are a 1st or 2nd tier player, you need talent around you to win big in this league. With the exception of Utah, (which I acknowledge that Melo should have willed his team to victory) you can make the argument that Melo's teams were less talented than the teams he lost to in the playoffs. You may call that excuse-making, but I call it being objective after honestly evaluating each team he lost to in the playoffs. Look it up and and we can debate about it.

also his scoring which is good, but not elite is always overrated... I keep seeing the comparisons to guys like KIng, Gervin.. LOL.. I mean come on.. those guys were super efficient and they were true big time scorers.. I know for sure king and gervin averaged over 30ppg in their careers at least one time... melo at his highest has been at 28ppg.. he is a good scorer, a great streak scorer, but I think that is overblown...

First, it was me who brought up King and Gervin. Yes, I do believe that he is a scorer from the same blood line. Now, is he as efficient? Not quite, but TKF, you've been around the game long enough to know the game today is alot different than the game Gervin and King played. The defense in this era is far more sophisticated, the scouting and technical aspects are far more advanced, and possessions are down, not to mention the FAST-BREAK doesn't even exist anymore. In this era, playing in today's game, he is one of the best scorer's. Is he the best? It's a fair debatable question.

One last point about comparisons; Its similar to when people say that Wade and Kobe are from the same cloth as Jordan because there games are similar. Is Wade and Kobe as good as Jordan? Hell-to-the-No! But their style of play is similar.....

so when melo fans use his scoring to defend him as an elite player. which he is not, or to defend the trade(which was a ridiculous trade) the biggest defense is "the best pure scorer".. argument.. and honestly it is tiring, espeically when I see guys like durant winning scoring titles left and right...

Did we give up too much? Yes, I think so. But when you consistently blame Melo for the trade, I think you are being unfair. Melo is a mere player. Dolan and Walsh, as far as I know were the owner and GM and the only ones with the authority to sign off on trades. Melo can't trade for himself. Dolan could have called the Nuggs and said "No, go **** yaselves!" is he didn't like the deal. Also, cant knock Melo for trying to get his money. With the lock-out looming and the cap situation being uncertain, it was a smart business move. Similar to Lin, I wanted him to remain, but he took the most money. It was business, not personal.

Him never winning scoring titles doesn't mean you still cant debate whether or not he's the best purer scorer. I think the reason he's in the discussion with Durant is simply because he's a better post player than Durant is and has more ways to the ball in the basket, rather than rely on jumpers. Again, its debatable, similar to when people used to debate whether Dominique was the the best scorer in the league even when he lost to Jordan and other every year. (Yes, Dominique got 1, but it was the year Jordan got hurt).

to keep it real as a player melo has had very little team success and even less individually.. why should this guy be mentioned among the elites, heck why should we justify building around him over amare? what has he done to justify that?

First, its not good business to build any team around Amare, who, even before we signed him was showing major signs of wear and tear. Knee injuries, eye injury etc. And if Amare was really worth of being built around, why were the Knicks the only team to think this way considering we bid against ourselves for his services. Its not like we traded Amare for Melo, they are both here and now its Grunwalds job to put the right pieces around the both of them to help us be successful. So far Grundwald and Woodson have done a good job during the second half of last season and in the off-season finally giving this team an identity. Lets see what happens during the season.

well you have some good points uptown, and I will address a few of them..

1) I don't blame walsh at all, I honestly believe that dolan pushed him aside to get melo here afte walsh began to balk on the deal, which prompted carmelo to ask for a meeting with dolan to see "how much they want me"..

2)yes, every great player needs talent around them.. the difference is elite players don't need better players than them to win.. carmelo needs better players, he had AI and billups, got to the wcf, but that is it... if carmelo can't win with amare, a similar level of talent, then what? if he needs a better player, then why ante up the farm to get him? guys like nash, lebron have taken teams far with less talent than the nuggets had, especially when amare got hurt that year.

3)s, I do believe that he is a scorer from the same blood line. Now, is he as efficient? Not quite, but TKF, you've been around the game long enough to know the game today is alot different than the game Gervin and King played. The defense in this era is far more sophisticated, the scouting and technical aspects are far more advanced, and possessions are down, not to mention the FAST-BREAK doesn't even exist anymore. In this era, playing in today's game, he is one of the best scorer's. Is he the best? It's a fair debatable question.

I think it is easier to score today, the rules changes completely favor the offensive player.. no hand checking, no touching, I mean it is taylor made for scoring... I did a piece on realgm one time, talking about todays scorers vs the ones from the 80's... the trips to the FT line in todays game was a telling factor... scorers like bernard and gervin, didn't make that many trips to the line, they made shots.. when bernard was dropping 50, he was doing so and getting beat up all game.... carmelo is not in those guys class as scorers, carmelo is a streak scorer, those guys were just scorers...

Him never winning scoring titles doesn't mean you still cant debate whether or not he's the best purer scorer. I think the reason he's in the discussion with Durant is simply because he's a better post player than Durant is and has more ways to the ball in the basket, rather than rely on jumpers. Again, its debatable, similar to when people used to debate whether Dominique was the the best scorer in the league even when he lost to Jordan and other every year. (Yes, Dominique got 1, but it was the year Jordan got hurt).

i think you need to look at how many times nique finished in the top 3, which is why I think most made the argument for him.. understandable.. carmelo has consistently finished outside of the top 3 or 4... and really, lets not go there, durant can put the ball in the basket many ways.. plus how many ways is there to do so.. as long as you get the ball in the basket efficiently.. and durant does that.. using the "carmelo has a post game" argument is really not legit when we are talking about a guy who also doesn't move without the ball.. is one more important than the other.. watch durant, it just isn't jumpers, but then again, I ask, if he is hitting jumpers at a 50% clip what does it matter that he doesn't post up?

I just ask, if carmelo is such a great scorer with so many ways to put the ball in the basket, don't you think in 9 years there would have been at least one scoring title? one 30ppg season? a few second place finishes? there are none of those, so how is this even debatable? allen iverson had no post game and yet won 4 scoring titles... averaged over 30ppg more than once.. that is a scorer!! T-mac in his prime was a scorer...elite scorer... carmelo is a streaky scorer which is why over 9 years we have not seen any 30ppg years, or any scoring titles.. but that I guess is to be expected when you score in streaks..

4) yes we can see what happens during the season, you have a valid point.. I just think some of us feel it is going to be the same old pig, just dressed up with some new shoes and lipstick... but we will see...

newyorknewyork wrote:You guys are forgetting that Chauncey Billups was apart of the trade and that he was expected to be the PG for the Knicks until Paul became a free agent. Billups was supposed to be he PG that got Amare going. Billups of course turned into Tyson Chandler. Swapping Billups for Tyson was a huge hit for the immediate Knicks with especially with MDA but that move was made I guess for the longer term.

While they did give up to much for Melo they also landed pure bargains with JR Smith, Novak, and Lin for the time he was with the squad.

And its clear the Knicks have been looking to imulate Dallas Mavericks championship team{who beat the Heat) as that is the squad they could mostly identifiy with in terms of lacking the first tier Superstar but having a 2nd tier Superstar and being better then most teams in terms of depth and overall talent accross the depth chart.

Amare and Melo should be used with the same principals that Phi would use Shaq and Kobe. Pound the ball on the PNR with Amare for the first 3 quarters, then let Melo be the closer in the 4th.

I know you're not mentioning Smith/Novak/Lin as if that was by some design or part of a grander plan. You can't build a team that way. Start looking at teams who have won chips the past 20yrs and how many of them point to late season free agent signings or waiver pickups as a huge reason they were able to contend or win it all. We also don't have Lin anymore so not sure I get your point.