earthmansurfer wrote:

CashMoney wrote:
Oh, so everyting a reporter/columnist writes is factual? Of course not, only if something is written defending Lin.

Felton has proved he can run an offense and play defense. He's also has a career going into his 9th season. We know what to expect from the guy.... 13 & 6 with a steal and around 2 turnovers a game. He also proved he can play outside of MDA's system.

Lin played well for 19 games and struggled under Woodson. That's a fact and your delusional if you don't think he has nothing to prove. Can he go left and run an offense without turning the ball over 4+ times a game. Can he hold his own against the best PG's in the league like CP3, Nash, Westbrook, etc. every night? Will he be able to defend those guys or will Houston have to switch up the D like the Knicks had to with Calderon?

Lin was so highly sought that he met with exactly 1 team. Felton could have received more money from other teams but he wanted to be here in NYC. Felton didn't want to talk to anyone this offseason other than the Knicks.

Sorry but Lin is no Felton until he PROVES otherwise. Amazing that so may people lose their damn minds over 19 freakin games. You would think that the Knicks let the second coming of Steve Nash walk away. Please..........

I can't believe you are still comparing Felton to Lin. Felton has had 1 great season in the league and that was when he was playing under D'Antoni. His numbers fell off the last 10 games of that season anyway. I do like Felton, but no way do I pick him over Lin.

Why do you keep harping on Lin not being able to go left? He improved going left and was fine at it. He is what 24 and you are comparing him to someone 28? At the same age (24) Lin is better than Felton at everything.
Why do you keep talking about Lin's TO's. He had them down to around 5, which is fine considering his age, experience and aggressive style. Clearly he will continue to improve there - it was his first year in the league basically and defenses were really keying on the guy and he still played great.

I don't think Lin played bad under Woodson, but the dumping of the ball to Melo all the time pretty much kills his game. And that is not to say we need to dump the ball to Melo everytime.

Lin was playing great, not good, defense, until those 45 minute games took its toll on him. Don't forget Lin was hurt the last 12 games he played in - from Dallas game on.

Lin got 1 offer for a variety of reasons: 1 - We said we'd match anything 2 - the Luxury tax implications of that third year was a turn off to most teams 3 - How many teams needed him, in particular considering the previous, etc.

Lin is no Felton? You mean the guy who has underperformed and overeated all but one year in the league? Lin the guy who put up numbers as essentially a rookie?

Your argument would be more sound if you balanced it a bit better. It is so one sided and exclusionary that it is a bit too easy to see though.

EMS

Lin had a great 19 games under MDA. Lin's number fell off in the 7 games he played under Woodson. Lin was playing great until those 45 minutes games took a toll on him but Felton playoing close to 40 a night and doing it for 45 games would be an excuse...right?

What I meany by Lin is no Felton is that Felton has been doing it for 8 years in the NBA. Lin plays 19 games under MDA and it's the biggest travesty in the history of the Knicks franchise that they don't want to give him a payday of almost $15 million dollars. All I'm saying is that the kid has a lot to improve on and prove as well.

Maybe it's just me but I don't get it. Linsanity was something never ever seen before and as Knicks fans it made is like him that much more. So much that so many simply deny that there is a POSSIBILITY that Lin was playing over his head.

His numbers went down under Woodson! - "He was playing hurt and he was dumping the ball into Melo. That's why his FG%, 3PT% & AST's went down."
He turned the ball over a ton! - "He's young and his turnovers will definately come down."
He's getting $14.8 million in year 3! That's more than Rondo in the last year of his curent deal! Nash is getting 3 years $27 million from the Lakers! "Who cares, Dolan has the money, just pay him!
Felton is a veteran and will run the team just fine! - "Lin is better. He brings something speacial to the team."

BLIND LIN LOGIC

Felton played over his head under MDA. Compare that year to his career numbers and you can clearly see that his numbers were directly attributed to playing in MDA's system.
Lin played 19 games under MDA and put up amazing numbers. However, even though he has never played meaningful minutes in anyother system for any other team you can cleary see that his numbers had nothing to do with MDA's system. In fact every weakness in his game will be improved upon since he's only 24. Even though it's a known fact that MDA's system has greatly improved the numbers of PG's such as Duhon and Felton this is 100% not the case with Jeremy Lin.

CashMoney wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Nalod wrote:I think the knicks wanted lin and Nash as they wanted Lin and Kidd. The market for Nash was higher than one could have thought and Nash wanted to be paid. If Nash wanted to be in NY he had to take less money.

Lin has a higher ceiling then Felton and perhaps will be great. Or not.

Knicks don't like to take risks. They don't mind paying for talent but like to do so with established names.

The riddle that is Lin will be settled over his contract. I think the knicks wanted him for 5mm per year.

Now we just wait it out for CP3 to force a sign and trade.

CP3 is where this is all heading.

i don't disagree, but if they wanted him for $5M a year they could have offered him 5yrs at $5M per season on the first day of free agency.

That's why he was told to test the market and have the market set the value. Insead of giviing him a "low ball" offer they had an out.

I think Lin testing the market was to his advantage and the knicks were fine with that. Knicks are not known to be low ball or cheap. I also think this is how Lins management would have wanted it.

Lin did not have to sign the Rocket offer but lets be real, Lin blows his knee out his career is over and 25mm is more than 15mm.

Don't take a Harvard grad to figure this all out. Lin gonna make the endorsement asian deals anyway. Knicks don't sniff the china TV money, thats divided among the teams. So its ad space in the garden and thats not going to bring in extra 10mil in salary or 35m in taxes. So its not fiscally sound.

I actually am ok with both parties on this and understand. I hate losing his potential if the kid proves to be as good as we think. IM not talking Linsanity numbers, but 15-7 as 4th option on this team would be very pivotal in our season. Stats don't tell every story. I just think out ceiling his higher with him.

Dolan being a douche bag and Having Grunny hid in the closet was low.

I wish the kid well. Im sure many fans prefer he suck so we don't lament in envy but gone is gone in my book.

Im the guy that hopes Wilson, Gallo and Mozgov have good careers. Add Lando and Lin to that list.

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Nalod wrote:I think the knicks wanted lin and Nash as they wanted Lin and Kidd. The market for Nash was higher than one could have thought and Nash wanted to be paid. If Nash wanted to be in NY he had to take less money.

Lin has a higher ceiling then Felton and perhaps will be great. Or not.

Knicks don't like to take risks. They don't mind paying for talent but like to do so with established names.

The riddle that is Lin will be settled over his contract. I think the knicks wanted him for 5mm per year.

Now we just wait it out for CP3 to force a sign and trade.

CP3 is where this is all heading.

i don't disagree, but if they wanted him for $5M a year they could have offered him 5yrs at $5M per season on the first day of free agency.

That's why he was told to test the market and have the market set the value. Insead of giviing him a "low ball" offer they had an out.

He would have perceived 4 yr, $24 mil as a low ball offer? You're just guessing, and the guessing doesn't even make sense. He jumped at $8 mil per but would have perceived $6 mil per as an insulting low ball offer?

That's the max they could have offered. Did Lin's camp not know that? Could they have gone back to the Knicks at anytime and and said "4 Years $24 and we're good."?

If the Knicks made that offer and Lin signed the offer sheet with the Rockets anyway the only difference would be that instead of Dolan being dumb Lin would be looked at as the villan. At the end of the day it's on a PR difference.

crzymdups wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

knickscity wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

knickscity wrote:When Melo was on the court with Lin, they were blowing teams out the building.

(once d'antoni was fired and melo started trying)... but overall i agree. i was really excited to see what the team could do with Lin and Melo over a full season.

that's a good argument not to bring Lin back then.

the knicks absolutely dominated the pacers two games in a row with Lin and Melo. Melo didn't score a lot, because it was pure 5 on 5 basketball.

two weeks later, lin is down, melo scores 39pts 10rebs against the pacers and the knicks lose ugly.

Knicks were better with Lin and Melo.

Melo didn't want to share the spotlight and especially didn't want to be nudged out of the spot light by Lin. Hence, despite all basketball logic, Lin is gone and it's Melo's team.

Let's see how far he can take the Knicks. History shows it will be the first round.

There is nothing to support whether Melo wanted to share the spotlight, as when playing team ball there is not spotlight on any single player.

When the team was healthy when Woodson took over, everyone contributed, and the results were ridiculous.

there was no who's better or spotlight, both guys got to sit most of the fourth quarters while their team mates kept piling it on.

There are reports in the NY Times, ESPN, CBS and Yahoo saying Melo didn't want to share the spot light. I can dig up links if you like. You can find a few if you google "Melo didn't want to share the spotlight"

Hey, I just think the Knicks could have seriously challenged the Heat with Lin, Melo, Tyson, Shump, Kidd, Amar'e, Camby, Novak, JR, Fields.

They have a nice team, but it's missing the special element Lin brought to the team that could have made their offense unpredictable and made their defense play better together and their team play better together.

Felton is a good kid. He's no Lin. I'm sure the regular season will be over .500, but I think it was a gigantic missed opportunity and it had nothing to do with money.

Reports are speculation. The Knicks can still challenge the Heat.

Lin has a total of 25 starts. Felton has over 400. How about Lin proves he's better than Felton?

Reporters and columnists in large part base their entire CAREER on their reputations. Why oh why would the MOST RESPECTED REPORTERS IN THE NBA risk their reputations on unfounded reports?

But, oh, no, MARC BERMAN has a soundbite from Melo refuting those reports! CASE CLOSED!

SMFH

Also, EXACTLY. Felton has over 400 starts and has proved nothing. Lin was far more highly sought after around the league than Felton this summer. I'm sorry you need to lie to yourself about that.

I thought I explained this to you in another thread. You have no idea what your talking about! Columns are opinion based (speculative) articles where the writer offers his personal point of view. I have written columns myself (for an upstart mag). Wojo and these other columnists are not risking their reputations at all by offering an Opinion. He's not trying to pass anything off as facts (except to those who dont understand how to decipher reporters from columnists) so there is no risk especially with this situation. Especially when there's a quote from Melo that's taken completely out of context and a wing of fans who already dont care for Melo or eat up conspiracy theories....

BTW....Of course Lin is more sort after than Felton. Lin is akin to a rookie. He's still unproven
and has the potential to improve or go the other way, while Felton is what he is at this point. Potential is always valued more than established players who are just above average. Remember the outlandish rookie contracts back in the 90's when Rooks were entering the league making more money than allstars?

earthmansurfer wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Nalod wrote:I think the knicks wanted lin and Nash as they wanted Lin and Kidd. The market for Nash was higher than one could have thought and Nash wanted to be paid. If Nash wanted to be in NY he had to take less money.

Lin has a higher ceiling then Felton and perhaps will be great. Or not.

Knicks don't like to take risks. They don't mind paying for talent but like to do so with established names.

The riddle that is Lin will be settled over his contract. I think the knicks wanted him for 5mm per year.

Now we just wait it out for CP3 to force a sign and trade.

CP3 is where this is all heading.

i don't disagree, but if they wanted him for $5M a year they could have offered him 5yrs at $5M per season on the first day of free agency.

That's why he was told to test the market and have the market set the value. Insead of giviing him a "low ball" offer they had an out.

He would have perceived 4 yr, $24 mil as a low ball offer? You're just guessing, and the guessing doesn't even make sense. He jumped at $8 mil per but would have perceived $6 mil per as an insulting low ball offer?

This is the baseline of my argument in a sense, regarding why the Knicks didn't really want Lin. An article I read last week or so said the Knicks were talking about a front loaded contract??????? What, that means starting at 6 and going down (or perhaps lower to start). I just don't understand how the greatest pg talent we've had in years, albeit no completely proven with years, but none the less great pg talent, is not even given an offer.

Lin is young. Look what Rubio did before he got hurt - limited games right? Would they just let him walk? Didn't Lin do incredible things in college? It isn't like Lin suddenly started producing.

Except he didn't get 8 mil per. He got 15 mil in yr 3 The year that the Knicks would be put into an incredibly restrictive and punitive situation with the cap and the new cba. If it was8 mil per yr he would still be a knick in my opinion.

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Nalod wrote:I think the knicks wanted lin and Nash as they wanted Lin and Kidd. The market for Nash was higher than one could have thought and Nash wanted to be paid. If Nash wanted to be in NY he had to take less money.

Lin has a higher ceiling then Felton and perhaps will be great. Or not.

Knicks don't like to take risks. They don't mind paying for talent but like to do so with established names.

The riddle that is Lin will be settled over his contract. I think the knicks wanted him for 5mm per year.

Now we just wait it out for CP3 to force a sign and trade.

CP3 is where this is all heading.

i don't disagree, but if they wanted him for $5M a year they could have offered him 5yrs at $5M per season on the first day of free agency.

That's why he was told to test the market and have the market set the value. Insead of giviing him a "low ball" offer they had an out.

He would have perceived 4 yr, $24 mil as a low ball offer? You're just guessing, and the guessing doesn't even make sense. He jumped at $8 mil per but would have perceived $6 mil per as an insulting low ball offer?

That's the max they could have offered. Did Lin's camp not know that? Could they have gone back to the Knicks at anytime and and said "4 Years $24 and we're good."?

If the Knicks made that offer and Lin signed the offer sheet with the Rockets anyway the only difference would be that instead of Dolan being dumb Lin would be looked at as the villan. At the end of the day it's on a PR difference.

So it's Lin's responsibility to tell Dolan what offer to make him? I agree with the point in your second paragraph but that's just a fictional scenario.

Of course it's not his responsibility to tell Dolan what to offer him. What I'm trying to say is that if he truly wanted to remain a Knick he COULD have instructed his agents to go back to the Knicks at anytime. He could have pushed for an offer other than "Go test the market Jeremy." Jeremy - "OK."

Yeah it's a fictional scenario because it didn't happen. IMO, it didn't happen becuase the Knicks didn't want it to happen.

Due to the way things unfolded, no doubt Lin wins the PR battle. Time will tell if the Knicks made the right decision.

nehemiah wrote:

You would think that the Knicks let the second coming of Steve Nash walk away. Please.......... (by CashMoney)

You know how people say that when you don't know your history, you will repeat it? Well the above is where you've got some illogical thinking. Argument is made that 19 games is not enough to know enough about a player -- then the argument is made to let the player go?? Well, I've made the point over and over and over and over and over again on these boards, that Dallas let Nash go because they didn't know that even Nash was NASH. When you don't know that even Nash is NASH, then how do you know whether someone is NASH or not? Well you don't, except most are not, and so one looks right most of the time when you say someone isn't NASH. But it doesn't come from any actual knowledge.

However, no one knows whether Lin is just a pretty good PG, vs whether he is the next NASH. No one knows, because again (and let me repeat myself), no one knew even that Nash is NASH. We are all dumbasses when it comes to the future -- the only difference is, some dumbasses know that they are, and some DUMBASSES don't even know that they are, and that makes it much worse.

Did we know Nash was Nash? Well, Steve Nash was very very good player and a 2 time all star when the Mavs let him walk. In additon, although most of his numbers were right on par, his scoring did come down. The Mavs gambled that he was going to start his decline was normally the case when a player starts to go into their 30's and due to his style of play he wouldn't be able to hold up. Nash was still a very very good player and had a track record when the Mavs let him walk. In additon, Nash had already been in Dalls for 6 seasons, 4 season at 14+ PPG and over 7 assists a game. No one in their right mind would have said this guy is a 2 time MVP in the making.

Yeah, none of us KNOW the future but the decision RIGHT NOW has to be based on those 19 games when the questions asked is "Is this player going to be worth $14.8 million in 2 years?" Based on what we've SEEN and the other PG's in the legue earning that pay is Lin worth $14.8?

Steve Nash
Rajon Rondo
Tony Parker
Chris Paul

LOGICALLY how may undrafted players went on to become "superstars" as oppossed to solid NBA players/all star/bordeline all stars? Ben Wallce and Brade Miller? Wesley, Bowen and Starks? All quality/all star level but none who were being paid on par with superstars at their positions.

But the 7 game win streak - LINSANTY. I KNOW WHAT I SAW!
Nets - 1 of the worst teams in the league.
Wizards- one of the worst teams in the league
Wolves - .500 team
Raptors - one of the worst teams in the league.
Kings - again, one of the worst teams in the league.
Lakers - Knicks coming off an off day and the Lakers coming off an OT game and if not mistaken 3 games in 4 nights.
Jazz - terrible road team.

How was his D when he played against solid/all star PG's?
Wall - 29 points
Vasquez - 15 points
Jeff Teague - 18 points
Tony Parker - 32 points
Tyreke Evans - 19 points
Irving - 22 points
Rondo - Triple Double

Yeah the kid did his thing against those teams but also had an asst/to ratio of around 1 to 1. Oh, but he'll get better, he's young! Well his ast/to ration was in the 1 to 1 range while at Harvard as well as his time the NBDL. Look at all the PG's in the league and tell me wether or not their ast/to ratio has remained steady and increased as they became older oppossed to a drastic improvement. (The answer is apparent.)Where is Lin's FT% compared to the other starting PG's in the league?

I'm not hating on Lin. I loved Linsanity, like him as a player and 100% wanted him back.

The TRUTH is that people are blinded by Linsanity. It's all about look at the #'s and ommit anything that is negative becuase he will get btter due to his age.

Is 19 games is enough to know about a player? It is when it's 19 games vs. $14.8 million.

nehemiah wrote:Well saying that we knew that Steve Nash was a good player at the time he left Dallas was not the point I was arguing. Of course everyone knew that. The point is, they didn't know he was going to be MVP Nash (and Cuban said later he was "absolutely wrong"). So we know that people make bad decisions on sometimes even on players who have proved they were very good.

The thing that gets me is that in two years time if Dolan says he was "absolutely wrong", he'll give reasons like that Lin had only had 25 games, his numbers were going down under Woodson, etc. -- well there are millions of people who don't get paid to make basketball decisions that knew of such possibilities -- and would have matched up to 1 billion dollars. And everyone here, Cash, Anubis, ChuckB, they'll give the same reasoning too. "Hey we're only human, no one could have predicted that based on what we knew . . ." Except many kind of did know, or at least considered it possible.

I admit that the possibility exists. However, I will say the probability does not. If Lin = Superstar I will say I was 100% wrong....no excuses.

In fact, I'll put myself out there..... Lin will not be a superstar! He won't be Williams, CP3, Parker. He won't be Stephon in Starbury's prime. At BEST he will be 2nd tier PG...a good solid player but not close to the best at his poisition..... i.e. NOT TOP 5 AT HIS POSITION and will not be worth $14.8 million for a season.

Sincerly,

CashMoney