earthmansurfer wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

toodarkmark wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

nehemiah wrote:This argument basically hinges on the OPINION that Lin can't keep up what he was doing. That he was basically "lucky".

It's pretty iffy logic when exceptional talent is hard to find most years. Even Dallas let go of Nash before he had his two MVP years. Dallas wouldn't match the 60-plus million offer. It was the BEST bargain in the NBA that year. My opinion is that this is an even greater mistake.

I don't think anyone said that Lin was lucky....he can obviously play. The Knicks letting Lin go is worse than the Mavs letting Nash go? So is it your OPINION that Lin is going to have a Nash like career after seeing Lin play in 25 games?

25 games where he WON. 25 games where he put up sick numbers. 25 games that captured imaginations.

So tired of people point out how he only did it in 25 games. He did more in 25 games than Clarence Weatherspoon did in 5 years and we paid him 6 million a year for 5 years back more than a decade ago. AND?

15-10, Lin's record as a starter. He didn't win 25 games. Only about 7 games or so he captured imaginations, the rest were average or pedestrian.

You are going to break Lin's game down to some simpleton statistics?

Watching Lin play and never looking at stats was more than enough for me. The stats, actually, just support the great player my eyes saw.

If you are going to use the W-L record, there are more responsible party's on the team to blame.

EMS

Dude, get some glasses. Great player? NO. Good player? Yes. Ignore that Lin did most of his damage while dominating the ball. Ignore the massive amount of turnovers and ignore the fact that he struggled when he wansn't the main scoring option. Let me clarify, this is not me hating on Lin it's me pointint out whay many choose to ignore.

I think Lin was a great player. He changed this team around more than Melo, Stat, etc. did. He isn't a superstar or star, but he is one of those guys that just changes the chemistry and feel of the team.
Your brilliant "get some glasses" statement, though funny, doesn't really add credence to your words. Stat is making 20 million a year and I would MUCH SOONER have Lin than Stat and it isn't because of Stat's knees.

Don't get caught up in an argument of semantics. Lin did more to turn this team around than any player in recent times. I like Melo, but the team hasn't exactly become a "team" with him here. I do hope things change some in that regard though.

How many playoff games did Lin win for us?

Brilliant and well thought out comeback. I loved how you brought up him recovering from surgery... oh wait.

How about this, if not for Lin, we wouldn't have made the playoffs.

Really? Lin was there in April, when the Knicks made their playoff push? Did he win player of the month?

Forgot who won April player of the month, could you remind me if it was Lin?

I'm not taking away from what Melo did getting us there. What I am saying was, had Lin not did what he did during that 9 game or so stretch when he first came on, the season would have been in the toilet. We wouldn't have been able to even try to get in. Props to the team as a whole for getting us there, of course.

Supremecommander - I'm not taking away from the value of Melo or the team game. Understand, the team game mostly dissapeared for a while with Melo out there and I'm not hating. It was a big complaint on the boards and basically has followed Melo around his whole career. I do see him changing now. I'm just talking about Lin here cause that is this thread and he seemed to bring the team together. He wasn't scoring 40 points a night and taking over, he was scoring at a good clip and getting a good amount of assists. Again, regardless of the STats, what I witnessed, what we as Knick fans witnessed was really special. There is a reason Lin brought so many new fans to the game. It wasn't just this unknown Asian cat, it was how he inspired the team, brought team ball, etc.

fair enough... we're actually closer on our position than I though. Melo definitely played like **** for large stretches last season. I thought ultimately he performed well though, when you think about him having to play point forward and power forward

Agreed. I was a "ME"lo hater for those stretches last year but I remained open to him. He has talent, he just had to play more team oriented and he did. There was that stretch right before the playoffs (I think) where he was just playing so well and dishing the ball. It was effortless. But come the playoffs no one else was performing it was back to ISO ball, no choice really.

The problem with being Pro Lin is that people think you are anti Melo, or the like.

My whole point can be summarized really easily. If I was the GM we would have basically the team we have plus Lin. That, imo, would give us the best chance against Miami and OKC. I do think, if our chemistry comes together we can challenge. But we are in a tight place. Miami won last year with no Bosh. If one of Melo, Stat or Chandler go down, I think our playoffs are finished (again). With Lin here, I'd say we are mostly ok as he can score and dish. Lin was like a pay for itself insurance policy (with the money he brought to MSG).

Only problem is Lin couldn't do it against elite competition or good defensive teams. The Lakers game, he was mostly taking Derek Fisher and Steve Blake to the hole. He struggled against Jose Calderon and Greivis Vasquez. Rose torched him for 32, Deron annihilated him the 2nd game, and Tony Parker blew by him at will. And I didn't even bring up the Miami game.

SupremeCommander wrote:

nehemiah wrote:By the way, SupremeDonk,

I'm glad you looked up numbers after Lin went down for Melo and Stat. If I recall, they also had a bunch of numbers (more actually) before Lin's breakout in the Nets game. Did you look at those? Those numbers are not convenient, you see.

i'm a donk and you're a ****ing idiot

Has it been three years already doomass? Where do you come off being so certain of yourself? Listen, they didn't know even that Nash was NASH. Didn't know. What the hook are you going to say if something similar turns out to be the case (and again, we don't know, so "it won't" is not a good answer, and we let this guy walk). How do you KNOW?

ChuckBuck wrote:

nehemiah wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

nehemiah wrote:By the way, SupremeDonk,

I'm glad you looked up numbers after Lin went down for Melo and Stat. If I recall, they also had a bunch of numbers (more actually) before Lin's breakout in the Nets game. Did you look at those? Those numbers are not convenient, you see.

i'm a donk and you're a ****ing idiot

Has it been three years already doomass? Where do you come off being so certain of yourself? Listen, they didn't know even that Nash was NASH. Didn't know. What the hook are you going to say if something similar turns out to be the case (and again, we don't know, so "it won't" is not a good answer, and we let this guy walk). How do you KNOW?

Please stop mentioning Nash when talking about Lin. Nash was averaging 17 pts and 8 assists his last 3 seasons in Dallas before he signed with Phoenix as a free agent. Lin averaged 14 and 6 for 35 games.

Wow, was that the case? I can understand the reasoning now (thanks). So how come when it was obvious with those Nash numbers did Cuban turn down the opportunity to match Phoenix?

Nash was turning 30, which in the old days was death for a point guard. Cuban outsmarted himself probably, maybe he was trying to be a sabremetrician, who knows. He based his belief in not signing Nash on proven data over 8 seasons of watching Nash play, not on a 35 game sample:

Mark Cuban:

"I'll say it now, if you would have told me Steve would have been playing eight years later I would have bet any amount of money you'd be wrong.
"The thing about Steve is his discipline. I knew he was disciplined, but I thought he would fall apart before it mattered,'' Cuban said. "All the advice I got from everybody we had was that he was going to fall apart. He proved us wrong -- and more power to him.
"I give him a lot of credit. He proved me definitely wrong.''

You can't compare 8 seasons of above average point guard play to a 23 yr old former D leager with about 9 great games, and 26 average ones.

Thanks for engaging in an honest discussion(I'm being sincere).

But see, Chuck, that's the thing. They had a lot more data points, they had a LOT more time to observe, and were still wrong. "He proved me definitely wrong" actually, according to your quote. And what I'm saying is since we don't know, and since Lin becoming an extremely good PG is still within the realm of possibility, we shouldn't have let him walk for nothing.

ChuckBuck wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

toodarkmark wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

nehemiah wrote:This argument basically hinges on the OPINION that Lin can't keep up what he was doing. That he was basically "lucky".

It's pretty iffy logic when exceptional talent is hard to find most years. Even Dallas let go of Nash before he had his two MVP years. Dallas wouldn't match the 60-plus million offer. It was the BEST bargain in the NBA that year. My opinion is that this is an even greater mistake.

I don't think anyone said that Lin was lucky....he can obviously play. The Knicks letting Lin go is worse than the Mavs letting Nash go? So is it your OPINION that Lin is going to have a Nash like career after seeing Lin play in 25 games?

25 games where he WON. 25 games where he put up sick numbers. 25 games that captured imaginations.

So tired of people point out how he only did it in 25 games. He did more in 25 games than Clarence Weatherspoon did in 5 years and we paid him 6 million a year for 5 years back more than a decade ago. AND?

15-10, Lin's record as a starter. He didn't win 25 games. Only about 7 games or so he captured imaginations, the rest were average or pedestrian.

You are going to break Lin's game down to some simpleton statistics?

Watching Lin play and never looking at stats was more than enough for me. The stats, actually, just support the great player my eyes saw.

If you are going to use the W-L record, there are more responsible party's on the team to blame.

EMS

Dude, get some glasses. Great player? NO. Good player? Yes. Ignore that Lin did most of his damage while dominating the ball. Ignore the massive amount of turnovers and ignore the fact that he struggled when he wansn't the main scoring option. Let me clarify, this is not me hating on Lin it's me pointint out whay many choose to ignore.

I think Lin was a great player. He changed this team around more than Melo, Stat, etc. did. He isn't a superstar or star, but he is one of those guys that just changes the chemistry and feel of the team.
Your brilliant "get some glasses" statement, though funny, doesn't really add credence to your words. Stat is making 20 million a year and I would MUCH SOONER have Lin than Stat and it isn't because of Stat's knees.

Don't get caught up in an argument of semantics. Lin did more to turn this team around than any player in recent times. I like Melo, but the team hasn't exactly become a "team" with him here. I do hope things change some in that regard though.

How many playoff games did Lin win for us?

Brilliant and well thought out comeback. I loved how you brought up him recovering from surgery... oh wait.

How about this, if not for Lin, we wouldn't have made the playoffs.

Really? Lin was there in April, when the Knicks made their playoff push? Did he win player of the month?

Forgot who won April player of the month, could you remind me if it was Lin?

I'm not taking away from what Melo did getting us there. What I am saying was, had Lin not did what he did during that 9 game or so stretch when he first came on, the season would have been in the toilet. We wouldn't have been able to even try to get in. Props to the team as a whole for getting us there, of course.

Supremecommander - I'm not taking away from the value of Melo or the team game. Understand, the team game mostly dissapeared for a while with Melo out there and I'm not hating. It was a big complaint on the boards and basically has followed Melo around his whole career. I do see him changing now. I'm just talking about Lin here cause that is this thread and he seemed to bring the team together. He wasn't scoring 40 points a night and taking over, he was scoring at a good clip and getting a good amount of assists. Again, regardless of the STats, what I witnessed, what we as Knick fans witnessed was really special. There is a reason Lin brought so many new fans to the game. It wasn't just this unknown Asian cat, it was how he inspired the team, brought team ball, etc.

fair enough... we're actually closer on our position than I though. Melo definitely played like **** for large stretches last season. I thought ultimately he performed well though, when you think about him having to play point forward and power forward

Agreed. I was a "ME"lo hater for those stretches last year but I remained open to him. He has talent, he just had to play more team oriented and he did. There was that stretch right before the playoffs (I think) where he was just playing so well and dishing the ball. It was effortless. But come the playoffs no one else was performing it was back to ISO ball, no choice really.

The problem with being Pro Lin is that people think you are anti Melo, or the like.

My whole point can be summarized really easily. If I was the GM we would have basically the team we have plus Lin. That, imo, would give us the best chance against Miami and OKC. I do think, if our chemistry comes together we can challenge. But we are in a tight place. Miami won last year with no Bosh. If one of Melo, Stat or Chandler go down, I think our playoffs are finished (again). With Lin here, I'd say we are mostly ok as he can score and dish. Lin was like a pay for itself insurance policy (with the money he brought to MSG).

Only problem is Lin couldn't do it against elite competition or good defensive teams. The Lakers game, he was mostly taking Derek Fisher and Steve Blake to the hole. He struggled against Jose Calderon and Greivis Vasquez. Rose torched him for 32, Deron annihilated him the 2nd game, and Tony Parker blew by him at will. And I didn't even bring up the Miami game.

I think the Lin streak started against Deron Williams. To be fair, Lin was played wayyyyyyyyy too many minutes. He was exhausted. Look at how great his defense was before those minutes got the best of him, as well as that injury killing him for the last 12 games (happened against Dallas it looks like). Didn't he have the game winner over Calderon?

Deron had a personal Vendetta that game and is an all star. He can light anyone up. Rose can torch anyone as well. Should that really bother us? I mean you are comparing Lin against those guys? They are max cats and Lin is making 5 + 5 + 15 million. Don't lose sight of that and just focus on the amount that last year, as the first two years are bargains. We are talking about a guy who is just starting off in the NBA and did what he did and you are comparing him against the cream of the crop? That is not fair in many ways - experience, age, salary, etc.

earthmansurfer wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

toodarkmark wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

nehemiah wrote:This argument basically hinges on the OPINION that Lin can't keep up what he was doing. That he was basically "lucky".

It's pretty iffy logic when exceptional talent is hard to find most years. Even Dallas let go of Nash before he had his two MVP years. Dallas wouldn't match the 60-plus million offer. It was the BEST bargain in the NBA that year. My opinion is that this is an even greater mistake.

I don't think anyone said that Lin was lucky....he can obviously play. The Knicks letting Lin go is worse than the Mavs letting Nash go? So is it your OPINION that Lin is going to have a Nash like career after seeing Lin play in 25 games?

25 games where he WON. 25 games where he put up sick numbers. 25 games that captured imaginations.

So tired of people point out how he only did it in 25 games. He did more in 25 games than Clarence Weatherspoon did in 5 years and we paid him 6 million a year for 5 years back more than a decade ago. AND?

15-10, Lin's record as a starter. He didn't win 25 games. Only about 7 games or so he captured imaginations, the rest were average or pedestrian.

You are going to break Lin's game down to some simpleton statistics?

Watching Lin play and never looking at stats was more than enough for me. The stats, actually, just support the great player my eyes saw.

If you are going to use the W-L record, there are more responsible party's on the team to blame.

EMS

Dude, get some glasses. Great player? NO. Good player? Yes. Ignore that Lin did most of his damage while dominating the ball. Ignore the massive amount of turnovers and ignore the fact that he struggled when he wansn't the main scoring option. Let me clarify, this is not me hating on Lin it's me pointint out whay many choose to ignore.

I think Lin was a great player. He changed this team around more than Melo, Stat, etc. did. He isn't a superstar or star, but he is one of those guys that just changes the chemistry and feel of the team.
Your brilliant "get some glasses" statement, though funny, doesn't really add credence to your words. Stat is making 20 million a year and I would MUCH SOONER have Lin than Stat and it isn't because of Stat's knees.

Don't get caught up in an argument of semantics. Lin did more to turn this team around than any player in recent times. I like Melo, but the team hasn't exactly become a "team" with him here. I do hope things change some in that regard though.

How many playoff games did Lin win for us?

Brilliant and well thought out comeback. I loved how you brought up him recovering from surgery... oh wait.

How about this, if not for Lin, we wouldn't have made the playoffs.

Really? Lin was there in April, when the Knicks made their playoff push? Did he win player of the month?

Forgot who won April player of the month, could you remind me if it was Lin?

I'm not taking away from what Melo did getting us there. What I am saying was, had Lin not did what he did during that 9 game or so stretch when he first came on, the season would have been in the toilet. We wouldn't have been able to even try to get in. Props to the team as a whole for getting us there, of course.

Supremecommander - I'm not taking away from the value of Melo or the team game. Understand, the team game mostly dissapeared for a while with Melo out there and I'm not hating. It was a big complaint on the boards and basically has followed Melo around his whole career. I do see him changing now. I'm just talking about Lin here cause that is this thread and he seemed to bring the team together. He wasn't scoring 40 points a night and taking over, he was scoring at a good clip and getting a good amount of assists. Again, regardless of the STats, what I witnessed, what we as Knick fans witnessed was really special. There is a reason Lin brought so many new fans to the game. It wasn't just this unknown Asian cat, it was how he inspired the team, brought team ball, etc.

fair enough... we're actually closer on our position than I though. Melo definitely played like **** for large stretches last season. I thought ultimately he performed well though, when you think about him having to play point forward and power forward

Agreed. I was a "ME"lo hater for those stretches last year but I remained open to him. He has talent, he just had to play more team oriented and he did. There was that stretch right before the playoffs (I think) where he was just playing so well and dishing the ball. It was effortless. But come the playoffs no one else was performing it was back to ISO ball, no choice really.

The problem with being Pro Lin is that people think you are anti Melo, or the like.

My whole point can be summarized really easily. If I was the GM we would have basically the team we have plus Lin. That, imo, would give us the best chance against Miami and OKC. I do think, if our chemistry comes together we can challenge. But we are in a tight place. Miami won last year with no Bosh. If one of Melo, Stat or Chandler go down, I think our playoffs are finished (again). With Lin here, I'd say we are mostly ok as he can score and dish. Lin was like a pay for itself insurance policy (with the money he brought to MSG).

Only problem is Lin couldn't do it against elite competition or good defensive teams. The Lakers game, he was mostly taking Derek Fisher and Steve Blake to the hole. He struggled against Jose Calderon and Greivis Vasquez. Rose torched him for 32, Deron annihilated him the 2nd game, and Tony Parker blew by him at will. And I didn't even bring up the Miami game.

I think the Lin streak started against Deron Williams. To be fair, Lin was played wayyyyyyyyy too many minutes. He was exhausted. Look at how great his defense was before those minutes got the best of him, as well as that injury killing him for the last 12 games (happened against Dallas it looks like). Didn't he have the game winner over Calderon?

Deron had a personal Vendetta that game and is an all star. He can light anyone up. Rose can torch anyone as well. Should that really bother us? I mean you are comparing Lin against those guys? They are max cats and Lin is making 5 + 5 + 15 million. Don't lose sight of that and just focus on the amount that last year, as the first two years are bargains. We are talking about a guy who is just starting off in the NBA and did what he did and you are comparing him against the cream of the crop? That is not fair in many ways - experience, age, salary, etc.

You can't ignore the $15 million! Lin is absoultelty worth $5 mill a year but that $15 million pay day is the problem. You're going to get compored to the cream of the crop when you're getting a pay day on par with the cream of the crop.

earthmansurfer wrote:

blkexec wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

Knicksfan wrote:Im starting to wonder if this Lin situation will take the fun and excitement out of what seems to be a promising 2012-2013 season. I know its still a recent issue and some fans are mad, but do we really have to keep dissecting every single aspect of the Lin decision? People have pretty much stated where they stand on this and its probable that those who hate management for the decision will still hate them and those who defend the decision will still do it.

I really hope next season isn't overshadowed by this because we might have the strongest Knicks team we've had in more than a decade.

I think no matter how well the team plays (and I do think we will have a GREAT team) the Lin thing will hang over our heads. A lot depends on how he plays in Houston. I think he clearly puts up better numbers there than he would here (due to no Melo, Stat, etc.) and it's going to be tough in that regard.

The thing that will go down as "The night NY Died, Part II", will be if we have one serious injury to Stat or Melo - Our season will be finished. Remember, Stat is coming off of two years of back injuries. We won't hear the end of it, and to be honest, I will be one of those pointing it out. But I am rooting for the team regardless. Still, Lin was an insurance policy and then some, that paid for itself mind you.

I just think the Lin thing was personal and not financial and that our best chance of winning a championship is to have 3 players of Stat, Melo and Lins caliber. Now we have two, if one goes down, we have one. Miami has three of those players, one in Lebron that almost is like have two great players. And they are a great defensive team, it will be interesting to see how we play against them now in a 7 game series. We just don't have the speed from the PG position - both defending and scoring the ball. And we don't really have anyone outside of Melo that is up there (and consistent - JR can do it here and there.)

I think Lin will always put up better numbers....You usually do that each year, if you work on your craft as a young NBA player. What does that have to do with winning a championship right now? Stats means nothing without a ring. Lin's best chance of winning a ring was with NY. And that would've been from the bench, cheering on Kidd (with a 25 million dollar chant) in the 4th quarter. But that boat has sailed off now and he's not thinking about winning a championship for us NY fans....He's thinking about himself, going from sleeping on the couch to buying a large brick home, with his NEW MONEY HUNGRY agent and that 25 million dollar pay raise and huge playing time so he can continue to fill up his stats and tear his other knee.

He even said it himself...Linsanity started to get to his head. He had different priorities with his own personal career branding, holding hands with Tebow, spreading love and happiness (James Brown). We need players focused on winning a championship, not individual accolades. Lebron and company took a pay cut to win a championship, not to increase their branding....

What happened the last time Lin played heavy minutes under Dantoni? Beware of Linsanity's health, and stability, playing 40 minutes a game, with a target on your back, and old knick fans waiting and media waiting for him to fail.... He's no longer a sleeper or that Lin guy that almost got cut. He's paid like an NBA starter. Solid players will destroy Lin, similar to what Deron Williams did. Average to below average players will use Lin to prove that they belong in the NBA, even at half the price of Lin's contract. He will get muscled in the post and abused on those hard drives in the paint. Unless people are saying hes the next Alan Iverson (which I hope not)....He's not built for the slashing game, against NBA bigs all season, playing 40 minutes a game on a team with no talent.

I can't wait til mid season. I'm just going to sit back and watch all these Lin lovers reverse everything they are saying right now. Lin doesn't have super human powers people. This is not some super hero movie. He's a decent combo guard / tweener (not even a pg) with a great skill at getting to the basket. Other than that, he's just a great story, and a great person. I really don't understand all the hype. And maybe because I've played with and against guards all the time with talent similar and better than Lin. Melo is the same way....If we missed on adding Melo, most people would be all over Dolan, just like the Lin issue, including me. Once you become a knick, you are family in my eyes. Everybody else are enemies! If you're a real Knick fan, you understand.

I agree that stats mean nothing and it is about winning a championship ultimately. I've actually said that regarding Lin before.

We never made him an offer. Do you understand that? We should have made him the max we could 6X4 for 24 million. But our camp was talking about 15 million an article stated. (over 3 years). We didn't want him. The fans just liked Lin more than Melo and Woodson and Dolan. I think they feared that, really. Who runs the team, Lin or the others?

I don't see liking him as being a "Lin Lover". I mean, that trivializes what he did and makes people who admire his talent more like cheerleaders and blind followers. I am not a blind follower of Lin nor the Knicks. Hence, me liking the team but also speaking out against letting him walk. We need not all be grouped into one camp or another - too much like politics.

Tell me, what is the difference between being a "real American" and a "real Knick fan"? Must you follow blindly with both? Look what that did to the Germans. Always, always, things should be about truth and not blind following, which is very very dangerous. You can't compartmentalize truth to only "important" issues.

Lin wasn't just a great story, he was arguably the best story (of it's kind) in the history of the NBA, which gets back to my statement of who is running things.

I can't wait to the playoffs, forget mid-season. That is when it will really matter for this team. If Lin has a better year than our PG's AND we don't win a championship... oh boy...

We should've made him the max? For a player with 25 games on his resume. A player that got torched when Deron Williams and the HEAT TEAM made him a wanted man? For a player that was on his way out of the league, on 3 teams in 2 yrs with garbage time minutes sitting at the end of the bench? A player picked up to help their practice squad get a workout? Max dollars for a player that clearly exceled in Dantoni's system ONLY, while playing with roll players? So basically, we should've made the same bone head moves like bidding against ourselves. Like giving Jerome James money, for his Jerome-sanity stat stuffing playoff games? And how did that turn out?

Knick fans understand the bone head offer sheets Dolan has written in the past. For once, instead of bidding against himself, he allowed the market to set the price. I personally didn't see anything wrong with that. Based on history, this was a new strategy for Dolan, and I think it was a good strategy, just not played out very well. But that wasn't the problem....Lin would've been a Knick right now, if Lin didn't secretely fly his "love and happiness" azz back to Houston to negotiate a seperate poison pill contract, with the soul purpose of making it harder for the Knicks to match. (Is this somebody you give max money too? Is this showing loyality to an owner and a city that created Linsanity?) This mind you, was after Dolan was ready to match the 1st offer sheet. Dolan is clearly sending a message to everybody that he will no longer be some financial push over. He will dictate how he spends his money, and not allow these agents to use him as a financial loop hole.

But regardless of Linsanity, who is now the enemy....this was an example of Dolan flexing him muscle. Like him or love him, don't hate him...Hate the game! *** PIMPIN 101 ***

"I am not a blind follower of Lin nor the Knicks"

I wish I saw this line before typing all this. Sorry, but I only talk to Knick followers. If you like or love Lin, I have no problem with that. He's a good player. But I'm not going to cry him a river when he hits the floor hard, driving past Kidd, just to get a chest full of CRAZY EYES....and underarm pits of Camby and Chandler. Lin doesn't make the Knicks....The Knicks made Lin. And that was Dolan's message to Lin, his agent and his Tebow mania followers!

blkexec wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

blkexec wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

Knicksfan wrote:Im starting to wonder if this Lin situation will take the fun and excitement out of what seems to be a promising 2012-2013 season. I know its still a recent issue and some fans are mad, but do we really have to keep dissecting every single aspect of the Lin decision? People have pretty much stated where they stand on this and its probable that those who hate management for the decision will still hate them and those who defend the decision will still do it.

I really hope next season isn't overshadowed by this because we might have the strongest Knicks team we've had in more than a decade.

I think no matter how well the team plays (and I do think we will have a GREAT team) the Lin thing will hang over our heads. A lot depends on how he plays in Houston. I think he clearly puts up better numbers there than he would here (due to no Melo, Stat, etc.) and it's going to be tough in that regard.

The thing that will go down as "The night NY Died, Part II", will be if we have one serious injury to Stat or Melo - Our season will be finished. Remember, Stat is coming off of two years of back injuries. We won't hear the end of it, and to be honest, I will be one of those pointing it out. But I am rooting for the team regardless. Still, Lin was an insurance policy and then some, that paid for itself mind you.

I just think the Lin thing was personal and not financial and that our best chance of winning a championship is to have 3 players of Stat, Melo and Lins caliber. Now we have two, if one goes down, we have one. Miami has three of those players, one in Lebron that almost is like have two great players. And they are a great defensive team, it will be interesting to see how we play against them now in a 7 game series. We just don't have the speed from the PG position - both defending and scoring the ball. And we don't really have anyone outside of Melo that is up there (and consistent - JR can do it here and there.)

I think Lin will always put up better numbers....You usually do that each year, if you work on your craft as a young NBA player. What does that have to do with winning a championship right now? Stats means nothing without a ring. Lin's best chance of winning a ring was with NY. And that would've been from the bench, cheering on Kidd (with a 25 million dollar chant) in the 4th quarter. But that boat has sailed off now and he's not thinking about winning a championship for us NY fans....He's thinking about himself, going from sleeping on the couch to buying a large brick home, with his NEW MONEY HUNGRY agent and that 25 million dollar pay raise and huge playing time so he can continue to fill up his stats and tear his other knee.

He even said it himself...Linsanity started to get to his head. He had different priorities with his own personal career branding, holding hands with Tebow, spreading love and happiness (James Brown). We need players focused on winning a championship, not individual accolades. Lebron and company took a pay cut to win a championship, not to increase their branding....

What happened the last time Lin played heavy minutes under Dantoni? Beware of Linsanity's health, and stability, playing 40 minutes a game, with a target on your back, and old knick fans waiting and media waiting for him to fail.... He's no longer a sleeper or that Lin guy that almost got cut. He's paid like an NBA starter. Solid players will destroy Lin, similar to what Deron Williams did. Average to below average players will use Lin to prove that they belong in the NBA, even at half the price of Lin's contract. He will get muscled in the post and abused on those hard drives in the paint. Unless people are saying hes the next Alan Iverson (which I hope not)....He's not built for the slashing game, against NBA bigs all season, playing 40 minutes a game on a team with no talent.

I can't wait til mid season. I'm just going to sit back and watch all these Lin lovers reverse everything they are saying right now. Lin doesn't have super human powers people. This is not some super hero movie. He's a decent combo guard / tweener (not even a pg) with a great skill at getting to the basket. Other than that, he's just a great story, and a great person. I really don't understand all the hype. And maybe because I've played with and against guards all the time with talent similar and better than Lin. Melo is the same way....If we missed on adding Melo, most people would be all over Dolan, just like the Lin issue, including me. Once you become a knick, you are family in my eyes. Everybody else are enemies! If you're a real Knick fan, you understand.

I agree that stats mean nothing and it is about winning a championship ultimately. I've actually said that regarding Lin before.

We never made him an offer. Do you understand that? We should have made him the max we could 6X4 for 24 million. But our camp was talking about 15 million an article stated. (over 3 years). We didn't want him. The fans just liked Lin more than Melo and Woodson and Dolan. I think they feared that, really. Who runs the team, Lin or the others?

I don't see liking him as being a "Lin Lover". I mean, that trivializes what he did and makes people who admire his talent more like cheerleaders and blind followers. I am not a blind follower of Lin nor the Knicks. Hence, me liking the team but also speaking out against letting him walk. We need not all be grouped into one camp or another - too much like politics.

Tell me, what is the difference between being a "real American" and a "real Knick fan"? Must you follow blindly with both? Look what that did to the Germans. Always, always, things should be about truth and not blind following, which is very very dangerous. You can't compartmentalize truth to only "important" issues.

Lin wasn't just a great story, he was arguably the best story (of it's kind) in the history of the NBA, which gets back to my statement of who is running things.

I can't wait to the playoffs, forget mid-season. That is when it will really matter for this team. If Lin has a better year than our PG's AND we don't win a championship... oh boy...

We should've made him the max? For a player with 25 games on his resume. A player that got torched when Deron Williams and the HEAT TEAM made him a wanted man? For a player that was on his way out of the league, on 3 teams in 2 yrs with garbage time minutes sitting at the end of the bench? A player picked up to help their practice squad get a workout? Max dollars for a player that clearly exceled in Dantoni's system ONLY, while playing with roll players? So basically, we should've made the same bone head moves like bidding against ourselves. Like giving Jerome James money, for his Jerome-sanity stat stuffing playoff games? And how did that turn out?

Knick fans understand the bone head offer sheets Dolan has written in the past. For once, instead of bidding against himself, he allowed the market to set the price. I personally didn't see anything wrong with that. Based on history, this was a new strategy for Dolan, and I think it was a good strategy, just not played out very well. But that wasn't the problem....Lin would've been a Knick right now, if Lin didn't secretely fly his "love and happiness" azz back to Houston to negotiate a seperate poison pill contract, with the soul purpose of making it harder for the Knicks to match. (Is this somebody you give max money too? Is this showing loyality to an owner and a city that created Linsanity?) This mind you, was after Dolan was ready to match the 1st offer sheet. Dolan is clearly sending a message to everybody that he will no longer be some financial push over. He will dictate how he spends his money, and not allow these agents to use him as a financial loop hole.

But regardless of Linsanity, who is now the enemy....this was an example of Dolan flexing him muscle. Like him or love him, don't hate him...Hate the game! *** PIMPIN 101 ***

"I am not a blind follower of Lin nor the Knicks"

I wish I saw this line before typing all this. Sorry, but I only talk to Knick followers. If you like or love Lin, I have no problem with that. He's a good player. But I'm not going to cry him a river when he hits the floor hard, driving past Kidd, just to get a chest full of CRAZY EYES....and underarm pits of Camby and Chandler. Lin doesn't make the Knicks....The Knicks made Lin. And that was Dolan's message to Lin, his agent and his Tebow mania followers!

I didn't say to make him the max. Look at my above post - just average it out at 8, that is fair. Lin pays for his salary and the teams tax. How do you lose?

Agreed Dolan made some terrible plays in the past. But let's not put Jerome James type players in with Lin. Lin is quite unique in what he did. You can't hold it against him that he bounced around. He was a late bloomer and that off season training put him on another level. I will listen to Kobe's words, Clyde's words and some other greats. I trust what my eyes saw.

Instead of saying Dolan was going to match the offer sheet, my question is, why not just make an offer first and if Lin doesn't accept, then you at least look good in the fans eyes, Lins eyes and you made an effort. See, I think the thing is, they didn't want Lin back but not because of anything you brought up. Rather due to Lins popularity - who is running things?

CashMoney wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:CashMoney - Fair enough about Stat and Melo having a training camp together.

But regarding the 15 million payday. Look, I can't ignore that just as much as you can't ignore the 2 at 5 million. The fairest thing we can do is take the average salary of 8 million. It's then fair to bring up luxury tax, but it's on the team, not Lin. That said, Lin brought in an extra 10-20 million last year (an article estimated that). Basically, he is probably going to bring in enough money to pay for his contract and the teams taxes. I take that gamble or trade him in year one or two. You don't let him walk. Was Nene worth what he got paid? Denver didn't think so, but they signed him anyway and got something of value back. That is the part I don't like.

In a perfect world the actual salary would be $8 million. IMHO a bit high but reasonable. With the way Lin's contract is structured it would be difficult to trade him if it didn't work out. Lin would be in the drivers seat. He would have to agree to be traded in the first year. If he say's no it's a huge problem. We're left with a player that has a 2 Year $20.3 million dollar contract with a $14.8 due the following year. The Knicks have to match the salary, $5.8 million which is doable, but also needs the team to be able to and want to pay Lin $14.8 million. At that point you're looking at teams that have a ton of cap space which would mean that we would practically be giving him away for nothing anyway.

I 100% wanted Lin back but I can understand why the Knicks didn't. It's a huge risk for a player with not much of a track record who may or may not become an all star type player and the Rockets knew this which is why they structured the deal that way. Lin's camp knew that the Knicks were concerned about the luxury tax after having preliminary discussions about possibly front loading a contract. If Lin's camp knew you can be assured that the Rockets knew as well.

Even though the Rockets have to pay Lin the $14.8, for cap purposes the yearly average salary goes towards the cap which is around $8.4 million. If the Knicks were able to do that they probably would have. It's only around a $6.4 million difference but that the difference in paying $19 million in cap penalties compared to over $40 million. That $40 million is just on Lin's contract alone. Without Lin's contract the Knicks are going to be over the cap by at least $12 million which is probably going to cost them around $35 million in penalties. Add in Lin's $40 million in penalties that's around $75 million in cap penalties. Even for 1 year that's a huge chunk of change whether it's coming out of Dolan's pcckets or not.

We can go back on forth on this all day for the next year (it's fun ). At the end of the day, as poorly as it was handled by the Knicks and Lin's camp what ultimely screwed us was the damn CBA.

Very good assessment Cash.