When Woodson came in, the team was 18-24 and headed to the lottery. The guy had the courage to call out the best players on the team and to get them to play harder. He shouldn't be judged by the Miami series or by the plays that the team was running because this isn't necessarily his offense. He didn't do a good job with the X's and O's, but I'm willing to bring him back to see if he can because he got the team to play with more effort and won 75% of his games as coach during the regular season.

I understand the Phil Jackson hoopla. I get it. I'd take Jackson over Woodson as would anybody because the guy has 11 rings, but if he doesn't come in, who else would you take over Woodson right now? I certainly wouldn't take Jerry Sloan.

gunsnewing wrote:Blaming the players is fine. Blaming the coach who got them in the playoffs is offbase

We can say that he did a good job and still want Jax or sloan

s3231 wrote:I don't like this quote from Woodson about Lin today:

“Will he start? Only time will tell,” Woodson said.

Granted, Woodson goes on to say that Lin played at a high level and had some success this season. I just don't like how he is leaving the door open for Lin not to start. I mean, the kid only saved our season but whatever...Woodson couldn't just squash any doubt by saying that right now, Lin is absolutely the starting PG (with the "right now" part leaving the door open to change if we get a guy like Nash)?

Woodson should tell us the full lineup for next year. And first 3 guys off bench.

mrKnickShot wrote:

nixluva wrote:My problem with Woody started even when the team was winning. I will NEVER agree that a plan to just live off one guy getting ridiculously hot is a good plan for a team winning. Woody was supposed to make sure that his best players got more touches, but only Melo got more touches. Both STAT and Tyson are more efficient scorers than Melo, with the exception of Melo's hot April, which we had to know was unsustainable. When I some of us were complaining during the wins that this was not a winning formula for this team, guys like mrknickshot, Anji etc. kept blasting us as haters. HOW'D THAT TURN OUT???

We all know that we lost Lin, but that doesn't mean you can't run better sets and have motion and ball movement to create better shots for everyone. The entire reason for running the spread offense with off the ball motion is to keep the middle open for attacking the basket!!!
You don't want the opposing D to be able to setup and stay in position. You want them to have to move and shift so that you can attack them for high % shots. You can't do that with strict Melo Ball. He's not some quick guard that can breakdown a defense by himself. So he ended up taking a lot of perimeter shots and didn't get to the line enough. That's low % BB. You want to get STAT and Tyson involved because they shoot closer to the basket and draw fouls. So not only do STAT and Tyson shoot a higher % from the floor, but they get to the Free Throw line too, which is even higher %.

So my concern about Woody is will he be capable of figuring out how to use STAT, Melo and Tyson? He certainly failed at doing that this go round. People are putting too much into the 18-6. It's a historical fact that often coaches get a boost from the coaching change and teams will go on a run but eventually settle back down into the mean. Woody had the coaching change Bump and Melo got HOT during April. Those things combined were fools gold. It wasn't real. That's not a winning formula for a normal 82 game schedule!!! Woody still has a problem similar to what MDA faced. His team plays best in a different style from that of his best player. The rest of the team thrives in uptempo, spread offense with PnR and ball movement and Melo thrives in ISO. That's a structural problem IMO. MDA wanted Melo to adjust a bit and I don't believe he was wrong. PJax would also want Melo to adjust IMO. Not totally change, but realize that the team has to be involved for most of the game and then when it's crunchtime Melo can get more ISO plays to seal a win.

It worked for 18-6 and for every win - blah blah blah blah blah in the game thread and after - was just the usual annoyance that we are accustom to

SEE? I WAS RIGHT IT WAS A BAD RECIPEE - WE LOST!

uhhh - we lost to the MIAMI HEAT with half are team gone to injury

YUP - you were right

Just like the Linsanity schedule - you completely don't get it

You know you really do need to learn how to make a convincing argument. Why don't you explain to me how what i'm saying is wrong in terms of the basketball specific merits of what i've been saying? It's just a fact that it's better for this team if they play a more team oriented style rather than ISO Melo. Don't use the 18-6 close to the season under Woody as some evidence that ISO Melo is the right way to go. That was a mirage!!! We see what happens if Melo isn't completely on fire playing ISO Melo. You can't beat good teams that way. The idea is to actually win a title one day.

What is the point of having STAT and Tyson who both shoot over 50% if you aren't going to use them? STAT was 4-7 and Tyson 3-6 in the last game!!! Melo was on the floor for 42 freakin minutes and took 31 shots and had only 1 assist. Heck STAT had 1 assist and Tyson had 3!!! Woody needed to do a better job of making sure we used all of our weapons. I'm concerned that based on Woodson's entire career and his time as coach here that he has ABSOLUTELY NO ANSWERS for how this is going to work offensively. I love the guys moxie and style as a coach, but he seemed outmatched by Spoelstra, a guy I have no respect for as a coach.

nixluva wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

nixluva wrote:My problem with Woody started even when the team was winning. I will NEVER agree that a plan to just live off one guy getting ridiculously hot is a good plan for a team winning. Woody was supposed to make sure that his best players got more touches, but only Melo got more touches. Both STAT and Tyson are more efficient scorers than Melo, with the exception of Melo's hot April, which we had to know was unsustainable. When I some of us were complaining during the wins that this was not a winning formula for this team, guys like mrknickshot, Anji etc. kept blasting us as haters. HOW'D THAT TURN OUT???

We all know that we lost Lin, but that doesn't mean you can't run better sets and have motion and ball movement to create better shots for everyone. The entire reason for running the spread offense with off the ball motion is to keep the middle open for attacking the basket!!!
You don't want the opposing D to be able to setup and stay in position. You want them to have to move and shift so that you can attack them for high % shots. You can't do that with strict Melo Ball. He's not some quick guard that can breakdown a defense by himself. So he ended up taking a lot of perimeter shots and didn't get to the line enough. That's low % BB. You want to get STAT and Tyson involved because they shoot closer to the basket and draw fouls. So not only do STAT and Tyson shoot a higher % from the floor, but they get to the Free Throw line too, which is even higher %.

So my concern about Woody is will he be capable of figuring out how to use STAT, Melo and Tyson? He certainly failed at doing that this go round. People are putting too much into the 18-6. It's a historical fact that often coaches get a boost from the coaching change and teams will go on a run but eventually settle back down into the mean. Woody had the coaching change Bump and Melo got HOT during April. Those things combined were fools gold. It wasn't real. That's not a winning formula for a normal 82 game schedule!!! Woody still has a problem similar to what MDA faced. His team plays best in a different style from that of his best player. The rest of the team thrives in uptempo, spread offense with PnR and ball movement and Melo thrives in ISO. That's a structural problem IMO. MDA wanted Melo to adjust a bit and I don't believe he was wrong. PJax would also want Melo to adjust IMO. Not totally change, but realize that the team has to be involved for most of the game and then when it's crunchtime Melo can get more ISO plays to seal a win.

It worked for 18-6 and for every win - blah blah blah blah blah in the game thread and after - was just the usual annoyance that we are accustom to

SEE? I WAS RIGHT IT WAS A BAD RECIPEE - WE LOST!

uhhh - we lost to the MIAMI HEAT with half are team gone to injury

YUP - you were right

Just like the Linsanity schedule - you completely don't get it

You know you really do need to learn how to make a convincing argument. Why don't you explain to me how what i'm saying is wrong in terms of the basketball specific merits of what i've been saying? It's just a fact that it's better for this team if they play a more team oriented style rather than ISO Melo. Don't use the 18-6 close to the season under Woody as some evidence that ISO Melo is the right way to go. That was a mirage!!! We see what happens if Melo isn't completely on fire playing ISO Melo. You can't beat good teams that way. The idea is to actually win a title one day.

What is the point of having STAT and Tyson who both shoot over 50% if you aren't going to use them? STAT was 4-7 and Tyson 3-6 in the last game!!! Melo was on the floor for 42 freakin minutes and took 31 shots and had only 1 assist. Heck STAT had 1 assist and Tyson had 3!!! Woody needed to do a better job of making sure we used all of our weapons. I'm concerned that based on Woodson's entire career and his time as coach here that he has ABSOLUTELY NO ANSWERS for how this is going to work offensively. I love the guys moxie and style as a coach, but he seemed outmatched by Spoelstra, a guy I have no respect for as a coach.

Totally agree with Nix and will add that you know something is wrong when JR Smith is getting significantly more shots than Amare Stoudemire....who is only one of the best big men in NBA history in terms of running the pick and roll....but no, let's just stand and watch Melo/JR go iso for 90% of the game.

nixluva wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

nixluva wrote:My problem with Woody started even when the team was winning. I will NEVER agree that a plan to just live off one guy getting ridiculously hot is a good plan for a team winning. Woody was supposed to make sure that his best players got more touches, but only Melo got more touches. Both STAT and Tyson are more efficient scorers than Melo, with the exception of Melo's hot April, which we had to know was unsustainable. When I some of us were complaining during the wins that this was not a winning formula for this team, guys like mrknickshot, Anji etc. kept blasting us as haters. HOW'D THAT TURN OUT???

We all know that we lost Lin, but that doesn't mean you can't run better sets and have motion and ball movement to create better shots for everyone. The entire reason for running the spread offense with off the ball motion is to keep the middle open for attacking the basket!!!
You don't want the opposing D to be able to setup and stay in position. You want them to have to move and shift so that you can attack them for high % shots. You can't do that with strict Melo Ball. He's not some quick guard that can breakdown a defense by himself. So he ended up taking a lot of perimeter shots and didn't get to the line enough. That's low % BB. You want to get STAT and Tyson involved because they shoot closer to the basket and draw fouls. So not only do STAT and Tyson shoot a higher % from the floor, but they get to the Free Throw line too, which is even higher %.

So my concern about Woody is will he be capable of figuring out how to use STAT, Melo and Tyson? He certainly failed at doing that this go round. People are putting too much into the 18-6. It's a historical fact that often coaches get a boost from the coaching change and teams will go on a run but eventually settle back down into the mean. Woody had the coaching change Bump and Melo got HOT during April. Those things combined were fools gold. It wasn't real. That's not a winning formula for a normal 82 game schedule!!! Woody still has a problem similar to what MDA faced. His team plays best in a different style from that of his best player. The rest of the team thrives in uptempo, spread offense with PnR and ball movement and Melo thrives in ISO. That's a structural problem IMO. MDA wanted Melo to adjust a bit and I don't believe he was wrong. PJax would also want Melo to adjust IMO. Not totally change, but realize that the team has to be involved for most of the game and then when it's crunchtime Melo can get more ISO plays to seal a win.

It worked for 18-6 and for every win - blah blah blah blah blah in the game thread and after - was just the usual annoyance that we are accustom to

SEE? I WAS RIGHT IT WAS A BAD RECIPEE - WE LOST!

uhhh - we lost to the MIAMI HEAT with half are team gone to injury

YUP - you were right

Just like the Linsanity schedule - you completely don't get it

You know you really do need to learn how to make a convincing argument. Why don't you explain to me how what i'm saying is wrong in terms of the basketball specific merits of what i've been saying? It's just a fact that it's better for this team if they play a more team oriented style rather than ISO Melo. Don't use the 18-6 close to the season under Woody as some evidence that ISO Melo is the right way to go. That was a mirage!!! We see what happens if Melo isn't completely on fire playing ISO Melo. You can't beat good teams that way. The idea is to actually win a title one day.

What is the point of having STAT and Tyson who both shoot over 50% if you aren't going to use them? STAT was 4-7 and Tyson 3-6 in the last game!!! Melo was on the floor for 42 freakin minutes and took 31 shots and had only 1 assist. Heck STAT had 1 assist and Tyson had 3!!! Woody needed to do a better job of making sure we used all of our weapons. I'm concerned that based on Woodson's entire career and his time as coach here that he has ABSOLUTELY NO ANSWERS for how this is going to work offensively. I love the guys moxie and style as a coach, but he seemed outmatched by Spoelstra, a guy I have no respect for as a coach.

Arguing is what I do for a living - don't tell me how to make convincing arguments. It is important to argue down to your competition.

With that said, when communicating with an illogical person who keeps regurgitating the same BS talking points and just does not get past his tunnel vision, posturing as opposed to convincing arguments is deemed far more affective since convincing arguments are worthless and a waste of valuable time and energy.

When you keep saying things like "the knicks were winning without Melo and when he came back they STOPPED WINNING", I lose all faith in your logical and analytical reasoning. When one asks why you intentionally ignore the schedule, you are off running like Forrest Gump.

Not everyone is cut out for logic and analysis. Rain Man wasn't but that does not mean he was a dummy.

misterearl wrote:Running Plays

gunsnewing wrote:

Clean wrote:I like what Woody did during the regular season. My problem with him is he forgets to run plays for other people besides Melo. He is not good making adjustments in the playoffs. We made the same mistakes every game with the exception being that melo got the ball on the wing a little more. The team had no idea how to use a damn zone! The one thing that can be kryptonite to the heat and we could not use it. Don't get me wrong, if a clear upgrade is not available I would love to have woody back. I just hope woody grows as a coach.

Run plays for who Novak? Who can even get open after a screen because he is not quick enough against a lightning quick miami defense? Lin's penetration will help a little.

Run plays for Landry Fields?

Smith had a ton of plays run for him and he shot 3-15!

So who exactly are we running plays for other than Melo, Amare, Smith and Chandler on occasion???

Besides, this is not football where plays are scripted in precise detail.

Basketball "plays" require a lead guard who can improvise on the fly.

We could use one.

Thats it in a nutshell. We were void of an orchestrator the moment Lin went down . Lin was the only one (besides Melo a times) who could get into the paint, draw defenders and get open looks for other players.

y2zipper wrote:Here's the thing with the X's and O's argument: does anybody actually think Mike Woodson had enough time to implement his own offense?

The basketball scientists on here tell me he did - because it was so simple: Melo-ISO.