jrodmc wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

VCoug wrote:

ShellTopAdidas wrote:

MS wrote:Action stop making excuses for Melo. The guy has sucked this year. No debate. Have we won? No. Has he been a leader? No. Does he play hard every night? No. Did he come into the season in great shape. No. Have the Knicks been one of the most dissapointing teams in the entire league. Yes.

If he has the shot with the game on the line he takes it period. If you're playing Denver and your upset that Gallo is outplaying your bitch ass and your force a game winner with three guys on you fading away you get what you deserve.

So until he plays like a man, he gets what he gets. You want the fame, you want the money, you deliver. Period.

If you're a superstar you lead. Every other prime time player does it, we expect it.

Exactly!!! I kept asking, what has Melo done since he's got here except cause chaos between, coaches, players, and fans? The players we gave up would give you 100% every night no matter what. This dude sulks when things not going his way? After gutting our whole roster to bring you here, you doing want to put forth any effort cause the system doesn't fit your game? Really???

Have you seen Ray Felton this year?

Have you seen Moz's stat line this year? 2011-12 Statistics: PPG 5.6 RPG 4.40 APG 0.5 EFF + 7.88
Have you seen the great year Wilson had in China?
Have you seen this:

PPG 15.2 RPG 4.90 APG 2.6 EFF + 15.94

PPG 20.6 RPG 5.80 APG 3.9 EFF + 17.19

Gut the roster indeed. I'm sure we'd be battling for the third seed right now if not for that stupid Melo trade.

When are you haters going to wake up and smell the Nuggetty sphincter?

This has to be the most misguided statistical analysis I've seen in a long time.

Yes, of course. Up and coming talent; tell me what is Ray Felton doing right now? How's his hustle and non-sulking attitude working out in the league right now?

And Moz, I'm sure we'd rather have another year of cap space flex and his fabulous production then TC, right? Or suppose we kept Moz? Is a third rate C really helping your argument even if TC comes here to play with nobody?

Let's skip Wilson, since we all realize CBA statistics are drastically underrated.

That leaves us a simple head to head with everyone's favorite HOF'er, Gallo.

Show me all the intagibles that offset those simple numbers. List them for me. Tell me how the singular talent of a relatively poor man's Toni Kukoc and another year of cap space flex was going to get you to the promised land any time sooner than we already are?

Your response is probably the most insightful analysis I've ever read on this board.

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

VCoug wrote:

ShellTopAdidas wrote:

MS wrote:Action stop making excuses for Melo. The guy has sucked this year. No debate. Have we won? No. Has he been a leader? No. Does he play hard every night? No. Did he come into the season in great shape. No. Have the Knicks been one of the most dissapointing teams in the entire league. Yes.

If he has the shot with the game on the line he takes it period. If you're playing Denver and your upset that Gallo is outplaying your bitch ass and your force a game winner with three guys on you fading away you get what you deserve.

So until he plays like a man, he gets what he gets. You want the fame, you want the money, you deliver. Period.

If you're a superstar you lead. Every other prime time player does it, we expect it.

Exactly!!! I kept asking, what has Melo done since he's got here except cause chaos between, coaches, players, and fans? The players we gave up would give you 100% every night no matter what. This dude sulks when things not going his way? After gutting our whole roster to bring you here, you doing want to put forth any effort cause the system doesn't fit your game? Really???

Have you seen Ray Felton this year?

Have you seen Moz's stat line this year? 2011-12 Statistics: PPG 5.6 RPG 4.40 APG 0.5 EFF + 7.88
Have you seen the great year Wilson had in China?
Have you seen this:

PPG 15.2 RPG 4.90 APG 2.6 EFF + 15.94

PPG 20.6 RPG 5.80 APG 3.9 EFF + 17.19

Gut the roster indeed. I'm sure we'd be battling for the third seed right now if not for that stupid Melo trade.

When are you haters going to wake up and smell the Nuggetty sphincter?

This has to be the most misguided statistical analysis I've seen in a long time.

Yes, of course. Up and coming talent; tell me what is Ray Felton doing right now? How's his hustle and non-sulking attitude working out in the league right now?

And Moz, I'm sure we'd rather have another year of cap space flex and his fabulous production then TC, right? Or suppose we kept Moz? Is a third rate C really helping your argument even if TC comes here to play with nobody?

Let's skip Wilson, since we all realize CBA statistics are drastically underrated.

That leaves us a simple head to head with everyone's favorite HOF'er, Gallo.

Show me all the intagibles that offset those simple numbers. List them for me. Tell me how the singular talent of a relatively poor man's Toni Kukoc and another year of cap space flex was going to get you to the promised land any time sooner than we already are?

Your response is probably the most insightful analysis I've ever read on this board.

I've already posted the stats and had in depth discussions of them. When you look at the right statistics (and win shares is the best), Gallo is a significantly better player than Melo and he alone should have never been traded for Melo. The fact that we added more trade assets and draft picks just makes it worse. And the teams' records and players' individual performances over the past 56 weeks confirm my interpretation, not yours. Even guys like Nixluva and Fish have come around now.

Gallo for MVP, MIP, 1st Team All NBA and Hall of Fame!

crzymdups wrote:

misterearl wrote:nixluva - TripleThreat can take a nap.

Balance and passion.

Knicks win.

yep yep.

also, we're seeing fewer questions about melo and amar'e co-existing now. tonight was the first night i can remember melo to amar'e for a dunk and then amar'e to melo for a dunk a few plays later. they're finally playing together.

it was astounding to me that MDA couldn't get them to play together well...

I don't think it's about MDA, it's about Carmelo trying to prove it was MDA's fault.

Ever hear of the phrase 'regression to the mean'? Wait for it, it will happen. Carmelo is not a 2 way player, never has been, never will be.

jrodmc wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

VCoug wrote:

ShellTopAdidas wrote:

MS wrote:Action stop making excuses for Melo. The guy has sucked this year. No debate. Have we won? No. Has he been a leader? No. Does he play hard every night? No. Did he come into the season in great shape. No. Have the Knicks been one of the most dissapointing teams in the entire league. Yes.

If he has the shot with the game on the line he takes it period. If you're playing Denver and your upset that Gallo is outplaying your bitch ass and your force a game winner with three guys on you fading away you get what you deserve.

So until he plays like a man, he gets what he gets. You want the fame, you want the money, you deliver. Period.

If you're a superstar you lead. Every other prime time player does it, we expect it.

Exactly!!! I kept asking, what has Melo done since he's got here except cause chaos between, coaches, players, and fans? The players we gave up would give you 100% every night no matter what. This dude sulks when things not going his way? After gutting our whole roster to bring you here, you doing want to put forth any effort cause the system doesn't fit your game? Really???

Have you seen Ray Felton this year?

Have you seen Moz's stat line this year? 2011-12 Statistics: PPG 5.6 RPG 4.40 APG 0.5 EFF + 7.88
Have you seen the great year Wilson had in China?
Have you seen this:

PPG 15.2 RPG 4.90 APG 2.6 EFF + 15.94

PPG 20.6 RPG 5.80 APG 3.9 EFF + 17.19

Gut the roster indeed. I'm sure we'd be battling for the third seed right now if not for that stupid Melo trade.

When are you haters going to wake up and smell the Nuggetty sphincter?

This has to be the most misguided statistical analysis I've seen in a long time.

Yes, of course. Up and coming talent; tell me what is Ray Felton doing right now? How's his hustle and non-sulking attitude working out in the league right now?

And Moz, I'm sure we'd rather have another year of cap space flex and his fabulous production then TC, right? Or suppose we kept Moz? Is a third rate C really helping your argument even if TC comes here to play with nobody?

Let's skip Wilson, since we all realize CBA statistics are drastically underrated.

That leaves us a simple head to head with everyone's favorite HOF'er, Gallo.

Show me all the intagibles that offset those simple numbers. List them for me. Tell me how the singular talent of a relatively poor man's Toni Kukoc and another year of cap space flex was going to get you to the promised land any time sooner than we already are?

Your response is probably the most insightful analysis I've ever read on this board.

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

VCoug wrote:

ShellTopAdidas wrote:

MS wrote:Action stop making excuses for Melo. The guy has sucked this year. No debate. Have we won? No. Has he been a leader? No. Does he play hard every night? No. Did he come into the season in great shape. No. Have the Knicks been one of the most dissapointing teams in the entire league. Yes.

If he has the shot with the game on the line he takes it period. If you're playing Denver and your upset that Gallo is outplaying your bitch ass and your force a game winner with three guys on you fading away you get what you deserve.

So until he plays like a man, he gets what he gets. You want the fame, you want the money, you deliver. Period.

If you're a superstar you lead. Every other prime time player does it, we expect it.

Exactly!!! I kept asking, what has Melo done since he's got here except cause chaos between, coaches, players, and fans? The players we gave up would give you 100% every night no matter what. This dude sulks when things not going his way? After gutting our whole roster to bring you here, you doing want to put forth any effort cause the system doesn't fit your game? Really???

Have you seen Ray Felton this year?

Have you seen Moz's stat line this year? 2011-12 Statistics: PPG 5.6 RPG 4.40 APG 0.5 EFF + 7.88
Have you seen the great year Wilson had in China?
Have you seen this:

PPG 15.2 RPG 4.90 APG 2.6 EFF + 15.94

PPG 20.6 RPG 5.80 APG 3.9 EFF + 17.19

Gut the roster indeed. I'm sure we'd be battling for the third seed right now if not for that stupid Melo trade.

When are you haters going to wake up and smell the Nuggetty sphincter?

This has to be the most misguided statistical analysis I've seen in a long time.

Yes, of course. Up and coming talent; tell me what is Ray Felton doing right now? How's his hustle and non-sulking attitude working out in the league right now?

And Moz, I'm sure we'd rather have another year of cap space flex and his fabulous production then TC, right? Or suppose we kept Moz? Is a third rate C really helping your argument even if TC comes here to play with nobody?

Let's skip Wilson, since we all realize CBA statistics are drastically underrated.

That leaves us a simple head to head with everyone's favorite HOF'er, Gallo.

Show me all the intagibles that offset those simple numbers. List them for me. Tell me how the singular talent of a relatively poor man's Toni Kukoc and another year of cap space flex was going to get you to the promised land any time sooner than we already are?

Your response is probably the most insightful analysis I've ever read on this board.

I've already posted the stats and had in depth discussions of them. When you look at the right statistics (and win shares is the best), Gallo is a significantly better player than Melo and he alone should have never been traded for Melo. The fact that we added more trade assets and draft picks just makes it worse. And the teams' records and players' individual performances over the past 56 weeks confirm my interpretation, not yours. Even guys like Nixluva and Fish have come around now.

Yes, the "best" statistic agrees with your interpretation. How convenient. And that equates to Toni Kukoc 2 > Melo. Is anyone on the planet outside of your local cadre of Melo haters going to honestly argue that anyone would have not traded Gallo straight up for Melo??? Seriously?
You talk about trade assets that amount to what? Who were you going to get for those trade assets? Please tell me. You don't because you can't.
You whine over draft picks. Were you going to spend the last year and half posting about how happy you were not making a dent in the playoffs (provided you actually got there with Stat breaking down at the end of last season) so that those picks would actually amount to anything? Or were you banking on IT's off-court presence to find you another cache of Gallo/Moz/Wilson with those picks?
Team outcomes: Denver won one playoff game but was outsted in the first round, same as us. One playoff game. Congratulations. And in the one game your new favorite team won, who was the star? Was it Moz? Was it Ray? Surely Wilson or Gallo right? No, it was Ty Lawson!
Again, how do you measure stats? Do you combine the stats of all four of your valuable trade assets for 56 weeks and compare them to Melo's? That's a very astute statistical analysis and an interesting use of the concept of "individual performances".

Glad to see you're increasing the hate club membership.

It imagine it surely will suck for you if the win streak continues.

Some of you guys are making it seem like we were getting our ass kicked by everyone losing by 20pts and now all of a sudden are killing everyone by 20pts. Portland, Indy, and Toronto aren't exactly Boston, Dallas, San Antoni, Chicago either.

Now while the effort is greater the difference isn't as exaggerated as people are making it out to be. The difference is the effort is sustained for longer periods of time then before. The reason its sustained longer is because of more discipline with the ball. We aren't turning the ball over as much any more, because of more confidence within the offense. In the past we would have stretches of solid defense but turn the ball over so much on offense that we would give opponents so many more opportunities to score on us and they did which is exactly what happen in Philly.

Over the last 4 games we have turned the ball over on average 11 times per game which would equate to the 2nd best in the NBA behind Philly if we did it all season.

fishmike wrote:jrod... the knocks on Melo are legit.

Knicks had a better record without him last year and this year as well. You could even say he twice ruined the chemistry. Last year the Knicks were coming along pretty well before the Melo drama. This year he single handedly ended Linsanity.

Melo is easily the most talented and valuable player in that trade. That being said is it ridiculous to say that Gallo was a better fit for this team? Despite being a less talented and productive player? I would say Gallo certainly was, at least short term.

Alot of fans really enjoyed getting behind last years Knicks. That team was loaded w/ good guys, good stories and players with upside. They were winning and had beaten some elite teams along the way. Melo came in and really didnt impress before getting swept in round 1 by the Celtics.

Also after the trade he ensured he got the most money possible killing the chance for a 3rd max guy like CP3 or what the Heat did. Now the Knicks got very lucky with the amnesty provision allowing them to sign Chandler, but that was all after Melo signed.

I recognize Melo's talent and what he could mean to the Knicks. Also whats done is done. Im patient. Im the exception with that around here.

Since anyone who doesnt immediatly recognize Melo as a superstar is labelled a HATER here let me ask you this:

Lets just say I dont know much about Melo. Seen him play a few times, highlights etc. but I follow the Knicks closely. Watch every game, go to 4-5 games a year... you get the idea.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Melo lovers and supports... PLEASE tell me ONE THING he's done since being here that would make me a fan of this guy?

Big playoff horse? swept
All about team? Contract first
Good attitude? Got first coach played for here fired
Made the team better? More wins without him
Can play with another star? Unless the last 3 games changes everything no... not yet.
Hotty wife with glorious funbags? Ok keep him

Im sorry, but if your a fan of this guy the best you have right now to sell is some warm kool-aid with no sugar added yet. This guy has a LOT to prove, and even more to prove here.

You know the team leader that takes control and gets us over the hump in every tough game. Helps lead by example. So far in the last 4 games he's really increased his effort level. I'm glad about that. I hope it continues. I also hope he gets his game back and becomes a more efficient player, but for now the effort level on both ends is very good. Thing is that Melo has to do this for another 21 games plus the playoffs. Will he do it? What about coming into camp in the best shape of his life next year? That would be nice. I just want an Elite players commitment to his profession and this team. We'll see what he does.

mrKnickShot wrote:

fishmike wrote:jrod... the knocks on Melo are legit.

Knicks had a better record without him last year and this year as well. You could even say he twice ruined the chemistry. Last year the Knicks were coming along pretty well before the Melo drama. This year he single handedly ended Linsanity.

Melo is easily the most talented and valuable player in that trade. That being said is it ridiculous to say that Gallo was a better fit for this team? Despite being a less talented and productive player? I would say Gallo certainly was, at least short term.

Alot of fans really enjoyed getting behind last years Knicks. That team was loaded w/ good guys, good stories and players with upside. They were winning and had beaten some elite teams along the way. Melo came in and really didnt impress before getting swept in round 1 by the Celtics.

Also after the trade he ensured he got the most money possible killing the chance for a 3rd max guy like CP3 or what the Heat did. Now the Knicks got very lucky with the amnesty provision allowing them to sign Chandler, but that was all after Melo signed.

I recognize Melo's talent and what he could mean to the Knicks. Also whats done is done. Im patient. Im the exception with that around here.

Since anyone who doesnt immediatly recognize Melo as a superstar is labelled a HATER here let me ask you this:

Lets just say I dont know much about Melo. Seen him play a few times, highlights etc. but I follow the Knicks closely. Watch every game, go to 4-5 games a year... you get the idea.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Melo lovers and supports... PLEASE tell me ONE THING he's done since being here that would make me a fan of this guy?

Big playoff horse? swept
All about team? Contract first
Good attitude? Got first coach played for here fired
Made the team better? More wins without him
Can play with another star? Unless the last 3 games changes everything no... not yet.
Hotty wife with glorious funbags? Ok keep him

Im sorry, but if your a fan of this guy the best you have right now to sell is some warm kool-aid with no sugar added yet. This guy has a LOT to prove, and even more to prove here.

Alot of the Melo criticism of Melo (to this point) is valid. However, if Melo was tanking it and not playing well, why is Stat off the hook and all hate directed at Melo? I saw Stat putting out much less effort than Melo by a mile. He seemed completely indifferent, especially on the defensive end. At least I saw Melo trying on defense and his man to man defense was actually quite good though he lacked in team defense.

Also, the knicks did not get swept in the playoffs because of Melo who averaged 26.3 pts 10.3 rebounds and 4.8 assists. He was the only one who showed up. That is exactly why we got him because the pre trade team was not a playoff built team.

Look at the stats and Melo destroyed Paul Pierce in that series. Look at the games and who outplayed who down the stretch? Even in that super game where Melo was a monster what happened? TO in crunchtime followed by a clutch Paul Pierce shot and Melo's Knicks lose again.

Marbury had great stats here. Nobody cares. Was Melo consistent in that playoff series?

Old stuff.. I have zero interest in rehashing last year's playoff losses.

As a fan though I have the highest expectations for this team and for Melo. I expect us to compete for a title. The players are playing well. This team has depth, size, scoring, great defenders on the wing and interior, rebounding.. there is no glaring weakness. Its been an up and down season with the coaching stuff but its over now. Zero reason we cant win the division and fight with the Bull, Heat, Celtics or Magic for a title. Zero excuses either (just wait to Woodson makes some bad decision, uggg)

mrKnickShot wrote:

nixluva wrote:I have no problem with the Melo trade. It was a bit of an overpayment for him, but that is what we do in NY with Dolan. The problem is that he's yet to really be a positive impact player. Even with the recent wins, which IMO are mostly about the team as a whole. My favorite saying now is that I'm still waiting for Melo to be THE REASON we win games!

You know the team leader that takes control and gets us over the hump in every tough game. Helps lead by example. So far in the last 4 games he's really increased his effort level. I'm glad about that. I hope it continues. I also hope he gets his game back and becomes a more efficient player, but for now the effort level on both ends is very good. Thing is that Melo has to do this for another 21 games plus the playoffs. Will he do it? What about coming into camp in the best shape of his life next year? That would be nice. I just want an Elite players commitment to his profession and this team. We'll see what he does.

Is D Rose winning any games for the bulls? They seem pretty scary (or even scarier) without him too ...

very short-sighted comment man

mrKnickShot wrote:

nixluva wrote:I have no problem with the Melo trade. It was a bit of an overpayment for him, but that is what we do in NY with Dolan. The problem is that he's yet to really be a positive impact player. Even with the recent wins, which IMO are mostly about the team as a whole. My favorite saying now is that I'm still waiting for Melo to be THE REASON we win games!

You know the team leader that takes control and gets us over the hump in every tough game. Helps lead by example. So far in the last 4 games he's really increased his effort level. I'm glad about that. I hope it continues. I also hope he gets his game back and becomes a more efficient player, but for now the effort level on both ends is very good. Thing is that Melo has to do this for another 21 games plus the playoffs. Will he do it? What about coming into camp in the best shape of his life next year? That would be nice. I just want an Elite players commitment to his profession and this team. We'll see what he does.

Is D Rose winning any games for the bulls? They seem pretty scary (or even scarier) without him too ...

Now isn't this one of the silliest arguments to make? Rose is clearly a positive force when he actually plays. This is about when Melo is actually playing, we already saw that the team could win without him. My argument is that since he's come here, he's really not made a hard case that he's the straw that stirs the drink. He's just another Ice cube in the drink. He has a net negative impact in just about every stat you look at in terms of how the team does when he's on the floor. Melo is a net drag on the teams efficiency on both ends.

He's got to do better. He's got all the talent to be a more impactful player. The truth is that Melo never did know and doesn't know now what it takes to win. Coaches have been trying to teach him how to do that in the NBA and he's been resistant to what they've been trying to teach him. Coaches have been trying to teach him how to be a more efficient player, how to be a better team player and how to make better decisions. Melo is missing a ton of intangibles that make the great lead players great. His one great gift is his crunchtime shooting, but there's more to the game than that.