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Fact: This team is garbage!
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nixluva
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1/13/2012  4:42 PM
I was gonna write this long post in response, but really it's not necessary.

STAT, Melo, Shump and Tyson are about the only players who have had any consistent success this year. TD and Fields have been slumping. Last year those guys were contributing at a high level. TD was shooting 38% from 3 and Fields 40%. We really needed TD and Fields to step up and play well and they haven't. Then we had Shawne and Walker hitting too. We had Felton and CB as PG's last year and now really all we have is Shump. A rookie who isn't a pure point to begin with. He's done an admirable job being thrust into this situation. We all know he's not supposed to be the starting PG for a playoff team that's trying to get to the finals!!! Much less with almost nothing behind him. We get Jared back to help on D and hopefully we get Davis back healthy and able to contribute. Down the line this should look a lot better than it does right now. RELAX!!!

AUTOADVERT
crzymdups
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1/13/2012  4:53 PM
Gymkata wrote:
MarburyAnd1Crossover wrote:
Gymkata wrote:Would it be fair to say that last year's team was succeeding solely on Amare Soutdemire playing at an outrageous MVP level (how many straight 30+ games did he have?) I know we're front-loaded now, but wasn't that team the very defintion of "all your eggs in one basket?"

And one of these days someone will tell me which piece that we shipped to Denver was the difference between a good return and a bad return.

He was playing out of his mind, but it was a good situation for everyone. Guys were beginning to understand their roles and they were playing within these roles. There was some level of understanding between them that is necessary for a guy like Amar'e to do what he does.

That's valid, but I think we'd all agree that the team was limping a bit at the time of the deal, just two games over .500. And that record included Amare operating at a superhuman level. Just seemed unsustainable to me. And I'm not saying we split the atom with the way our team is currently constituted; I just think our nucleus has the potential to deliver a high-end squad.

agree completely.

and funniest scenario would be if Melo stayed in Denver if the trade fell through and a team of Melo, Nene, Kmart, Affalo, Lawson, Billups got back to the WCF and the mini-super-close-to-our-heart-gallo-wilson-ray-Knicks got swept in the first round again...

the same people would be bitching that we had a chance at Melo and blew it and we held on to guys who can't get it done in a big spot and we don't have a legit superstar to build around.

¿ △ ?
rvwink
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1/13/2012  5:18 PM
Gymkata wrote:
And one of these days someone will tell me which piece that we shipped to Denver was the difference between a good return and a bad return.

Looking at our roster and the salaries being paid, the question becomes how do we manage to keep a single one of those players, and still have the ability to pay Tyson Chandler what we had to pay him to get him. Here's my list.

Raymond Felton is signed for $7.5 million with Portland
Wilson Chandler was apparently asking as a free agent for something in that price range. Denver's qualifying offer was $3.1 million
Moskov is signed for $2.5 million with Denver
Galinari is signed for $4 million with Denver

Not counting our 3 highest paid players, our highest salary is Rolando Balkman at $1.675. The remaining players have salaries between $430,000 and $1.55 million. So if we wanted to sign Tyson Chandler, and we somehow still had Wilson Chandler, we would likely have had to trade Wilson Chandler to Dallas in order to have the necessary cap room.

Btw Jorts seems to me to move surprisingly well on defense. I expected a big blocky guy to be slower. He also seems to be able to pick up Mike's system alot faster than Mosgov did. I know he is not as tall as Mosgov, but he seems a lot stronger, and the outside shooting helps as well. I am wondering whether you guys still prefer Mosgov over Jorts?

ChuckBuck
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1/13/2012  5:20 PM
rvwink wrote:
Gymkata wrote:
And one of these days someone will tell me which piece that we shipped to Denver was the difference between a good return and a bad return.

Looking at our roster and the salaries being paid, the question becomes how do we manage to keep a single one of those players, and still have the ability to pay Tyson Chandler what we had to pay him to get him. Here's my list.

Raymond Felton is signed for $7.5 million with Portland
Wilson Chandler was apparently asking as a free agent for something in that price range. Denver's qualifying offer was $3.1 million
Moskov is signed for $2.5 million with Denver
Galinari is signed for $4 million with Denver

Not counting our 3 highest paid players, our highest salary is Rolando Balkman at $1.675. The remaining players have salaries between $430,000 and $1.55 million. So if we wanted to sign Tyson Chandler, and we somehow still had Wilson Chandler, we would likely have had to trade Wilson Chandler to Dallas in order to have the necessary cap room.

Btw Jorts seems to me to move surprisingly well on defense. I expected a big blocky guy to be slower. He also seems to be able to pick up Mike's system alot faster than Mosgov did. I know he is not as tall as Mosgov, but he seems a lot stronger, and the outside shooting helps as well. I am wondering whether you guys still prefer Mosgov over Jorts?

Jorts. Mozgov looked like a space cadet on D sometimes and couldn't catch a pass cleanly from Felton for like a whole month.

loweyecue
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1/13/2012  5:50 PM
Uptown wrote:
MS wrote:I just want to know if this team/organization has an actual plan. Secure a 6th seed get swept and raise ticket prices 54%. Start a war with Time Warner and up prices for MSG. Seems like it's just assemble stars to up prices without a plan.

We essentially broker down a town of Chandler, Gallo, Crawford, Lee, Zbo, lottery pick for Amare, Chandler, Melo, Shump, Fields, Douglas. Which team wins head to head right now? It sounds crazy, but I am not sure that we do.

Whats the Plan?!

Secure a legit starting Center (Check)
Secure a legit/allstar starting PF (Check)
Secure a legit allstar starting SF (Check)
Secure a legit starting PG (Check...Baron is waiting the wings)
Upgrade our backcourt, specifically our SG (Check...drafted Shumpert)

Whats next on the agenda? Strengthen our bench and evaluate the coach. Your problem is you wanted the entire plan to be executed yesterday. Unfortunately for you, this is aint NBA 2K....

Exactly. Everyone goes nuts about coaching, oddly enough we are now 7th in defensive efficiency so let's find something else to bitch and moan about. Most of the threads aren't even worth reading through.

TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
rvwink
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1/13/2012  5:55 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/13/2012  5:56 PM
Thanks Chuck, you and I agree on that choice.

Jorts lateral acceleration and ability to shuffle his feet gracefully and quickly while playing defense is surprising to me, particularly for someone carrying as much weight as he does. It will be really interesting to see how much playing time JJ gets and how much Jorts keeps.

ChuckBuck
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1/13/2012  6:08 PM
rvwink wrote:Thanks Chuck, you and I agree on that choice.

Jorts lateral acceleration and ability to shuffle his feet gracefully and quickly while playing defense is surprising to me, particularly for someone carrying as much weight as he does. It will be really interesting to see how much playing time JJ gets and how much Jorts keeps.

Jorts has great hands and anticipation without fouling too. Able to get blocks and cause jumpballs at least once or twice a game. JJ will have to play some just to spell TC, and take those charging fouls that he's good at.

CrushAlot
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1/13/2012  10:11 PM
Uptown wrote:
MS wrote:I just want to know if this team/organization has an actual plan. Secure a 6th seed get swept and raise ticket prices 54%. Start a war with Time Warner and up prices for MSG. Seems like it's just assemble stars to up prices without a plan.

We essentially broker down a town of Chandler, Gallo, Crawford, Lee, Zbo, lottery pick for Amare, Chandler, Melo, Shump, Fields, Douglas. Which team wins head to head right now? It sounds crazy, but I am not sure that we do.

Whats the Plan?!

Secure a legit starting Center (Check)
Secure a legit/allstar starting PF (Check)
Secure a legit allstar starting SF (Check)
Secure a legit starting PG (Check...Baron is waiting the wings)
Upgrade our backcourt, specifically our SG (Check...drafted Shumpert)

Whats next on the agenda? Strengthen our bench and evaluate the coach. Your problem is you wanted the entire plan to be executed yesterday. Unfortunately for you, this is aint NBA 2K....

I think the Knicks made some great moves but planning on Davis being amnestied, clearing waivers, and then signing with the Knicks could not have been part of the plan. The Knicks got lucky with Davis. They filled a huge hole getting Tyson but they created another amnestying Chauncey. Knowing that your coach relies on an at least competent point guard to run his offense, to take the chance that the team might be relying on Douglas to fill that role puts the coach in a bad spot. Davis could fix a lot of what is wrong with this team if he can get over his injuries. However, I don't think Knick management was counting on or planning for the chain of events to occur that brought Davis to the Knicks. It does help that the Knicks had created a roster that is desireable for vets to come to.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
markvmc
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1/14/2012  12:09 AM
eViL wrote:fact: this thread contains opinions.

Sez you.

rp
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1/14/2012  1:26 AM    LAST EDITED: 1/14/2012  1:27 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
Uptown wrote:
MS wrote:I just want to know if this team/organization has an actual plan. Secure a 6th seed get swept and raise ticket prices 54%. Start a war with Time Warner and up prices for MSG. Seems like it's just assemble stars to up prices without a plan.

We essentially broker down a town of Chandler, Gallo, Crawford, Lee, Zbo, lottery pick for Amare, Chandler, Melo, Shump, Fields, Douglas. Which team wins head to head right now? It sounds crazy, but I am not sure that we do.

Whats the Plan?!

Secure a legit starting Center (Check)
Secure a legit/allstar starting PF (Check)
Secure a legit allstar starting SF (Check)
Secure a legit starting PG (Check...Baron is waiting the wings)
Upgrade our backcourt, specifically our SG (Check...drafted Shumpert)

Whats next on the agenda? Strengthen our bench and evaluate the coach. Your problem is you wanted the entire plan to be executed yesterday. Unfortunately for you, this is aint NBA 2K....

I think the Knicks made some great moves but planning on Davis being amnestied, clearing waivers, and then signing with the Knicks could not have been part of the plan. The Knicks got lucky with Davis. They filled a huge hole getting Tyson but they created another amnestying Chauncey. Knowing that your coach relies on an at least competent point guard to run his offense, to take the chance that the team might be relying on Douglas to fill that role puts the coach in a bad spot. Davis could fix a lot of what is wrong with this team if he can get over his injuries. However, I don't think Knick management was counting on or planning for the chain of events to occur that brought Davis to the Knicks. It does help that the Knicks had created a roster that is desireable for vets to come to.

I hope you are right on with BD but I don't expect much. Many here think he will be the same BD they see in highlight videos.

"Failure is only postponed success as long as courage coaches ambition. The habit of persistence is the habit of victory" -Herbert Kaufman
Erniecat
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1/14/2012  2:00 AM
Right now, we are not a great team, no doubt. As Bill Parcells says, We are what our record says we are: a slightly better than .500 team.

But come on, get real. To me, our guards are so bad right now that it is absolutely stunning. I mean, to say we have the worst guards in the league does not say it strongly enough. You have to watch the games to appreciate just how lacking we are in the backcourt every single night. Fields and TD seem to get worse each night. Fields is so not a shooting guard it's not even funny. The only guard we have who should be playing is a rookie who is pretty much out of position. And finally, Shumpert came through with a stinker and we got mauled at Memphis.

So being slightly better than .500 -- even with playing a weak schedule -- is not horrible or unexpected, RELATIVELY SPEAKING.

You need to look at this team in context. We don't need a great backcourt, but we do need an NBA-caliber backcourt to be successful. Right now we do not have that. Not even close.

So personally, I am not going to worry too much about the results this season, because I know we just do not have enough to compete with the big boys. What I want is for us to improve defensively (which we have so far), then improve the offense once Davis is back.

Then, it will be up to the front office to make the appropriate changes this offseason, which will be an extremely important offseason for the Knicks.

I think it's too early to declare that Amare and Melo can't play together. Let's see how they are co-existing at the end of the season. I think with a good point guard and a good coach, we can make it work.

Barring a remarkable turnaround and a great postseason run, I do not want D'Antoni back. Who we hire is probably the biggest decision we face this summer. But we also must find a way to improve the backcourt. I would do whatever we can to get Ray Allen. I love Shumpert, but he is not a starting shooting guard yet. He is an ideal sixth man for a good team at this point.

Obviously, we need to hope Baron still has something left. He does not need to be his old self. He just needs to be a solid, heady point guard who will know how to run our offense. If he is solid this year, we bring him back and concentrate on getting a real shooter at the 2 guard.

The point is, rather than just say we suck, I do think that with clever moves this offseason we can be a great team.

DrAlphaeus
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1/14/2012  4:21 AM
I really love this board, I do. The passion for the blue and orange is so poignant? Is that the word?

Anyway, yea... we are a very flawed team. The thing that is maddening is you know that there is something that could make it the best, but what? New coach, probably. A healthy old-form Baron Davis, definitely. Shumpert was the Golden Boy and he played on a national broadcast to be joke fodder for Reggie Miller and Charles Barkley. It hurts. We'll play better games than this.

This team isn't garbage, but it sure can play like it.

Baba Booey 2016 — "It's Silly Season"
MarburyAnd1Crossover
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1/14/2012  8:12 AM
That's the word. I feel I am poignant at all times.

It's never as good nor as bad as it seems.

I would prefer not to rest our hopes on Baron Davis, but it can turn out well. This morning, I am feeling positive.

Carmelo Anthony is ANTI-BASKETBALL
Bonn1997
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1/14/2012  8:13 AM
MarburyAnd1Crossover wrote:That's the word. I feel I am poignant at all times.

It's never as good nor as bad as it seems.

I would prefer not to rest our hopes on Baron Davis, but it can turn out well. This morning, I am feeling positive.


Are you sure the past decade was not as bad as it seemed?
MarburyAnd1Crossover
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1/14/2012  8:19 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
MarburyAnd1Crossover wrote:That's the word. I feel I am poignant at all times.

It's never as good nor as bad as it seems.

I would prefer not to rest our hopes on Baron Davis, but it can turn out well. This morning, I am feeling positive.


Are you sure the past decade was not as bad as it seemed?

Hahaha, the past decade was a nightmare.

But now, with this team, it is far from the Eddy Curry days.

Carmelo Anthony is ANTI-BASKETBALL
misterearl
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1/14/2012  8:37 AM    LAST EDITED: 1/14/2012  9:20 AM
crzymdups wrote:
misterearl wrote:The Donnie Walsh Master Plan

(Correction and Upgrade)

Felton
Fields
Gallinari
Stoudemire
Tyson Chandler (Stat gets the paint back with Felton and Fields smiling at each other)

Bibby
Shumpert
Wilson Chandler
Anthony Randolph
Timofey Mozgov (quality depth, size, scoring and defense to hold leads, did someone say Minute Men?)


Jeremy Lin
Toney Douglas, resting his shoulder
Shawne Williams, who is pissed that he must work hard for minutes
Jared Jeffries for comic relief
Josh Harrellson (Gar-BAGE time is time for auditions)

Just so everyone is on the same page here - you're pining for a team that was 28-26.

And people are complaining about the Knicks beating easy teams. When the Felton/Gallo team fattened up with 13 wins in a row against easy teams.

That 13 game winning streak hides the fact that the team was under .500 in November and January. Take away that streak, when Amar'e was playing out of his mind (something we haven't seen since, including pre-Melo) and the team was 15-26.

Pine on you crazy diamond.

The Crazy Diamond Pines On At The Pine Barrons (A Donnie Walsh Master Plan Update)

Forget the 13 game wining streak crzymdups, lets look at the BALANCE SHEET from last night:

(the operative word is BALANCE)


OUR Starters

Felton (13 points and 7 assists in a loss to the Spurs)
Fields (free to move without the ball again)
Gallinari (14 points, 5 rebounds in the Miami win)
Stoudemire (the captain gets his groove back)
Tyson Chandler (playing in NYC because he wanted to play with Stoudemire, Felton promised to get him the pill)


OUR Reserves

Baron Davis (hung around in New York after the labor talks, his SAG card works in a lot of places here)
Shumpert (brought along slower)
Shawne Williams (we already KNOW Extra E can shoot it)
Anthony Randolph (averaging 7 points and 3 rebounds and shooting 54 per cent from the floor, not bad)
Timofey Mozgov (started, outplayed the Miami big men last night with 12 points, 7 rebounds, three blocks and a juicy +16 in the win)

OUR Pine Brothers

Jeremy Lin
Corey Brewer (averaging 7 points and 2 rebounds for Denver)
Wilson Chandler (MIA, he slides to guard with OUR reserves and everything is up tight - out of sight)
Jared Jeffries
Josh Harrellson


Quality depth. Yoots. Enthusiasm. Size. Trust. Scoring and defense. Minimally, 7-8 guys in double figures every night, what's not to like?

Did I mention we still have draft picks?

once a knick always a knick
Uptown
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1/14/2012  9:15 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
Uptown wrote:
MS wrote:I just want to know if this team/organization has an actual plan. Secure a 6th seed get swept and raise ticket prices 54%. Start a war with Time Warner and up prices for MSG. Seems like it's just assemble stars to up prices without a plan.

We essentially broker down a town of Chandler, Gallo, Crawford, Lee, Zbo, lottery pick for Amare, Chandler, Melo, Shump, Fields, Douglas. Which team wins head to head right now? It sounds crazy, but I am not sure that we do.

Whats the Plan?!

Secure a legit starting Center (Check)
Secure a legit/allstar starting PF (Check)
Secure a legit allstar starting SF (Check)
Secure a legit starting PG (Check...Baron is waiting the wings)
Upgrade our backcourt, specifically our SG (Check...drafted Shumpert)

Whats next on the agenda? Strengthen our bench and evaluate the coach. Your problem is you wanted the entire plan to be executed yesterday. Unfortunately for you, this is aint NBA 2K....

I think the Knicks made some great moves but planning on Davis being amnestied, clearing waivers, and then signing with the Knicks could not have been part of the plan. The Knicks got lucky with Davis. They filled a huge hole getting Tyson but they created another amnestying Chauncey. Knowing that your coach relies on an at least competent point guard to run his offense, to take the chance that the team might be relying on Douglas to fill that role puts the coach in a bad spot. Davis could fix a lot of what is wrong with this team if he can get over his injuries. However, I don't think Knick management was counting on or planning for the chain of events to occur that brought Davis to the Knicks. It does help that the Knicks had created a roster that is desireable for vets to come to.

Crush, we've discussed this already. As soon as we (the fans) heard about this amnesty rule, we (on this forum) were discussing possible Amnesty candidates and this was way before the lockout was over. Baron Davis was mentioned, here on a fan forum. If we (fans) knew it was a strong possibility that Baron and his large contract would be amnestied, dont you think a GM who is in the know and is being paid millions to knowmight have also known that it was more than a strong possibility that Baron would get amnestied? There were also leaks before the lockout that Baron was considering coming to NY before the lockout. We discussed it here. Dont you think our GM and especially our players (Tyson Chandler who is a good friend of Baron) knew that if Baron was let go, it was a good chance he would come here? Give our GM credit for securing a commitment from Baron who selected us over the home town team in L.A.

On another note, even if we didn't land Baron, what is it with you guys and this instant gratification stuff? You dont build a championship team overnight. Melo wasn't the final piece by any mean, but he was the biggest piece we've landed since Ewing. Now we have to get the complimentary pieces to surrund him with. Melo is 27-28; we have time. If we didn't land Baron, we still have the opportunity to land a pg next year. The window doesn't close in June. Relax people. The future is far brighter than it has been in a decade around here.

Uptown
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1/14/2012  9:28 AM    LAST EDITED: 1/14/2012  9:29 AM
misterearl wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
misterearl wrote:The Donnie Walsh Master Plan

(Correction and Upgrade)

Felton
Fields
Gallinari
Stoudemire
Tyson Chandler (Stat gets the paint back with Felton and Fields smiling at each other)

Bibby
Shumpert
Wilson Chandler
Anthony Randolph
Timofey Mozgov (quality depth, size, scoring and defense to hold leads, did someone say Minute Men?)


Jeremy Lin
Toney Douglas, resting his shoulder
Shawne Williams, who is pissed that he must work hard for minutes
Jared Jeffries for comic relief
Josh Harrellson (Gar-BAGE time is time for auditions)

Just so everyone is on the same page here - you're pining for a team that was 28-26.

And people are complaining about the Knicks beating easy teams. When the Felton/Gallo team fattened up with 13 wins in a row against easy teams.

That 13 game winning streak hides the fact that the team was under .500 in November and January. Take away that streak, when Amar'e was playing out of his mind (something we haven't seen since, including pre-Melo) and the team was 15-26.

Pine on you crazy diamond.

The Crazy Diamond Pines On At The Pine Barrons (A Donnie Walsh Master Plan Update)

Forget the 13 game wining streak crzymdups, lets look at the BALANCE SHEET from last night:

(the operative word is BALANCE)


OUR Starters

Felton (13 points and 7 assists in a loss to the Spurs)
Fields (free to move without the ball again)
Gallinari (14 points, 5 rebounds in the Miami win)
Stoudemire (the captain gets his groove back)
Tyson Chandler (playing in NYC because he wanted to play with Stoudemire, Felton promised to get him the pill)


OUR Reserves

Baron Davis (hung around in New York after the labor talks, his SAG card works in a lot of places here)
Shumpert (brought along slower)
Shawne Williams (we already KNOW Extra E can shoot it)
Anthony Randolph (averaging 7 points and 3 rebounds and shooting 54 per cent from the floor, not bad)
Timofey Mozgov (started, outplayed the Miami big men last night with 12 points, 7 rebounds, three blocks and a juicy +16 in the win)

OUR Pine Brothers

Jeremy Lin
Corey Brewer (averaging 7 points and 2 rebounds for Denver)
Wilson Chandler (MIA, he slides to guard with OUR reserves and everything is up tight - out of sight)
Jared Jeffries
Josh Harrellson


Quality depth. Yoots. Enthusiasm. Size. Trust. Scoring and defense. Minimally, 7-8 guys in double figures every night, what's not to like?

Did I mention we still have draft picks?

Since we are stuck in the past and cant move forward and live in the here and now, forget last years possible line up, I want to talk about the possibilities of the 1988 Knicks squad. I still cant get over how we let Bernard King walk after he worked extremely hard to rehabilitate his knee. Chekc this line up:

Our Starters

Patrick Ewing (the paint defender and up and coming offensive allstar)
Sidney Green (rebounder supreme and grunt worker)
Bernard King (One of the best scoring machines the game has ever seen with a surgically repaired knee)
Mark Jackson (Rookie of the year gem found mid-late first round)
Gerald Wilkins (killer finisher on the break and good defender on the perimeter)

Pine Brothers

Kenny "Sky" Walker
Bill Cartwright (could play twin towers at times)
Johnny Newman (suprise FA pick up and 3 point bomber)
Trent Tucker (another 3 point bomber(

That team had tremendous potential. 20+ yrs later, I still cant get over that team. Carmelo who????

Bonn1997
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1/14/2012  10:22 AM
MarburyAnd1Crossover wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
MarburyAnd1Crossover wrote:That's the word. I feel I am poignant at all times.

It's never as good nor as bad as it seems.

I would prefer not to rest our hopes on Baron Davis, but it can turn out well. This morning, I am feeling positive.


Are you sure the past decade was not as bad as it seemed?

Hahaha, the past decade was a nightmare.

But now, with this team, it is far from the Eddy Curry days.


It's definitely better than those days but by how much remains to be seen.
misterearl
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1/14/2012  10:23 AM    LAST EDITED: 1/14/2012  10:25 AM

Uptown - Once it again, it was lack of patience that did us in. The Knicks could not wait the extra year for Bernard to work his knee back into condition and the rest is history. Bernard made the all star team.

Please refresh my memory ... Why did we trade Mark Jackson AND Rod Strickland again?

once a knick always a knick
Fact: This team is garbage!

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