Childs2Dudley wrote:Don't worry mrKnickShot, this guy acted the same way with Isiah.

As usual you contribute absolutely nothing to the conversation. Go back to sleep.

mrKnickShot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:Do you read? You do exactly what I've said. Which is you use one standard which is past doesn't matter to gloss over the bad play we've had. And then you bring up things up to half a decade ago to support your arguments. You can't summarily dismiss facts that don't support your view and expect anyone to take you seriously. I'm actually trying to help you out here.

Jax or Adelman would have had this thing humming like a new car. We would not have even gotten to 65 players.

1. There have been 65 different players that this coach has had during his tenture. The reason we've had 65 diferent players is not because of MDA's coaching. It's been driven by managment's desire to build a title contender. I use the stat's from MDA's time in PHX, cuz it represents a more stable situation to gauge. You can't gauge a 3 year period in which you've had 65 different players!!! No one's ever done that before.

2. NO Jax or Adelman wouldn't have just skated thru this last 3 years. Jax wouldn't have even taken the job!!! If he did, he would've QUIT! Adelman hasn't been able to stick on the teams he's been coaching and they've won games. What makes you think he'd be able to cut it in NY the last 3 years? Both Jax and Adelman are great coaches, but they still need good circumstances to succeed.

3. MDA was brought here to coach the team we have now, but it's been a tough road getting here. We still don't have a floor leader, which is a major problem. I can assure you they never intended to end up at this point with no PG in place. They're hoping Davis can recover and be that PG.

4. MDA has a new defensive assistant in Woodson, but it's gonna take some time to get everyone on the same page. If they still aren't defending a month from now then I suspect there will be a change. IMO I think things will settle down and they'll start to gel.

Wow - you sure are feisty about him. It reminds me of a political debate when one steadfastly defends their position even when its weak because that is the side they are on. After a while it becomes less about facts and true belief and more about defending a position.

right... one side keeps repeating information, stapling it to their cause, and labels it as facts. This is done so often then it becomes accepted as fact, even though it is just an opinion regarding a dataset

nixluva wrote:Now that we get a chance to see the what the system is supposed to look like with a real PG, it underscores what the main problem has been for the last 3+ years. This team really needed a floor general. Really needed a PG that didn't just go East n West with the ball, but used the PnR and got into the teeth of the defense. Needed a PG that wasn't a Turnover machine and could get everyone in their proper positions and in good rhythm. We've been saying it for years, but it's fortunate that before they fired MDA we got a chance to see what a difference a good PG could make. Nash, Felton and now Lin are showing you that it's a good system with the right ingredients.

I've always agreed with you that the system needed a point guard but D'Antoni still did a terrible job of adjusting with the lack of one. Although it's hard to win with a Knucklehead like TD.

ramtour420 wrote:One thing, any sentence that begins with " there is nothing". Usually can be met with some strong arguement. Absolute statements are usually wrong

The system works when you have at least a competent PG running it. We didn't even have a PG at all to run the system. Now with 3 different PG's of varying experience and skills, the offense looks good. Nash was the perfect PG. Felton was a decent player but he's not some All Star! Lin is so far looking like the next best thing to Nash in this offense. All the stumbling and bumbling we saw had more to do with the lack of a PG than it did the system. It was a simple statement with a simple solution.

ramtour420 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:One thing, any sentence that begins with " there is nothing". Usually can be met with some strong arguement. Absolute statements are usually wrong

The system works when you have at least a competent PG running it. We didn't even have a PG at all to run the system. Now with 3 different PG's of varying experience and skills, the offense looks good. Nash was the perfect PG. Felton was a decent player but he's not some All Star! Lin is so far looking like the next best thing to Nash in this offense. All the stumbling and bumbling we saw had more to do with the lack of a PG than it did the system. It was a simple statement with a simple solution.

Very true. The solution makes a world of difference

Proven fact now. MDA needs at least a "decent PG" for this system to work and if you give him someone that actually has natural PG talent it can look wonderful. Wide open lanes. Wide open shots. Good motion and passing. Lin was born to play like this rather than some system where he wouldn't be able to fully use his talent. Just ask Nash how he feels about this style of play!

mrKnickShot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:One thing, any sentence that begins with " there is nothing". Usually can be met with some strong arguement. Absolute statements are usually wrong

The system works when you have at least a competent PG running it. We didn't even have a PG at all to run the system. Now with 3 different PG's of varying experience and skills, the offense looks good. Nash was the perfect PG. Felton was a decent player but he's not some All Star! Lin is so far looking like the next best thing to Nash in this offense. All the stumbling and bumbling we saw had more to do with the lack of a PG than it did the system. It was a simple statement with a simple solution.

Very true. The solution makes a world of difference

Proven fact now. MDA needs at least a "decent PG" for this system to work and if you give him someone that actually has natural PG talent it can look wonderful. Wide open lanes. Wide open shots. Good motion and passing. Lin was born to play like this rather than some system where he wouldn't be able to fully use his talent. Just ask Nash how he feels about this style of play!

Any coach that uses a simple system that the primary flow in based on the PNR, needs a PG. The offense does not look that complicated and does not take a genius.

However, when you don't have a good PG at a current time/roster, then its not the right time or team to implement such a system. Yes this works now because we have a PG, but woulda been nice if he was better about dealing with players that did not fit "HIS SYSTEM".

Who cares now. This is not about MDA and his damn system to most of us. Its about Jeremy Lin and the star that he is becoming. It's about winning.

If you dig deeper and look at the data, it's not just that Lin is talented. It's the combination of the 2 factors. Lin's talent being fully utilized in a system designed by a PG for PG's. This came up cuz people wanted MDA gone and they dissed his system as a "Gimmick" that only worked cuz of Nash. Now there's evidence that good PG's can thrive in this system and put up great numbers. FELTON WAS 17/9 in this system!!! In December Felton was at 18/10!!! You don't think this system benefits PG's and is benefited by good PG's?

mrKnickShot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:One thing, any sentence that begins with " there is nothing". Usually can be met with some strong arguement. Absolute statements are usually wrong

The system works when you have at least a competent PG running it. We didn't even have a PG at all to run the system. Now with 3 different PG's of varying experience and skills, the offense looks good. Nash was the perfect PG. Felton was a decent player but he's not some All Star! Lin is so far looking like the next best thing to Nash in this offense. All the stumbling and bumbling we saw had more to do with the lack of a PG than it did the system. It was a simple statement with a simple solution.

Very true. The solution makes a world of difference

Proven fact now. MDA needs at least a "decent PG" for this system to work and if you give him someone that actually has natural PG talent it can look wonderful. Wide open lanes. Wide open shots. Good motion and passing. Lin was born to play like this rather than some system where he wouldn't be able to fully use his talent. Just ask Nash how he feels about this style of play!

Any coach that uses a simple system that the primary flow in based on the PNR, needs a PG. The offense does not look that complicated and does not take a genius.

However, when you don't have a good PG at a current time/roster, then its not the right time or team to implement such a system. Yes this works now because we have a PG, but woulda been nice if he was better about dealing with players that did not fit "HIS SYSTEM".

Who cares now. This is not about MDA and his damn system to most of us. Its about Jeremy Lin and the star that he is becoming. It's about winning.

See that your problem right there. You have no respect for the system and think it's simple.
You say it doesn't look complicated! How many PG's have we had since MDA has been here and how many have been able to actually grasp it? Remember Billups admitted that it was the hardest thing he had to do learning the system. Duhon and Felton took a month to get comfortable. TD, Bibby and Shump couldn't do it at all. It only looks easy to you!!! Knicks signed Lin on Dec. 12th and he's been practicing and learning this system since then. What do you think they've been doing with him all this time? You think he was just sitting around doing nothing and just got up one day and had the system down? Lin put in work and the staff put in work with him.

If you dig deeper and look at the data, it's not just that Lin is talented. It's the combination of the 2 factors. Lin's talent being fully utilized in a system designed by a PG for PG's. This came up cuz people wanted MDA gone and they dissed his system as a "Gimmick" that only worked cuz of Nash. Now there's evidence that good PG's can thrive in this system and put up great numbers. FELTON WAS 17/9 in this system!!! In December Felton was at 18/10!!! You don't think this system benefits PG's and is benefited by good PG's?

Like Clyde says: "the pick and roll is the simplest and toughest play to defend. You just need players who are talented enough to run it."

Utah ran the same play every time (pretty much) but nobody could stop it because the players were too good at running it.

Nash in his prime could have played with any coach and any talented PNR finisher and a good supporting cast and he still would have been a star! Cause Nash is a STAR!

MDA is a good offensive coach but don't give him all the credit for what great players do and give him NO BLAME for what sh1tty players do. Felton did well and he was a solid PG with a monster finisher in STAT. MDA sure was part of that. Lin is really talented and just looks like he takes what the defense gives him.

Utah did not need a genius system to be indefensible.

Credit and Blame both need to be used where appropriate.

YOU STILL DON'T GET IT!!! Nash played in the NBA for 8 years before he hooked up with MDA. Never once was he considered to be MVP material. Much Less 2x MVP!!! Lin, Felton and Nash were let go by their previous teams for financial reasons, but if they had known just how good they could play they would never have let them go. If the Mavs knew that Nash could become a 2x MVP or the Bobcats, that Felton could go 17/9 they never let them go. MDA made that possible. If you can't see that he helps make it possible for guards to excel at their craft the I don't know what you are paying attention to.

We're fortunate to have Lin, but let's also remember this. If teams knew that Lin could do this he would never have been available to the Knicks!!! Here on this team in this system he's been able to make full use of his talents. Like I said, it's the combination of the player and the system and thus as i've said there was nothing wrong with the system.

You don't respect this coach which is fine, but if something like this happens more than once it's not just dumb luck. The system is not just PnR. That's cuz you don't understand what else is actually happening to make it work so well. There's more to it than that. This isn't about giving MDA all the credit. It's about recognizing that you have a good coach that really only needed a capable PG to make it all work. The system is designed to make the game easier for the players. Even if you don't have stars at every position. But you must have a PG that can run the system and that's what Lin can do.

Don't confuse the 2man game with SSOL. There's more to the system than PnR, even tho that is the primary play. There are over 100 plays in the playbook, with many variations and since I doubt you've ever looked at them you can't really comment on it. I've had the playbook for years now. A good smart PG only makes it look easy. It's like watching Peyton Manning or any great QB and seeing them hit guys all day. They make it look easy but it's not. You have to read the defense and off of what they do there are options available to you, but it's like a dance and everyone has to be in step and in rhythm and on the same page. Lin is playing within the system. He's not just making stuff up. That wouldn't work as the timing would be off as well as the spacing.

can you even fathom this team if it was the following with d'antoni coaching?

Lin / Felton
Fields / Shumpert
Gallo / Wilson
Amar'e / Jeffries / Novak
Tyson / Jorts

it just wouldn't even be fair. sigh.

my issue with d'antoni was he didn't adapt his system to melo... but i'm starting to wonder.

Anji wrote:20/20 is great, but why are Lin, Jorts and Tyson on the knicks if we have the Almighty Mozgov, Shawny and Felton??? LOL, that perfect team isn't going anywhere anyway.

Just like Mike'd isn't out of the fire because he is riding Lin for now. Because unless he actually coaches and integrates Melo and Stat in the offense, this team still isn't doing a damn thing in the future. Plus Lin begins to come back to earth like Felton did, what is the coach going to do rhen.

If this team is in playoffs, 60 pick and rolls with Lin isn't getting done. If this coach can't find ways to get the ball in to his best players hands, this team isn't doing ****.

You don't respect the system! You are dumb!

I absolutely agree with you. Yes, we know the PNR works. Its simple basketball not a complicate myriad of plays. He now has to incorporate, Lin, Chandler (PNR), Stat and Melo into the offense. Lets see the genius.

I sure hope it works out.

crzymdups wrote:the problem is this team was being built perfectly for d'antoni's system. dolan tore it down in one fell swoop.

can you even fathom this team if it was the following with d'antoni coaching?

Lin / Felton
Fields / Shumpert
Gallo / Wilson
Amar'e / Jeffries / Novak
Tyson / Jorts

it just wouldn't even be fair. sigh.

my issue with d'antoni was he didn't adapt his system to melo... but i'm starting to wonder.

Look at the Positives!

If we had Felton, we NO WAY sign Lin.
Wilson, lost to FA
Gallo, nice but no Melo
Moz, woulda been nice to have but he is averaging 5.5 pts a game. No door buster.

In the end, with Lin now, Tyson who we probably don't get if we have the pre-trade team. pieces fell into place that might not have. They can go much deeper in the playoffs with this team than the pre-trade team.

Let's enjoy it, ride it and move on.

As for STAT, he's played his entire career in this system!!! Why anyone would think MDA would have trouble integrating STAT is beyond me. The only guy that plays a style that is actually the complete opposite of what this system is about is Melo. Melo is the only one that has to buy in and play within the system. If he does that we'll be very good. Only time will tell, but I believe Melo wants to be a team player. He has to adjust to what Lin is doing now and not feel he has to force things like he did with no PG. I think he will do it.