Childs2Dudley wrote:I saw a mention of Israel just now and let us not act like they are innocent in all of this. They have their own faults. Their treatment of the Palestinian people is pathetic at best. Maybe they aren't terrorists but they certainly are not saints.

They are treating Palestinian terrorist same as we are treating Osama.
As I said it is nothing to celebrate.
Just kill them before they kill more innocent people including their own which they used like live shilds on the way to their terrorist heaven.
They must know that every rocket they fire, every suicide belt they explode, every women and child they kill will not be left without retribution.
They will be hunted all their miserable life, found and destroyed.

arkrud wrote:

Childs2Dudley wrote:I saw a mention of Israel just now and let us not act like they are innocent in all of this. They have their own faults. Their treatment of the Palestinian people is pathetic at best. Maybe they aren't terrorists but they certainly are not saints.

They are treating Palestinian terrorist same as we are treating Osama.
As I said it is nothing to celebrate.
Just kill them before they kill more innocent people including their own which they used like live shilds on the way to their terrorist heaven.
They must know that every rocket they fire, every suicide belt they explode, every women and child they kill will not be left without retribution.
They will be hunted all their miserable life, found and destroyed.

Everyone in Palestine is not a terrorist. I said they are treating Palestinian people like crap. Hammas is not Palestine. They are a terrorist group within it. Different story. At least Hammas, although another disgraceful organization, fights for a cause. They have been oppressed by Israel for decades. Palestine has no army to defend itself from Israeli insurgence.

Andrew wrote:Posted by a cousin of mine on FB:

‎"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that"

Martin Luther King, Jr

I apprecaite the cerebral aspects of this quote, but the way it is ain't the way it ought to be. I iwsh I could be there but I'm not there. And I doubt anyone truly is.

There was a great sense of relief that I and many others felt when this news hit. Maybe that was achieved more due to closure than bin Laden's death, but latter sort of caused the former.

Maybe I'm the darkest bit of the night devoid of stars, but I'm glad bin Laden's time has ended. I'm glad that this is the beginning of the end. I'm glad I can let go of some of the hurt. And I'm glad some of my boys will start coming home.

BigSm00th wrote: i did not go outside and start hooting and hollering and waving the american flag like hacksaw jim duggan

A HackSaw Jim Duggun reference!!!!

*Slow CLAP* Bravo good Sir Bravo */Slow Clap*

Ummm, yeah that is probably the highlight of the thread for me(MLK fake quote a close third).

Life is a conundrum, because death is so much a part of living. The man who assert his right to life with a gun invokes fighting. The man who asserts his right to life with peace invokes fighting. It does matter how far removed you are, you take to live because that is ****ed up system we where all born into.

So anytime some one who was willing to take from is killed, it is always a joyous occasion.

Silverfuel wrote:

PresIke wrote:
one major difference i see is that bin laden overtly saw everyone against him as an enemy (although sounds a bit like bush's "you're with us or you're against us." no?), however at what point does collateral damage become reasonable when trying to get one man? i'll repeat, so many thousands of people have died in the hunt for this "anti-christ." you think they all believe it's okay to have sacrificed so many human lives as a result, especially when it is quite clear that his death is by no means the end of this "war" against a mostly invisible enemy that has no borders or normal form of functioning state to dismantle.

this outlines some of the reason bin laden's death is a much different situation. hitler was also a much greater threat than bin laden is because the nazis were on the verge of taking over all of europe (which bin laden never came even remotely close to achieving). bin laden was more of a symbolic leader to those that follow him. when hitler was taken out, world war ii (on the european front) was over. the same when tojo surrendered in japan. is the "war" we are fighting against bin laden and his followers now over? hardly.

however, there are similarities, as mentioned earlier, to what motivated their behavior, because hitler actually rose to power in similar ways to bin laden.

but overall, sorry, this is nothing to get too excited about. if by some miracle this leads to the end of these wars that have ruined so many things in the world and in this country as we spend ourselves into oblivion and ruin with so many military around the world, while our economy is still suffering, then i'll say it was worth the praise.

regardless, i am not saying that the u.s. should "turn the other cheek" either. read what i first wrote.

they attempted to apprehend him, sounds like he tried to fight back, he was shot and killed. that's what happens in police raids, and is part of the deal. however, this does not mean i need to celebrate the death with all of my might, especially considering the context.

send closk

Your sentiment is correct, its just misplaced. The minute Obama started involving innocent civilians he became a coward. If he hadn't tried to hide among innocent civilians, there wouldn't have been any innocent civilian casualties. He chose to put those people at risk even though he knew he was a high value target. He could have hid in the mountains of Bora Bora if he really wanted to avoid putting innocent civilians in danger.

And yes, his death doesn't put an end to war but it does bring us closer to the end.

i was referring to the wars that have taken place in iraq and afghanistan as a result of bin laden's actions, or at least in afghanistan where thousands of civilians have been killed from collateral damage. the deaths did not come from the specific pursuit of bin laden but are directly related. i'm not sure i follow what you mean by obama involving civilians in the raid (if that's what you are referring to).

and the strategy some "terrorists" use is to directly hide in high civilian areas. in gaza this has been the strategy, and led to absolutely horrific results of death and destruction by israel that so many americans know little to nothing about.

you say it brings the war closer to the end, but i don't necessarily see that as true at all. when is the end? to me this is just a rationale for endless war, which is basically what the u.s. has been involved in since september 11th. we've been at war for longer than any period in american history. what is your basis for the claim it is closer to ending? how close? we outlined what bin laden's role has been, and to be fair we really don't know, but this is a drastically different situation, which you are admitting, compared to hitler. that in itself is enough for me to not get too excited.

Childs2Dudley wrote:I saw a mention of Israel just now and let us not act like they are innocent in all of this. They have their own faults. Their treatment of the Palestinian people is pathetic at best. Maybe they aren't terrorists but they certainly are not saints.

No, you can't deal with the agression of Hamas with saint like activity.

But Israel as a state is the aggressor? Israel breaks peace treaty? Israel is wrong to stop ships from carrying rockets that are fired on its children? Israel has given up all lands won but the Golan heights from every war they did not start but they finished.

There was no state of Palestine before the Balfour declaration. It was part of the Ottoman empire. They got it from the Romans. Before that the Egyptions. Before that it was Israel.

There was no form of indiginous government or culture in 1947. It was a British occupation. There were tribes of people living there. They were not displaced, many chose to leave. They were told Israel "will never survive" and they crossed over into Jordan, Syria and Lebonon and stayed in refugee camps for years.

Was it all fair and wonderful? No. Many were given money and other places to live. I know a family that was given $10,000 a piece to leave 40 years ago. That was a lot of money. They settled here and are very wealthy after investing in business. Not all success stories but they exist.

Not many talk about christian palistinians but they have done very well in Israel.

I've been to the West bank. Its tense. There are those who are doing well and building. Then there are those who still think they were robbed. There are those who are angry they bought into the rhetoric and allowed themselves to be a pawn. They have wasted a generation hating and got no where. There are those in Gaza who voted in Hamas and don't know what governemnt is suppose to do. They throw rocks in hunger but don't want help from Israel and don't trust its supplies. They don't trust Israel because they were told not to. BUt their own people use them as shields and pawns to promote hate funded by outside governments who don't care a thing about them. Israel can't let supplies just flow in unchecked.

There may be a majority who are peace loving and want good things to happen. They have not been able to rise above. How can Israel better help these people? How can they kick out Hammas when they voted them in?
How can they get help?

Many countries including our own have histories of displacing indiginous peoples. Some of Israels neighbors thought so much of refugees they would not let them settle in their countries. They will send them guns and rockets instead. Iran helps Lebanon by funding the Hezbalah and have them attack from the north. Sadam was so great to the palestinans he sent each family $25,000 if family member would strap a bomb on its back and blow him/her up and kill innocents. Won't send food, books, supplies or invest in jobs or help form a functional country, but that he did.

How did Arafat help his people? Took their money, took their food. Took their dignity.

Palestinians are taught as school children a rhetoric of hate and fear. How does that help? If you promote literacy you might elevate the thinking. Does anyone really expereince Israeli soldiers in the middle of the night sneaking in and stealing children and eating their eyeballs? Or take them away from mommy and daddy? Can't stop the rhetoric cuz those kids grow up to be good soldiers. If they learned the truth they might actually realize they have been lied to by hate mongers to do their dirty work.

Refugees left thinking Isreal would be destroyed. Many many "Palestinians" did stay and many did very well ingetgrating into a society that has Jews, Muslims and Christians. The state of isreael guarantees all religions can practice. And they do. THere are many mosques in Israel. I have been to them. There are many churches. I have been to them.

No country is a "Saint" but in a scale of morality it tips very favorable. You can't negotiate in good faith with people that don't want to. In all fairness, it takes two sides to negotiate a peace.

But your gonna go on and say "Israel hunted down Nazis" and is not so innocent in a conversation about Bin Laden? Nice work. What the hell does killing Bin Laden have to do with Israel?

jrodmc wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Childs2Dudley wrote:I saw a mention of Israel just now and let us not act like they are innocent in all of this. They have their own faults. Their treatment of the Palestinian people is pathetic at best. Maybe they aren't terrorists but they certainly are not saints.

Israel's long been noted as having the fourth most powerful military on the planet. They could easily wipe out most of the 10 Arab nations around them without skipping a beat. They've beaten them time and again over the past 60+ years. So do they do that? No, they take the obvious, "unsaintly" road of giving concessions to the point of causing internal strife within their own citizenry.

There were no Palestinians prior to the formation of modern day Israel. They were Jordanian tribes living in the wastelands. The majority of what is now Israel were malaria-infested swamps and desert wastelands. The "Palestinian state" propaganda and leftist non-sense is what's fueled the media for the last 6 decades.

Read Son of Hammas. You'll get a feel for how noble and patriotic an organization Hammas is. They breed hate and destruction, and everything else they do is to facilitate those goals.

Heh...there is always a side to every story. You can choose to believe what you want. I'm pretty sure I got the facts covered. There is propaganda on both sides, sure, but I have studied this long enough to know that Israel is not the one being oppressed. Israel is prideful to a fault. To a point where they are harming innocent people to satisfy their agenda.

And please let's talk realistically. Just because someone has a powerful military does not mean they have to use it to destroy anyone. Rarely does this ever happen. Just because Pakistan has the atomic bomb doesn't mean they have to drop it on India. These exist mostly for intimidation purposes. Why do you think they have a powerful military anyway? The good'ol U.S. of A.

Childs2Dudley wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Childs2Dudley wrote:I saw a mention of Israel just now and let us not act like they are innocent in all of this. They have their own faults. Their treatment of the Palestinian people is pathetic at best. Maybe they aren't terrorists but they certainly are not saints.

Israel's long been noted as having the fourth most powerful military on the planet. They could easily wipe out most of the 10 Arab nations around them without skipping a beat. They've beaten them time and again over the past 60+ years. So do they do that? No, they take the obvious, "unsaintly" road of giving concessions to the point of causing internal strife within their own citizenry.

There were no Palestinians prior to the formation of modern day Israel. They were Jordanian tribes living in the wastelands. The majority of what is now Israel were malaria-infested swamps and desert wastelands. The "Palestinian state" propaganda and leftist non-sense is what's fueled the media for the last 6 decades.

Read Son of Hammas. You'll get a feel for how noble and patriotic an organization Hammas is. They breed hate and destruction, and everything else they do is to facilitate those goals.

Heh...there is always a side to every story. You can choose to believe what you want. I'm pretty sure I got the facts covered. There is propaganda on both sides, sure, but I have studied this long enough to know that Israel is not the one being oppressed. Israel is prideful to a fault. To a point where they are harming innocent people to satisfy their agenda.

And please let's talk realistically. Just because someone has a powerful military does not mean they have to use it to destroy anyone. Rarely does this ever happen. Just because Pakistan has the atomic bomb doesn't mean they have to drop it on India. These exist mostly for intimidation purposes. Why do you think they have a powerful military anyway? The good'ol U.S. of A.

YOur right. They are oppressed. You oppress those that want to cause you harm. How can you filter the good ones from the bad ones?

What about Hammas oppressing its own?

Im sure they think they are in the right. They are oppressed. Ask an oppressed people to trust the oppressor after being taught not to is not condusive behavior to build trust. Firing rockets to the oppressor is not going to help your cause.

They don't want anyone stopping boats full of supplies because they fear what Israel might do to the supplies. They'd rather not have it. Pride but stupid. THen stop shipments of rockets? Do they need to defend themselves from Israel? Israel can sweep these people anytime they wish. They don't. They pledge not to and are not the aggressor.

What are the facts man? Im going on history not propoganda.

Why do they have a powerful military? Leverage. Why does the USA support them? Because a weak Isreael is vulnerable. And when countries VOW to destroy a vulnerable nation and wipe every man and child for no logical reason other than self esteem and they have the bomb, they will destroy all at the same time. The Arab world gets no windfall at all at a destroyed Israel other than take over the infrastructure that they will leave behind. An infrastructure they cannot comprehend. After a few days of dancing in the streets then what? Do you really think All the countries who wouuld like to see them gone really care about the Palistine refugees? They don't now. Do you realize how many millions would die? Do you know how many more will die from retaliation?

Israel is the size of a matchbook on a football field that is the middle east. It is a fundamental embarassment to the Arab world (not muslims) that they exist on that land. It offers no natural resources nor any military advantage. They have not sought out any expansion to other countries or conquest. They are agressive so long as they under a threat.

Do you have your facts straights straight? Can you even remember why the Arab world was so put off by the state of Israel?

Here you go. This is what your used to digesting. Apartied of a group in non Muslim countries lives a secular existance by choice. Refugees in Jordan and other countries are not integrated. IN Gaza and West Bank they are secular and don't recognize the state of israel. HOw can you integrate a group of people who don't recognize the nations by which they are "Not treated fair"?

misterearl wrote:http://www.mediaite.com/online/jon-stewart-on-osama-bin-ladens-death-americas-back-baby/

Markji wrote:Osama bin Laden is killed May 1.

General Petraeus, chief of military operations in Afghanistan, is appointed CIA director. Announced on April 28, to take effect in July.

Interesting. Afghanistan mission is now accomplished! Taking Gen. Petraeus out of Afghanistan gives Obama the ability to scale back U.S. operations there. General Petraeus was very popular and the chief proponent of the escalation of troops in Afghanistan. Now he has another important position as CIA Director, but no longer the military leader. Obama can have a freer hand to shape U.S. policy. I hope and expect that we will start pulling out of Afghanistan. Bin Laden wasn't even in Afghanistan; he was hiding in the middle of a town in Pakistan.

Word. It's time to GTFO of that hell hole. We got our guy, dumped him in the sea, time to bring our troops home. We should instead build up our CIA assets in both Afghanistan and Pakistan. There's no military solution to be won there and we have pressing needs for investment at home.