umynot wrote:Stephen A's job is to make a story!

We got swept by Maybe best team in East and someone has to be at fault and Stephen is putting it all
on

I can live with that even if I dont agree...... I have not given up on Coach yet.

We had a tiny Glimpse of what this team can be when Healthy.

Playing Boston while hurt was worst thing possible for what our team was going through.

Yet We battled 2 and a half games and came up short !.... Shit happens!!

Our system needs the PG healthy more then anything...... Not having a healthy Billups and injured
TD doomed us not the game plan!

Having half an AMARE killed us!!

Not

If Phil Jackson says i will coach Knicks I say ok fire D'Antoni

But till then I say wait till we get a franchise PG then judge this guy till then we are just building to get where we
wanna go!

The rare display of heart and guts the Knicks exhibited in the second half of Sunday's Game 4 didn't happen just because they started hitting shots and the Celtics suddenly forgot how to defend them. "We got tired of the way things were going," one player explained in the wee hours of Sunday night, long after everyone had departed from the Garden.

"We walked in at halftime and said 'We can't go out this way.' We were pretty ticked off, especially at us not seeming to have any answers scheme-wise. We knew Boston knew everything we were going to do, how we were going to do it, so we needed to do something differently. We just couldn't keep going the way we were going."

"Coach knows offense," one player explained. "It would be nice to set plays, control pace and not jack up shots just because you're open. But that's what Coach does. You could live with it if we played defense. But obviously, we haven't done that much. Good, bad or otherwise, all I can say is that I've never seen anything like this."

fishmike wrote:

why do you reject when someone calls you a Melo hater when most if not all of your post concerning Melo is negatives about is game or backhanded compluments?

Tell me one negative thing I have said about Melo. I can only think of one... I called him a diva, and that after he ducked media and blamed the coach and teammates when the losses were mounting early on.

On the rest of your post...

easy fella. You missed my sarcasm about being a Melo apologist, but your comments that follow are spot on. Its stupid isnt it? Your points about the MDA stuff is a 100% correct. Being labeled a hater or an apologist is idiotic. I agree 100% with everything in your post. Its just not where I was coming from.

To me Melo and MDA are in exactly the same boat. Both have accomplished some things in the NBA. MDA has yet to prove his system or his style of play can win a title right? Just like Melo has yet to prove he's more than a #s player.

My point is the most adamant Melo supporters seem to really attack MDA, when ironically BOTH have exactly the same knocks.
MDA doesnt coach defense. Melo doesnt play it.
MDA's system cant win a title. Melo's play can win a playoff series
MDA inflates numbers with this system. Melo volume shooter and a #s player.

Some of the parallels are quite interesting here arent they?

As for Melo's playoff losses coming against the Spurs and Lakers... Melo has played 50 playoff games and shoots 41% for his career. A considerable dropoff. Also in 4 of Melo's 8 post seasons he has shot 33%, 33%, 36% and 38%. Thats terrible. Thats not an attack. Its an observation. Like Amare needs to rebound better, its weak. Do I hate Amare now? Or am I just recognizing a weakness in his game?

I'm not crying because MDA is treated unfairly here in general. I'm calling out guys who think we lost because of MDA when our star player shot 37% and our other star player's back was so phucked up dude couldnt tie his own shoes. Whats up with that?

On paper, those shooting %'s look putrid. You are 100% correct. Now, I dont remember all of those playoff series off the top of my head, so I can only assume the coaches game plan was designed to key in him but I dont want to use that as an excuse because all star players get similar treatment, so I agree, those numbers aren't pretty. But the following numbers aren't too shaby either:

06/07 48% fg, 27 pts, 9 rbs, 1 ast
08/09 45% fg, 27 pts, 6 rbs, 4 ast
09/10 46% fg, 30 pts, 8 rbs, 3 ast

Fish, what is your honest assessment on what one of the players said concerning the recent series lost to the Celts, "We were pretty ticked off, especially at us not seeming to have any answers scheme-wise. We knew Boston knew everything we were going to do, how we were going to do it, so we needed to do something differently. We just couldn't keep going the way we were going."

"Coach knows offense," one player explained. "It would be nice to set plays, control pace and not jack up shots just because you're open. But that's what Coach does. You could live with it if we played defense. But obviously, we haven't done that much. Good, bad or otherwise, all I can say is that I've never seen anything like this."

fishmike wrote:
And THIS is where your flat out wrong, and everyone else who thinks this trade was a good trade for the Knicks. Because you THINK that Carmelo Anthony is the same caliber player that KG is and he cant sniff his jock. Was Melo ever a first all NBA defensive team? Was Melo ever considered an MVP candidate, much less win one? NO NO NO NO NO NO

4 years ago Kevin Garnett was a top 5 player in the NBA. Melo never has been, and has shown nothing that says he ever will be.

The fact that the Melo trade was a terrible trade from a BB standpoint (great for business) will never affect how I feel about a player. I never blamed Eddy Curry for costing us picks, etc. I always rooted for the guy to turn it around, etc, JUST like I will root for Melo to be a great Knick and lead us to many post season wins, etc

BUT I dont EXPECT or ASSUME players to do things they have never done. The Nuggets have had a very good team for awhile. They were NOT a team of Melo + scrubs. This notion that Melo carried them year after year is simply garbage (what was their record when he left?????).

You guys just refuse to look at reality and actually look at the player's game and his accomplishments and RESULTS.

This is my last post, but this tells me alot about your true feelings.

Basically you are saying even though their playoff records pre-Boston were very similar, Melo doesn't sniff KG's jock because he played D( and Carmelo is as far away better offensively) and when KG made his playoff run he won a MVP. And because KG was Top 5 to you means you can't even mention them together.

Yet Carmelo is better offensive than the back handed players you compare him to and Defensively as average he maybe because of effort, Zero and VC were always terrible. As a small he is at the top as a rebounder and a top 10 player( I know you think guys who are also so on defense and making first ound exits are better then him)............. but when was VC or Agent zero ever top 10?????

So how do you reconcile this, with another long winded I don't Hate Melo i'm a blue collar guy post??? Even though for the most part that is the tilt your post take, I really only see you claiming every thinks you hate Melo.............. either way I really don't care, because we'll be rooting for a 50 win team next year.LOL

The Nuggets have had a very good team for awhile. They were NOT a team of Melo + scrubs. This notion that Melo carried them year after year is simply garbage (what was their record when he left?????).

They did a good job of finishing out the season without Melo, but you can't be that delusional to not think Melo was carrying that team for years. What is you argument against that???
\
The often injured Kmart did or the over weight Nene who couldn't be counted on for more then 25 mins and 50-60 guys the first 3 years of his career. Was it Ai who was bounced out of the league with in a year of being traded??? 2 year man TY Lawson or Araon afflalo who's been nugget for two years?? Two guys who weren't even aprt of the team when they made their serious run in the playoffs two seasons ago. JR Smith perhaps or Camby, another player who wasn't even the team when they made it to the conference finals.

How you explain who is the other constant in the Nuggets 8 year playoff run, because I would like to know. Please do tell............. SMH.

Bippity10 wrote:

Uptown wrote:So how did this thread go from trying to defend MDA to dumping on Melo and calling him Vince Carter again? Dont understand why guys feel a need to continously recant their hate for the trade and in every thread.

Why won't anyone answer Fish's questioin about what is wrong with being compared to vince or Agent 0? Fish isn't comparing him to today's Vince and Agent 0 who are a shadow of there former selves.

He is comparing them to the original Vince. The Vince that put up
27.5pts 6 reb 5 assists
24.5pts 5 reb 4 assists

Or the Gilbert Arenas pre injury that put up
29.3 points and 6 assists
28.4 points and 6 assists

Nothing wrong with that comparison. What do they all have in common? Great numbers. Leader of their teams. Battled hard in the playoffs. Haven't accomplished squat. Hopefully Carmelo doesn't break down like they have, and can actually get it done here. Until then, he still has something to prove and needs to earn the love of the Fishmikes and Bips of the world.

I answered that in another thread..Will find it when I have time..

The short list:Best year
Christian Laettner 16/7
Gugliotta 20/8
Marybury 17/8
Isaiah Rider 19/4rebs
Terrel Brandon 17/8
Rasho Nesterovic 11/6
Joe Smith 13/8
Wally Szczerbiak 20/4
Chauncey Billups 12/5
Troy Hudson 14/5
Sam Cassell 19/7
Latrell Sprewell 16/4
Mark Blount 12/6
Rashad McCants 15/3
Ricky Davis 19/4/4

I'm sorry, I know your Schick and I shouldn't even gotten involved with you because I figure you are either very young or dumb.

I used to follow those Twolves and they had some very productive and good role pieces but as a team they weren't ever that great as a whole. Names are names,but when it get's down toit they were never great at anything.

I've also been a fan of Melo for a while, and I know Nene used to be a Fat over weight slob who put up Mark Blount/Rasho Nesterovis for most of his stay in Denver......... if you just started watching the Nuggs you could think he was a top big man because of the flashes over thelast two seasons. BUt we are talking about 8 years in the playoffs, 8 years above .500.

I know Kmart has in the last two has been a solid bench player, far from the NJ Nets boarderline All pro, constantly on the injuried list playing 60 games plus only twice in his 7 year Nuggs career. I guess if you still see Kmart and RJ and Kid in your head, you would be dumb enough to think he is somebody kind of top 3 or 4 player team wise. LOL

RJ Smith, Birdman, this is your argument for a great cast that KG never had and Melo had.......... Other then two 31 plus old guards and Camby, Who are the above average players were are talking about. What are we talking about if you actually knew more then a bunch of names is a bunch of average to bench players................ so smoke away.

And you, I know you'er hater no doubt in my mind, Hate away some where else it's failing on me.

holfresh wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

Uptown wrote:So how did this thread go from trying to defend MDA to dumping on Melo and calling him Vince Carter again? Dont understand why guys feel a need to continously recant their hate for the trade and in every thread.

Why won't anyone answer Fish's questioin about what is wrong with being compared to vince or Agent 0? Fish isn't comparing him to today's Vince and Agent 0 who are a shadow of there former selves.

He is comparing them to the original Vince. The Vince that put up
27.5pts 6 reb 5 assists
24.5pts 5 reb 4 assists

Or the Gilbert Arenas pre injury that put up
29.3 points and 6 assists
28.4 points and 6 assists

Nothing wrong with that comparison. What do they all have in common? Great numbers. Leader of their teams. Battled hard in the playoffs. Haven't accomplished squat. Hopefully Carmelo doesn't break down like they have, and can actually get it done here. Until then, he still has something to prove and needs to earn the love of the Fishmikes and Bips of the world.

I answered that in another thread..Will find it when I have time..

How many of the guys Fish is comparing Melo to has lead their teams to 4 consecutive 50+ win seasons?...You win 50 games in this league it means more than the stats next to your name...Better yet, has any of them ever lead a team to a 50 win season...

holfresh wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

Uptown wrote:So how did this thread go from trying to defend MDA to dumping on Melo and calling him Vince Carter again? Dont understand why guys feel a need to continously recant their hate for the trade and in every thread.

Why won't anyone answer Fish's questioin about what is wrong with being compared to vince or Agent 0? Fish isn't comparing him to today's Vince and Agent 0 who are a shadow of there former selves.

He is comparing them to the original Vince. The Vince that put up
27.5pts 6 reb 5 assists
24.5pts 5 reb 4 assists

Or the Gilbert Arenas pre injury that put up
29.3 points and 6 assists
28.4 points and 6 assists

Nothing wrong with that comparison. What do they all have in common? Great numbers. Leader of their teams. Battled hard in the playoffs. Haven't accomplished squat. Hopefully Carmelo doesn't break down like they have, and can actually get it done here. Until then, he still has something to prove and needs to earn the love of the Fishmikes and Bips of the world.

I answered that in another thread..Will find it when I have time..

How many of the guys Fish is comparing Melo to has lead their teams to 4 consecutive 50+ win seasons?...You win 50 games in this league it means more than the stats next to your name...Better yet, has any of them ever lead a team to a 50 win season...

Andre Miller was a hell of a guard in his prime and Camby had some great years in Denver!

Melo has been a young brash player who has really matured the last few years with Chauns really helping him. I recall reading an article that Melo wanted to be taken seriously and Chauns explained that if you dress urban you won't get respected as if you dress in a suit. Maybe little things but Melo's reputation has not always been that great.

My take is he has matured and is now stepping up to carry the weight of a franchise in NYC and thats no small feat.

Melo as a team leader carrying his franchise to the playoffs is debatable either way.

I don't think its stretch to say in their first five-six years his career has been much different from those other guys but those guys did not play on very good teams but they were carrying them stat wise.

Melo has to stay injury free and blend in to create a chemestry with Amare and others for the team to ulitimatly succeed.

The deal is done, he is a knick, he is one of the two faces of the franchise and what he has been is not nearly important as what he will do gong forward. T-mac, Vince and Arenas all had major knee injuries.

Melo has had good depth on his teams, Good point guards and very good talent arount him in his career. MInny had some very nice teams that also went to the conf. finals but lacked depth in the long run. Vince Never had the heart and Arenas has been a clown.

Fishmike has valid concerns but we don't have enough sample in NY to go on. I think his assumption that Knick fans were anticipating better based on the hype is something I agree with. We didn't have a pep rally like Miami but he arrived with fan fair and the most causual sports fan took notice and tuned it to see what it was all about.

Was it a good trade or not?

We really won't know for a few years will we?

MDA has gotten good quotes from players impressed after he was duputy dog to Coach K after the olympics.

I would say if your wanting MDA gone one can find all the special little things to back it up. Like wise "apologists" can point to a winning record and trip to playoffs and the fact he has never had a set squad for more than 3 mos.

So I guess we just see what happens. Nobody here can convince anyone of importance so its in Walsh's hands until we hear otherwise.

Fear Isiah.

fishmike wrote:

Anji wrote:

fishmike wrote:
The Nuggets have had a very good team for awhile. They were NOT a team of Melo + scrubs. This notion that Melo carried them year after year is simply garbage (what was their record when he left?????).

They did a good job of finishing out the season without Melo, but you can't be that delusional to not think Melo was carrying that team for years. What is you argument against that???

How you explain who is the other constant in the Nuggets 8 year playoff run, because I would like to know. Please do tell............. SMH.

they had other solid players but your 100% right. Melo was the best player there and the motor that drove that boat to 8 straight playoff berths.

Who is questioning that? Who is saying Melo isnt an all star player or a top 20 player in this league? nobody.

The problem is I thought we were trying to build a contender right? Meanwhile our best player we are build around has a history of subpar playoff performances, a history of being a poor defensive play, lapses and a simple lack of effort, as well as a very low % volume shooter. What is your argument against that???

Which brings us full circle to this thread and this arguement.

Why does MDA have to get fired, but the same guys who seem pretty adamant about firing him overlook exactly the same shortcomings that have dogged Melo's career?

A poor playoff performer
A volume shooter with low shooting %s
A poor defender

This is not my opinion. This is fact based on:
He doesnt win playoff games
He is consistantly outplayed by the other team's best player
His poor play in the playoffs is reflected in his playoff stats.

Sorry but the Boston series is a reflection of his past failures.

Game 1- simply a pathetic all around effort. His shot didnt and he decided not to play hard
Game 2- great performance, but failed to execute down the stretch
Game 3- great effort, poor execution
Game 4- good effort, good execution

Melo is a good player. Melo is a top 20 player in the league. Melo is an all star player. Melo can carry a team. It ends there.

If we are trying to be the best why did we just unload every bullet in our gun to get a guy who's shown in 8 years he doesnt have what it takes?

Can that change? Sure... is it likely? No, because 8 years into the league stars rarely change much.

Can we win a title with Melo being the best player? The leader? I dont see any evidence that would support that.

Can we go to the playoffs every year with Melo? Yes and we will

Fish - I think you fire MDA because Melo is a volume shooter and MDA's systems is about volume shooting.

We need a coach that can reign in the volume shooting and get him to take smart shots.

And we need a coach that will get us to play defense.

Has MDA had a fair shot? Probably no.

But what we have seen, I think its fair to say, is that while he's been here, MDA's teams have been known to chuck.

We can argue about whether MDA has his 'Right' players- but any other coach would have simplified or altered his game plan to fit the players he had.

The more I think about it, the more I think MDA and Melo are a bad fit.