BlueSeats wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

nixluva wrote:I guarantee that MDA will be a lot better as soon as we make the needed improvements.

Agreed. However, is there anything in his resume to suggest he'll ever coach an above average defensive team? And is average good enough?

Agreed. Is there anything to suggest he could not with defensive players?

How about this exercise. When in PHO, Mike's teams were either #1 or #2 in Offensive Efficiency each year, but their Def Eff was ranked #16, 17, 13, 16 over that same 4 year span.

Core players: Amare, Raja, Marion, Nash, Diaw, Barbosa.

Objectively, did his teams under perform defensively? They certainly, by all accounts and at best, were average. Raja is second team all-defense and Shawne Marion was first team in 2010, so he at least had the high capability. Nash is a below average defender and so is Amare. I am trying to figure out if there was even some semblance of a C for PHO over that 4 years: I see Kurt Thomas was there the year Amare goes down and was there another half season. Shaq was also half season in last year.

Can a team with no C's, Amare and Nash be a top 10 defensive team? What's their potential?

I would say that his teams under-performed defensively and slightly over-performed offensively.

Here for stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/

Martin, those 4 years of League Average defense where the pinnacle of his career. He was Da Man in Phoenix and presumably largely responsible for that roster you rightly slight. Still, he did not have the confidence of his GM and owner to the extent that many still don't believe he wanted Shaq (even though he was also a premier scorer).

So again, his career defensive accomplishments peaked at average; at his pinnacle management lost confidence in his defensive attentiveness; he bristled at their interventions toward those ends and left because of it or was borderline fired; his teams seem to eschew heavy footed centers in deference to guys with jumpers or bait-biting lips.

No one can disprove hope and hypotheticals, but seriously, what's your confidence level in him?

I remember watching a lot of Phoenix when MDA was there, and their defensive mentality was if they were beat by their man, to let them score instead of fouling them, and to instead inbound the ball and push it back at them. That was MDA's pace.

Now- you can't help but wonder if MDA preferred them to allow the opponent to score instead of fouling them, if that mentality creeped to the extent of - I'll play half hearted on defense, but that is o.k., because we're about pace and letting the opponent take quick shots.

What this guy wants stinks worse here then his old job because we already seen this movie with the best case this coach could hope for. And we ain't getting his perfect players here.

nixluva wrote:

Following the game, Doc blamed Pierce for failing to box out on the missed free throw, which was interesting for two reasons. First, Pierce DID box out. I recorded the game on TiVo. The ball just bounced over his head. It happens. And second, instead of putting in two rebounders with Trevor Ariza at the line (a poor free throw shooter), Doc went in the other direction and yanked Kendrick Perkins (our tallest guy) for Ryan Gomes (who's 6-foot-7), leaving two small forwards on the low block to grab a potential Ariza miss with less than 90 seconds to play. I mentioned that he's a career 60 percent FT shooter, right? The important thing to remember is that the whole thing was Pierce's fault because he was too short to grab the rebound. Whatever. The players screwed up the "little things" down the stretch, as always. It's the hallmark of a poorly coached team, whether you're watching Doc and the Celtics, Terry Stotts and the Bucks or whomever else.

Now Doc is a genius and a winner and always makes the right move. You think it hasn't helped that he has WINNERS on his roster and guys that give 110% along with great talent? Better players always make a coach look smarter. All of these criticisms sound familiar cuz its the kind of stuff people bash Mike for. The reason is that when you don't have clear cut players that can get things done and you have to decide between role players that are pretty much all flawed and not that good. You can't make the right decision all the time. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE!!! That's why Pat Riley once coached a 15 win team in Miami and LB couldn't get anything out of the Knicks.

Wait a sec is that a poster referring to a game in the Finals against the Lakers in which they lost? If not and you're referring to regular season game then HARDY HAR-HAR HAR.

If so Celtics won that series in 6gms. So all anyone has to do to blow your point to smithereens is that Doc although with fault made quick enough adjustments or quick work to rectify his wrongs to finish off a Giant opponent in 6gms.

BlueSeats wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

nixluva wrote:I guarantee that MDA will be a lot better as soon as we make the needed improvements.

Agreed. However, is there anything in his resume to suggest he'll ever coach an above average defensive team? And is average good enough?

Agreed. Is there anything to suggest he could not with defensive players?

How about this exercise. When in PHO, Mike's teams were either #1 or #2 in Offensive Efficiency each year, but their Def Eff was ranked #16, 17, 13, 16 over that same 4 year span.

Core players: Amare, Raja, Marion, Nash, Diaw, Barbosa.

Objectively, did his teams under perform defensively? They certainly, by all accounts and at best, were average. Raja is second team all-defense and Shawne Marion was first team in 2010, so he at least had the high capability. Nash is a below average defender and so is Amare. I am trying to figure out if there was even some semblance of a C for PHO over that 4 years: I see Kurt Thomas was there the year Amare goes down and was there another half season. Shaq was also half season in last year.

Can a team with no C's, Amare and Nash be a top 10 defensive team? What's their potential?

I would say that his teams under-performed defensively and slightly over-performed offensively.

Here for stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/

Martin, those 4 years of League Average defense where the pinnacle of his career. He was Da Man in Phoenix and presumably largely responsible for that roster you rightly slight. Still, he did not have the confidence of his GM and owner to the entent that many still don't believe he wanted Shaq (also a premier scorer).

So again, his career defensive accomplishments peaked at average, in his pinnacle management lost confidence in his defensive attentiveness, he bristled at their interventions toward those ends, his teams seem to eschew more heavy footed centers in deference to guys with jumpers or bait-biting lips.

No one can disprove hope and hypotheticals, but seriously, what's your confidence level in him?

MDA was not largely responsible for the roster. The stingy owner was; recall trading away Joe Johnson and many multiple draft picks because of need for cash. I think MDA was defacto GM for like a month and completely failed in his 1 maneuver by extending Banks.

Care to put an assessment on the defensive capabilities of his squads? Or do we stick with just labeling it average career defensive accomplishments without actually looking at the actual roster and what was taking place? I mean really, if Pat Riley was coaching a starting lineup of 5 JJ's do we call him an inept offensive coach or do we look at the hands of worst player and call it a bad roster?

Since you wont answer the question I will. I have little confidence in his defensive acumen.

hey, you answer mine and I'll take a crack at you question.

Martin, since I asked my question first wouldn't logic and courtesy suggest you should answer first? But that's fine, lets let them stand as rhetorically. Lets dwell in bizarre hypotheticals (like Riley and 5 JJs) and ignore that his employers and players doubt him. Ideally, you want a coach your players trust and almost worship. A guy they'll walk thru walls for. Certainly one they'll buy into, and it's just not clear D' is that kind of guy.

Truth be told, I think you're in knee-jerk defense mode anyway. Aren't you the one who wants this guy on a short 2-3 month leash for next year? Hardly an overwhelming show of support. You clearly have your own doubts about him too. Not sure why you subjugate them every time he's criticized.

I was referring to my first question to you: Can a team with no C's, Amare and Nash be a top 10 defensive team? What's their potential? I followed with the nudge of:
Care to put an assessment on the defensive capabilities of his squads?

martin wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

nixluva wrote:I guarantee that MDA will be a lot better as soon as we make the needed improvements.

Agreed. However, is there anything in his resume to suggest he'll ever coach an above average defensive team? And is average good enough?

Agreed. Is there anything to suggest he could not with defensive players?

How about this exercise. When in PHO, Mike's teams were either #1 or #2 in Offensive Efficiency each year, but their Def Eff was ranked #16, 17, 13, 16 over that same 4 year span.

Core players: Amare, Raja, Marion, Nash, Diaw, Barbosa.

Objectively, did his teams under perform defensively? They certainly, by all accounts and at best, were average. Raja is second team all-defense and Shawne Marion was first team in 2010, so he at least had the high capability. Nash is a below average defender and so is Amare. I am trying to figure out if there was even some semblance of a C for PHO over that 4 years: I see Kurt Thomas was there the year Amare goes down and was there another half season. Shaq was also half season in last year.

Can a team with no C's, Amare and Nash be a top 10 defensive team? What's their potential?

I would say that his teams under-performed defensively and slightly over-performed offensively.

Here for stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/

Martin, those 4 years of League Average defense where the pinnacle of his career. He was Da Man in Phoenix and presumably largely responsible for that roster you rightly slight. Still, he did not have the confidence of his GM and owner to the entent that many still don't believe he wanted Shaq (also a premier scorer).

So again, his career defensive accomplishments peaked at average, in his pinnacle management lost confidence in his defensive attentiveness, he bristled at their interventions toward those ends, his teams seem to eschew more heavy footed centers in deference to guys with jumpers or bait-biting lips.

No one can disprove hope and hypotheticals, but seriously, what's your confidence level in him?

MDA was not largely responsible for the roster. The stingy owner was; recall trading away Joe Johnson and many multiple draft picks because of need for cash. I think MDA was defacto GM for like a month and completely failed in his 1 maneuver by extending Banks.

Care to put an assessment on the defensive capabilities of his squads? Or do we stick with just labeling it average career defensive accomplishments without actually looking at the actual roster and what was taking place? I mean really, if Pat Riley was coaching a starting lineup of 5 JJ's do we call him an inept offensive coach or do we look at the hands of worst player and call it a bad roster?

Since you wont answer the question I will. I have little confidence in his defensive acumen.

hey, you answer mine and I'll take a crack at you question.

Martin, since I asked my question first wouldn't logic and courtesy suggest you should answer first? But that's fine, lets let them stand as rhetorically. Lets dwell in bizarre hypotheticals (like Riley and 5 JJs) and ignore that his employers and players doubt him. Ideally, you want a coach your players trust and almost worship. A guy they'll walk thru walls for. Certainly one they'll buy into, and it's just not clear D' is that kind of guy.

Truth be told, I think you're in knee-jerk defense mode anyway. Aren't you the one who wants this guy on a short 2-3 month leash for next year? Hardly an overwhelming show of support. You clearly have your own doubts about him too. Not sure why you subjugate them every time he's criticized.

I was referring to my first question to you: Can a team with no C's, Amare and Nash be a top 10 defensive team? What's their potential? I followed with the nudge of:
Care to put an assessment on the defensive capabilities of his squads?

Fair enough. From what I've seen with teams like Mia, Chi and OKC, who I wouldn't necessarily have expected to be so strong defensively, yes, from the right coach. And few coaches would prefer to maintain such a roster. Amare had to beg not to play C, only to ultimately be replaced by Frye, another guy one had no right to expect D from. These types of rosters with low defensive expectations are no coincidence.

BlueSeats wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:Truth be told, I think you're in knee-jerk defense mode anyway.

Blue, let's be clear, most every time I try to put an assessment out of MDA's teams and defense, I am referring to stats and trying to show his roster and coming to conclusions based on that.

in the examples above, your response has been both labeling and factually wrong.

those 4 years of League Average defense where the pinnacle of his career. He was Da Man in Phoenix and presumably largely responsible for that roster you rightly slight.

and you want to call my posts knee-jerk?

Hey, you can't even recall where you find your stats which turned out to be blatantly wrong, I try to put URLs and sources for each of mine.

You sidestepping your own doubts while rushing to his defense in every thread is quite a bit different than my one-time clerical error, no?

I haven't said 1 positive thing about MDA's defense. In fact in several threads I have called it horrible. I am, however, attaching some weak ass arguments, big diff, subtle but big.

You still think MDA was GM for a long enough period to shape the roster in PHO?

martin wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:Truth be told, I think you're in knee-jerk defense mode anyway.

Blue, let's be clear, most every time I try to put an assessment out of MDA's teams and defense, I am referring to stats and trying to show his roster and coming to conclusions based on that.

in the examples above, your response has been both labeling and factually wrong.

those 4 years of League Average defense where the pinnacle of his career. He was Da Man in Phoenix and presumably largely responsible for that roster you rightly slight.

and you want to call my posts knee-jerk?

Hey, you can't even recall where you find your stats which turned out to be blatantly wrong, I try to put URLs and sources for each of mine.

You sidestepping your own doubts while rushing to his defense in every thread is quite a bit different than my one-time clerical error, no?

I haven't said 1 positive thing about MDA's defense. In fact in several threads I have called it horrible. I am, however, attaching some weak ass arguments, big diff, subtle but big.

You still think MDA was GM for a long enough period to shape the roster in PHO?

A coach doesn't have to hold the title of GM to help shape the roster, unless management is in radical disagreement with his style.

BlueSeats wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:Truth be told, I think you're in knee-jerk defense mode anyway.

Blue, let's be clear, most every time I try to put an assessment out of MDA's teams and defense, I am referring to stats and trying to show his roster and coming to conclusions based on that.

in the examples above, your response has been both labeling and factually wrong.

those 4 years of League Average defense where the pinnacle of his career. He was Da Man in Phoenix and presumably largely responsible for that roster you rightly slight.

and you want to call my posts knee-jerk?

Hey, you can't even recall where you find your stats which turned out to be blatantly wrong, I try to put URLs and sources for each of mine.

You sidestepping your own doubts while rushing to his defense in every thread is quite a bit different than my one-time clerical error, no?

I haven't said 1 positive thing about MDA's defense. In fact in several threads I have called it horrible. I am, however, attaching some weak ass arguments, big diff, subtle but big.

You still think MDA was GM for a long enough period to shape the roster in PHO?

A coach doesn't have to hold the title of GM to help shape the roster, unless management is in radical disagreement with his style.

So your underlying thought is that MDA didn't want Joe Johnson, didn't want a backup PG, and didn't want 1 big outside of Kurt Thomas? And also wanted to trade away multiple first round picks?

4 years as head coach and 3 years after MDA is gone and they are still running the same system, so what can one infer about what management thinks about the style?

martin wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:Truth be told, I think you're in knee-jerk defense mode anyway.

Blue, let's be clear, most every time I try to put an assessment out of MDA's teams and defense, I am referring to stats and trying to show his roster and coming to conclusions based on that.

in the examples above, your response has been both labeling and factually wrong.

those 4 years of League Average defense where the pinnacle of his career. He was Da Man in Phoenix and presumably largely responsible for that roster you rightly slight.

and you want to call my posts knee-jerk?

Hey, you can't even recall where you find your stats which turned out to be blatantly wrong, I try to put URLs and sources for each of mine.

You sidestepping your own doubts while rushing to his defense in every thread is quite a bit different than my one-time clerical error, no?

I haven't said 1 positive thing about MDA's defense. In fact in several threads I have called it horrible. I am, however, attaching some weak ass arguments, big diff, subtle but big.

You still think MDA was GM for a long enough period to shape the roster in PHO?

A coach doesn't have to hold the title of GM to help shape the roster, unless management is in radical disagreement with his style.

So your underlying thought is that MDA didn't want Joe Johnson, didn't want a backup PG, and didn't want 1 big outside of Kurt Thomas? And also wanted to trade away multiple first round picks?

4 years as head coach and 3 years after MDA is gone and they are still running the same system, so what can one infer about what management thinks about the style?

Well what I don't think is that he really does put a premium on defense, he's just been a victim of circumstances, and he only uses SSOL to mask the deficiencies of a roster not of his choosing.

BlueSeats wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

martin wrote:I was referring to my first question to you: Can a team with no C's, Amare and Nash be a top 10 defensive team? What's their potential? I followed with the nudge of:
Care to put an assessment on the defensive capabilities of his squads?

Fair enough. From what I've seen with teams like Mia, Chi and OKC, who I wouldn't necessarily have expected to be so strong defensively, yes, from the right coach. And few coaches would prefer to maintain such a roster. Amare had to beg not to play C, only to ultimately be replaced by Frye, another guy one had no right to expect D from. These types of rosters with low defensive expectations are no coincidence.

Statistically, OKC has been middle of the pack defensively this year (perhaps a hint above that), about the same as PHO's best year. MIA didn't surprise me with 2 of the best defensive wings in the game and some semblance of interior D with Bosh and some bigs, although they are definitely better than expected (they struggle with teams with size as you might expect). CHI very good especially considering injuries, and their depth at bigs covered that up long enough.

I guess my question though was about PHO's squads and your assessment of those teams. Can a team with no C's, Amare and Nash be a top 10 defensive team? What's their potential?

I know that Amare didn't want to play C. But who was there to start in his place? Pat Burke?

If memory serves me (and you're welcome to fact check) OKC ranks 5th in defensive efficiency, a measure I thought you respected.

MDA got average defense from an average defensive squad. My expectation is that under him we too will be an average defensive squad playing average defense, and it will bite us.

This is where I got the def eff numbers from, OKC #13 in league:

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff/order/false
http://hoopdata.com/teamff.aspx

So my confidence in MDA getting some defense out of his team? Obviously tempered and low, as I give him until next mid season to show us a team that can perform. He has obviously not shown us that he can this year - I don't put too much into the first 2 years, that was just a hot mess of Donnie cleaning up Isiah's crap, and for the most part MDA was just a stand-in. (could he have done differently with the squad? sure, but to what end? only TD remained).

When you start the year with AR, Moz, Turiaf, Amare, Felton, Chandler, TD, Gallo, Buke, Mason... that roster has the potential of bigs, interior play and ball pressure. MDA obviously didn't play AR and Moz the right way and it was a cluster**** from the get-go. The team did start to turn around and was beginning to meet expectations by all-star break... and then roster shake-up. Again.

First 2 games against Boston surprised me. Fluke? Things to come? They eventually succumbed to be a DLeague-like roster headed by Melo. Shit happens.

Would I fire a coach after 1 year? No, and that's the angle I generally take.

So although my confidence in MDA being able to play a decent defensive team is low, I am also not saying that he can't because I am constantly throwing opportunity and expectations into the bag. What did Doc River do before the trade for KG and Ray? About the same as MDA has to this point. And I would have given him about the same assessment.