islesfan wrote:

fishmike wrote:Melo really is Vince Carter. He's capable of being one of the best ever, he just doesnt have that drive. Obviously a good coach isnt going to get it out of him either, because Karl is a good coach. MDA is a good coach. Would Phil JAckson get that from him? It might just make Melo bail and pout. I'm just not sure he's got the stones, or at least he hasnt shown it yet.

It comes down to winning and how bad guys want it. Obviously Melo was sick of losing and really wanted to win that game. I suspect agains the Nets he will fall back into old habits, get his shots and that will be enough to fill the box score and look like a good day at the office.

And Boston and Detroit do bring it every night. I dont remember Sheed, Billups, Ben Wallace and Prince taking nights off. Too much pride in their defense. It showed. Every team has off nights. Melo has off months on that side of the ball.

We are talking about Shaq? One of the most dominating players to ever play? Please.... this is the problem with Melo. People here actually believe the billboards and cool comercials. Either that or they simply exagerate what Melo is to justify the trade. Take your pick. You cant watch Melo and say he's a top 10 star NBA player. Maybe he could be, but he's not. Way to one dimensional.

The people waiting on Melo to do what he did last night more consistantly are just as reality based as people talking about how great Gallo and Mosgov were "going" to be. Melo being a complete player is a pipe dream. He's 27 has the paycheck and goes to all star games. What you see has been good enough. He's not changing. Unless you think he's going to care more about winning than he has in the past... enough so where he's really motivated to change his game (like Lebron did on defense).

Melo is a good player, but he needs to be surrounded by strong personalities and tough guys. If we had Ben Wallace, Raja Bell and Billups and they were all 27 also Melo would be a great fit. But those guys I mentioned are just role players and SO MUCH EASIER TO GET THEN A STAR so I expect the roster to filled out with them next winter.

Cant wait

Melo's teams have never missed the playoffs and his team lost in the Conference Finals to the 2 time champion Lakers in 6 games last year. Oh and he carried his Syracuse team to an NCAA championship.

Yeah, he's not a great defender on a consistent basis but he can be a good defender. Add to that his elite offensive ability and he's most definitely a player you can build a contender around. All top players need help to win championships.

I agree, role players are easier to get than stars, that's why the Melo trade had to happen, that makes the next 2 offseasons very important to find the correct pieces to put around Melo and Amare. That includes the right head coach.

Yeah, Mike's he's not a great defensive coach on a consistent basis but he can be a good defensive coach. Add to that his elite offensive ability and he's most definitely a coach you can build a contender around. All top coaches need help to win championships.

see what I did there?

fishmike wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:It's a head coach's job to get his team to play with effort. D'antoni has been unable to do so up until yesterday, which is why I want him fired.

What's not to understand?

high-larious

MDA gets FULL credit for Melo's good game right? Thank god MDA got Melo to play hard. Maybe this coaching thing is starting to click and we should keep him? At least until Melo forgets what MDA told him and goes back to floating and loafing on D

Who gets FULL credit for the Knicks being bad defensively and not playing hard all year? the head coach or a guy who showed up a month ago?

islesfan wrote:

fishmike wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:It's a head coach's job to get his team to play with effort. D'antoni has been unable to do so up until yesterday, which is why I want him fired.

What's not to understand?

high-larious

MDA gets FULL credit for Melo's good game right? Thank god MDA got Melo to play hard. Maybe this coaching thing is starting to click and we should keep him? At least until Melo forgets what MDA told him and goes back to floating and loafing on D

Who gets FULL credit for the Knicks being bad defensively and not playing hard all year? the head coach or a guy who showed up a month ago?

Gotta love how Melo catches all the heat now for the Knicks lack of defense, even when they know D'antoni wasn't known for defense years before either he or Melo joined New York.

Phil Jax is one of the most laid back coaches during the game.

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

islesfan wrote:

fishmike wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:It's a head coach's job to get his team to play with effort. D'antoni has been unable to do so up until yesterday, which is why I want him fired.

What's not to understand?

high-larious

MDA gets FULL credit for Melo's good game right? Thank god MDA got Melo to play hard. Maybe this coaching thing is starting to click and we should keep him? At least until Melo forgets what MDA told him and goes back to floating and loafing on D

Who gets FULL credit for the Knicks being bad defensively and not playing hard all year? the head coach or a guy who showed up a month ago?

Gotta love how Melo catches all the heat now for the Knicks lack of defense, even when they know D'antoni wasn't known for defense years before either he or Melo joined New York.

The effort on defense before the trade was there.

You can't be serious. This team has and will be in the top 5 in points allowed throughout the entire D'antoni era.

that's more a factor of pace. Before trade, Knicks hovered around 20th in defensive efficiency. Not good, but not top 5 either.

martin wrote:

Killa4luv wrote:

martin wrote:

Killa4luv wrote:There is no reason a man his size, with his athelticism shouldn't have won several rebounding titles. None whatsoever.

Coming in 2nd or 3rd year after year should be help against him? Especially with the likes of Rodman, Ben Wallace, Motumbo on the court doing only defense and rebounding?

And that's why we should hold it against him?

Weak argument.

Not really. Look at his numbers rebounding and points, prior to Phil Jax joining the team. and then right after. He jumped 3 points a game and 3 rebounds a game. Thise are pretty significant jumps. He was not playing 100% every night and there is no doubt he was a superstar.

Shaq has a rep as being a lazy guy and thats why hes been so often injured, he had poor conditioning. Thats the point. He still should have won at least one rebounding title. And I'll give him a pass for all of the Rodman years.

You are basing your entire premise on Shaq not being #1 in rebounding when he was clearly top in the league at it during his prime and was also #2 or #3 several times.

<shrugs shoulders>

Thas not my entire premise. Forget the rebounding title. The bottom line is Shaq didn't play 100% every night and hes a superstar by anyone's definition. That goes for many a superstar, btw. There is a reason Kobe is Kobe and other people with greater physical gifts, like Vince and T-mac for example, are not.

Having said that, Melo needs to up his level of intensity, no question about it. I'd like to see Melo get into better shape, and I'd certainly like to see him play tougher D.

Killa4luv wrote:Thas not my entire premise. Forget the rebounding title. The bottom line is Shaq didn't play 100% every night and hes a superstar by anyone's definition. That goes for many a superstar, btw. There is a reason Kobe is Kobe and other people with greater physical gifts, like Vince and T-mac for example, are not.

Having said that, Melo needs to up his level of intensity, no question about it. I'd like to see Melo get into better shape, and I'd certainly like to see him play tougher D.

Yeah, I am pretty sure we can all find games where Shaq, MJ, Magic, etc. didn't play 100%. BFD. (Maybe I should have said 99%?) Anyway, it's about as arbitrary as pointing out that Shaq never won a rebounding title, as if that would make him less a dominating rebounder. You are not really following the spirit of the argument/point.

It was to show the difference in what those guys did on a night-in and night-out basis, which was to play the right way pretty much not 100% but damn near close to it all the time; or as you say, Melo needs to up his level of intensity, and especially on the defensive end, not just 1 out of every 10-20 games. Cause we pay him like a superstar and that's how much of the cap he is taking up, and quite frankly, that's where our expectations are. Same with Amare.

NYKBocker wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

islesfan wrote:

fishmike wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:It's a head coach's job to get his team to play with effort. D'antoni has been unable to do so up until yesterday, which is why I want him fired.

What's not to understand?

high-larious

MDA gets FULL credit for Melo's good game right? Thank god MDA got Melo to play hard. Maybe this coaching thing is starting to click and we should keep him? At least until Melo forgets what MDA told him and goes back to floating and loafing on D

Who gets FULL credit for the Knicks being bad defensively and not playing hard all year? the head coach or a guy who showed up a month ago?

Gotta love how Melo catches all the heat now for the Knicks lack of defense, even when they know D'antoni wasn't known for defense years before either he or Melo joined New York.

The effort on defense before the trade was there. Even Amare was blocking shots. I am not sure what you guys are talking about. Gallo, Chandler, Timo, and Felton all gave good effort in the defensive side of the game.

Heres what we are talking about:

In 2008 BM (Before Melo) we gave up 108 pts per and allowed opponents to shoot 48%. In 2009 BM (Before Melo) we gave up, 106 pts and allowed the opponents to shoot 47%. This year we gave up about 105 pts per BM (before Melo) and allowed the opponents to shoot about 49%. Blocked shots doesnt a defense make. And no, they didn't give great defensive effort every night.

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

islesfan wrote:

fishmike wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:It's a head coach's job to get his team to play with effort. D'antoni has been unable to do so up until yesterday, which is why I want him fired.

What's not to understand?

high-larious

MDA gets FULL credit for Melo's good game right? Thank god MDA got Melo to play hard. Maybe this coaching thing is starting to click and we should keep him? At least until Melo forgets what MDA told him and goes back to floating and loafing on D

Who gets FULL credit for the Knicks being bad defensively and not playing hard all year? the head coach or a guy who showed up a month ago?

Gotta love how Melo catches all the heat now for the Knicks lack of defense, even when they know D'antoni wasn't known for defense years before either he or Melo joined New York.

Hey.. if Melo will play hard on defense for another coach bring him in.

martin wrote:

Killa4luv wrote:Thas not my entire premise. Forget the rebounding title. The bottom line is Shaq didn't play 100% every night and hes a superstar by anyone's definition. That goes for many a superstar, btw. There is a reason Kobe is Kobe and other people with greater physical gifts, like Vince and T-mac for example, are not.

Having said that, Melo needs to up his level of intensity, no question about it. I'd like to see Melo get into better shape, and I'd certainly like to see him play tougher D.

Yeah, I am pretty sure we can all find games where Shaq, MJ, Magic, etc. didn't play 100%. BFD. (Maybe I should have said 99%?) Anyway, it's about as arbitrary as pointing out that Shaq never won a rebounding title, as if that would make him less a dominating rebounder. You are not really following the spirit of the argument/point.

It was to show the difference in what those guys did on a night-in and night-out basis, which was to play the right way pretty much not 100% but damn near close to it all the time; or as you say, Melo needs to up his level of intensity, and especially on the defensive end, not just 1 out of every 10-20 games. Cause we pay him like a superstar and that's how much of the cap he is taking up, and quite frankly, that's where our expectations are. Same with Amare.

We agre on that, but my point in bringing in Shaq, who was a superstar and hall of famer, is that he was an underachiever, someone known as lazy, who had alot of bad habits and was able to be dominant just because of his skill set at his size and his athleticism.