nixluva wrote:

martin wrote:

nixluva wrote:

martin wrote:

nixluva wrote:Every negotiation is different and the circumstances surrounding them is different. This guy is worth the expense cuz the Knicks already have Amar'e and you don't want to mess around when you can go all in and get the 2nd guy in Melo. You worry about replacing a guy like Gallo later. I'm assuming they don't believe Gallo will end up being an elite player or else I don't believe they would've put him on the table. The Knicks made that same determination with Hill and AR. You have to make that kind of decision and live with it.

but literally, how do you upgrade significantly? see my post above.

You have to look at young players that haven't reached the big dollar point yet. Vets that are willing to be part of a winning situation as well. It's entirely possible that Donnie has some guys in mind that he'll try to deal for. There are options. There's always some player that a team has fallen out of love with, but that has good talent. Maybe a kid like Mayo.

EVERY TEAM CAN DO THAT.

Miami starts with Bosh, LeBron, Wade and does the above. How is a team of Amare, Melo gonna do the same and be better?

What is your point exactly? Each GM competes to try and build the best team they can. They look for the best combination that can provide the best chemistry and fit. Who's to say that the Heat make the better choices verses the players the Knicks bring in? Since we don't know who the Knicks will eventually add and how that will effect the team, why assume that they can't find a better supporting cast? It's entirely possible that the Knicks could make a deal to bring in a good talent that puts us on par with the Heat. Unless you're suggesting it's impossible.

I am suggesting that this is highly improbable.

I am putting out the cap situation for the Knicks and asking you to put yourself in Donnie's shoes and have plan C, D, E, F ready after you trade for Melo, cause that's the astute thing to do. You can't just close your eyes and just pronounce the Knicks will get better enough to beat CHI, MIA, etc.

CrushAlot wrote:

martin wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

martin wrote:the point is they didn't and they had a pathway past second round, and that's how the Knicks should deal.

Answer the question asked. It's a perfectly fair question.

It's also a bit dubious to isolate either a once-in-history free agent season (Miami) or an extremely rare gift trade (Gasol) and offer that up as the path the Knicks should try to follow.

Gasol isn't happening again, which is the biggest takeaway from your attempt at parable.

Every team should answer a trade scenario this way: 1) Does it make my team better? 2) Does it lead directly to championship contending team (ala Boston) or 3) if not #2, does it make me better while also leaving me with enough room to still build significantly (within a reasonable time period) towards a championship contending team.

IMHO, the proposed deal with NY-DEV only does #1 and hand-cuffs them because of lack of assets and cap space.

Regarding, Lakers-Memphis, I may have added in one of Bynum/Odom (but certainly not both) but demanded something a lot more from Memphis, but I also would take into account what I had on my shelf that would allow me to keep building (unless I thought that Pau minus Odom, if that were the trade, was good enough to compete).

Again, here it is,

Amare  		 $19.9 
Melo		 $19.9 
Turiaf 		
Mozgov 		 $3.1 
TD		 $2.0 
Williams 	 $1.0 
Rautins 	 $1.0 
Fields 		 $3.0 
2011 First Round $1.0 
-------------------------		
		 $50.9 

Without a 2012, 2014 pick and a 36 year old expiring Chauncy, how does that team upgrade significantly enough to beat CHI, MIA, LAL, OKC, with the general assumption that those teams could also upgrade in small bits too and will compete for the same UFA's.

Knicks need to upgrade defense, starting PG, bench depth, backup PG. And we also assume that Moz and Fields are good enough starting caliber players for deep playoff team.

I totally agree. It has been a fun three and a half months of being a fan of an up and coming team that is doing things the right way. Now it appears that the Knicks are going back to their old ways and the franchise will be handcuffed for the future because of trading away draft picks, assets and giving up cap space. The rumors of Isiah's involvement on top of this is just too much. The original offer of Chandler or Gallo plus Curry and a first round pick was more than fair to offer for a guy that was going to walk at the end of the season for nothing in my opinion.

Sometimes I get the feeling that fans are more enthralled with potential and the idea what could be as opposed to what is happening today. You say this team was up and coming but IMO, this currently constructed roster was never going to break into the top 5 and to be frank there's a good chance the Sixers could run past us dropping us down to 7th. If you have a chance to secure a 2nd star to play alongside Amare, you have to do it. How many summers are we going to go into where another teams star flirts with us only to go elsewhere? Ypu pull the tirgger and figure out the surrounding pieces later. Talent like this doesn't become availble that often.

Uptown wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

martin wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

martin wrote:the point is they didn't and they had a pathway past second round, and that's how the Knicks should deal.

Answer the question asked. It's a perfectly fair question.

It's also a bit dubious to isolate either a once-in-history free agent season (Miami) or an extremely rare gift trade (Gasol) and offer that up as the path the Knicks should try to follow.

Gasol isn't happening again, which is the biggest takeaway from your attempt at parable.

Every team should answer a trade scenario this way: 1) Does it make my team better? 2) Does it lead directly to championship contending team (ala Boston) or 3) if not #2, does it make me better while also leaving me with enough room to still build significantly (within a reasonable time period) towards a championship contending team.

IMHO, the proposed deal with NY-DEV only does #1 and hand-cuffs them because of lack of assets and cap space.

Regarding, Lakers-Memphis, I may have added in one of Bynum/Odom (but certainly not both) but demanded something a lot more from Memphis, but I also would take into account what I had on my shelf that would allow me to keep building (unless I thought that Pau minus Odom, if that were the trade, was good enough to compete).

Again, here it is,

Amare  		 $19.9 
Melo		 $19.9 
Turiaf 		
Mozgov 		 $3.1 
TD		 $2.0 
Williams 	 $1.0 
Rautins 	 $1.0 
Fields 		 $3.0 
2011 First Round $1.0 
-------------------------		
		 $50.9 

Without a 2012, 2014 pick and a 36 year old expiring Chauncy, how does that team upgrade significantly enough to beat CHI, MIA, LAL, OKC, with the general assumption that those teams could also upgrade in small bits too and will compete for the same UFA's.

Knicks need to upgrade defense, starting PG, bench depth, backup PG. And we also assume that Moz and Fields are good enough starting caliber players for deep playoff team.

I totally agree. It has been a fun three and a half months of being a fan of an up and coming team that is doing things the right way. Now it appears that the Knicks are going back to their old ways and the franchise will be handcuffed for the future because of trading away draft picks, assets and giving up cap space. The rumors of Isiah's involvement on top of this is just too much. The original offer of Chandler or Gallo plus Curry and a first round pick was more than fair to offer for a guy that was going to walk at the end of the season for nothing in my opinion.

Sometimes I get the feeling that fans are more enthralled with potential and the idea what could be as opposed to what is happening today. You say this team was up and coming but IMO, this currently constructed roster was never going to break into the top 5 and to be frank there's a good chance the Sixers could run past us dropping us down to 7th. If you have a chance to secure a 2nd star to play alongside Amare, you have to do it. How many summers are we going to go into where another teams star flirts with us only to go elsewhere? Ypu pull the tirgger and figure out the surrounding pieces later. Talent like this doesn't become availble that often.

Knickoftime wrote:

Without a 2012, 2014 pick and a 36 year old expiring Chauncy, how does that team upgrade significantly enough to beat CHI, MIA, LAL, OKC, with the general assumption that those teams could also upgrade in small bits too and will compete for the same UFA's.

Knicks need to upgrade defense, starting PG, bench depth, backup PG. And we also assume that Moz and Fields are good enough starting caliber players for deep playoff team.

You can ask this same question a hundred times, but when asked WHO else the Knicks can get if they don't acquire 'Melo and HOW, and your answer is I have no idea, I just like the IDEA that maybe they might be able to sometime in the future, then you lose credibility.

And I will say this again...

Chandler gets a raise this year.

Gallinari and Fields next year and a decision has to be made on Felton.

This idea that Chandler/Gallinari/Felton gives them indefinite flexibility is simply wrongheaded,

Let's make assumption that Chandler is $8M next year.

I am also going to assume that at the beginning of next year the Knicks, if they stay together as a whole, are mostly the same team roster wise. I will make a slight assumption that the team as a whole are better than this year: They will have had a year together; Chandler, Gallo, Moz, Fields still have growing room (IMHO Moz and Fields will get significantly better and also recall that this past offseason was really the first the both Chandler and Gallo could practice for an entire off-season). Before next season, 2011 pick is up, and Donnie has slight maneuverability with AR to upgrade his backup PG spot, which is the Knicks' weakest position. I think those are all reasonable things.

Without the need to figure out his rotations and starting lineup, MDA and team have an advantage over year 2010/2011 in terms of how to attach season. Moz settles down from last year and is OK enough to start full time. I think this alleviates Turiaf from starting and playing minutes towards which he will get hurt; ie, he plays the role of back as he should.

The Knicks as a team are better *and* more importantly individuals like Gallo, Chandler, Moz, Fields are also better than before because of the extra year of experience. This would increase their values some. Not sure how much. I don't think this is too much of a stretch.

CP3 or Deron come up. I believe that if Orlando tanks in playoffs Dwight will grumble enough and may scare his ownership ****less.

Those are 3 guys you can target while growing your team internally.

If Utah wants value for a departing Deron: Chandler(or Gallo)/Felton/TD/2011 pick, 2013 pick. Utah will need a starting PG to replace Deron and don't think Hayward is ready to be a starter yet. Utah can be competitive for another year or 2 with Jefferson, Millsap, Chandler/Gallo, Felton, Raja, Okur, Gordan, CJMiles and they can also rebuild after that.

Same deal with CP3. Or if NO wants cap relief: CP3/OK4: Chandler/Felton/Moz/Turiaf/2013 pick.

For Dwight, I may give up a lot cause I think a front line of Dwight, Amare, Felton can compete against anyone: Moz/Turiaf/Gallo/Chandler/picks.

Dwight has indicated either NY or LA. I think LA has a better shot at him IF they want to break up a team that just won 3 championships, I think they win this year.

CrushAlot wrote:Chandler and Gallinari are already good players and are only 22 and 23. Felton is a very good player, has a great contract and is only 26.

As is Anthony.

Adding Mozgov who has been a starter for parts of the year means that 4/5's of the Knicks starting line up is being sent out in this trade. When you consider you are sending out a huge expiring contract, 3 mil in cash, a 21 year old lottery pick who oozes with potential and the 2014 draft pick, I think you don't acquire a better player for that unless he is one of the top 2 or 3 players in the NBA. Anthony is good but he is not that guy. His contract is expiring and he wants to come to NY anyway.

I'm not advocating Mosgov/Chandler/Gallo.

They can have any 2 they like. Not three.

CrushAlot wrote:

Uptown wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

martin wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

martin wrote:the point is they didn't and they had a pathway past second round, and that's how the Knicks should deal.

Answer the question asked. It's a perfectly fair question.

It's also a bit dubious to isolate either a once-in-history free agent season (Miami) or an extremely rare gift trade (Gasol) and offer that up as the path the Knicks should try to follow.

Gasol isn't happening again, which is the biggest takeaway from your attempt at parable.

Every team should answer a trade scenario this way: 1) Does it make my team better? 2) Does it lead directly to championship contending team (ala Boston) or 3) if not #2, does it make me better while also leaving me with enough room to still build significantly (within a reasonable time period) towards a championship contending team.

IMHO, the proposed deal with NY-DEV only does #1 and hand-cuffs them because of lack of assets and cap space.

Regarding, Lakers-Memphis, I may have added in one of Bynum/Odom (but certainly not both) but demanded something a lot more from Memphis, but I also would take into account what I had on my shelf that would allow me to keep building (unless I thought that Pau minus Odom, if that were the trade, was good enough to compete).

Again, here it is,

Amare  		 $19.9 
Melo		 $19.9 
Turiaf 		
Mozgov 		 $3.1 
TD		 $2.0 
Williams 	 $1.0 
Rautins 	 $1.0 
Fields 		 $3.0 
2011 First Round $1.0 
-------------------------		
		 $50.9 

Without a 2012, 2014 pick and a 36 year old expiring Chauncy, how does that team upgrade significantly enough to beat CHI, MIA, LAL, OKC, with the general assumption that those teams could also upgrade in small bits too and will compete for the same UFA's.

Knicks need to upgrade defense, starting PG, bench depth, backup PG. And we also assume that Moz and Fields are good enough starting caliber players for deep playoff team.

I totally agree. It has been a fun three and a half months of being a fan of an up and coming team that is doing things the right way. Now it appears that the Knicks are going back to their old ways and the franchise will be handcuffed for the future because of trading away draft picks, assets and giving up cap space. The rumors of Isiah's involvement on top of this is just too much. The original offer of Chandler or Gallo plus Curry and a first round pick was more than fair to offer for a guy that was going to walk at the end of the season for nothing in my opinion.

Sometimes I get the feeling that fans are more enthralled with potential and the idea what could be as opposed to what is happening today. You say this team was up and coming but IMO, this currently constructed roster was never going to break into the top 5 and to be frank there's a good chance the Sixers could run past us dropping us down to 7th. If you have a chance to secure a 2nd star to play alongside Amare, you have to do it. How many summers are we going to go into where another teams star flirts with us only to go elsewhere? Ypu pull the tirgger and figure out the surrounding pieces later. Talent like this doesn't become availble that often.

Gallinari is 22 years old and is averaging 16 and 5. Chandler is 23 and is averaging 16, 6 and 1.4 blocks. Felton has a great contract, is 26 and is averaging 17 and 9. Curry has an 11 million dollar expiring contract. Remember what the Knicks gave up to get McGrady's cap space? Randolph was a lottery pick and despite his exile in NY has shown that he can put up big time numbers in the nba and is only 21. The first round pick in 14 and the 3 mil was all too much. Now adding Mozgov is over the top. In addition the Knicks are taking back bad contracts.

As Knickoftime said, the point of collecting assets and cap space is to use it to acquire better talent. Lets say we walk away from this deal, and are faced with the decision of resigning Chandler at summers end (who is said to be looking for about 10 per). Not to mention Gallo and Felton will need to be reuped after next season. No way do you tie up the cap with these players.