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OT Egypt
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Markji
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2/1/2011  9:21 AM    LAST EDITED: 2/1/2011  10:57 AM
Protests now spreading to Jordan.

Jordan's King Fires Cabinet Amid Protests

By JAMAL HALABY, Associated Press – 13 mins ago
AMMAN, Jordan – Jordan's King Abdullah II fired his government Tuesday in the wake of street protests and asked an ex-prime minister to form a new Cabinet, ordering him to launch immediate political reforms.
The dismissal follows several large protests across Jordan_ inspired by similar demonstrations in Tunisia and Egypt — calling for the resignation of Prime Minister Samir Rifai, who is blamed for a rise in fuel and food prices and slowed political reforms....

When he ascended to the throne in 1999, King Abdullah vowed to press ahead with political reforms initiated by his late father, King Hussein. Those reforms paved the way for the first parliamentary election in 1989 after a 22-year gap, the revival of a multiparty system and the suspension of martial law in effect since the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.

But little has been done since. Although laws were enacted to ensure greater press freedom, journalists are still prosecuted for expressing their opinion or for comments considered slanderous of the king and the royal family.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110201/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_jordan_cabinet

One of the main reasons for these uprisings is the rise in food prices. For a poor person in a 3rd world country, the cost of food for their family is their major expense. When that cost rises, it seriously has a major impact on people and on the economy. If it could only spread to Iran with a peaceful change in their gov't.

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misterearl
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2/1/2011  10:11 AM    LAST EDITED: 2/1/2011  10:14 AM
Point of No Return

Two million people are in Tahrir Square, willing to die for something they believe in.

The complexity of a society most Americans know little or nothing about staggering

What happens when the routine of daily life comes to a halt and money does not change hands, products are not delivered?

How is is restarted... state television stations go off the air and people text the answers via social media?

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Moonangie
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2/1/2011  2:25 PM
It will always be in our long-term interests to support democratic movements in the Arab Middle East. Egyptians are well-educated (compared with some other Arab countries), have a rich culture and are moderate. They deserve this revolution and in the long-run, it will benefit Israel and the U.S.

I have Egyptian friends who will be very glad when a stable, elected government is in place. They have always feared the police state of Mubarak. Hopefully, the military realized they are the fulcrum between chaos and a bright future.

This could represent the beginning of a new peaceful Middle East.

SupremeCommander
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2/1/2011  2:32 PM
misterearl wrote:Point of No Return

Two million people are in Tahrir Square, willing to die for something they believe in.

The complexity of a society most Americans know little or nothing about staggering

What happens when the routine of daily life comes to a halt and money does not change hands, products are not delivered?

How is is restarted... state television stations go off the air and people text the answers via social media?

good post. I think the social media component is interesting, but not terribly important. The French Resistance would have manifested itself via the web if it existed because of the ease of transferring information. If the government unplugs the web, information will still spread in a low technology method, and likely incite anger for attempting to block--as it's calle din the region--The Will of God

DLeethal wrote: Lol Rick needs a safe space
simrud
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2/1/2011  3:20 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/1/2011  3:21 PM
I would like to think that something good will come out of this, but history points in the other direction.

If the current regime does fall, there will be a power vacum. Only organization with capability to fill this vacum is the Muslim Brotherhood.

Now, some of you liberal folk will aruge that they are really a nice organization that does charity work etc., and I will not even bother to argue because it is a waste of time. I will just say one thing, everybody will regreat it for decades to come if they do in fact come to control Egypt or any other Arab country for that matter.

A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
SupremeCommander
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2/1/2011  3:34 PM
simrud wrote:I would like to think that something good will come out of this, but history points in the other direction.

If the current regime does fall, there will be a power vacum. Only organization with capability to fill this vacum is the Muslim Brotherhood.

Now, some of you liberal folk will aruge that they are really a nice organization that does charity work etc., and I will not even bother to argue because it is a waste of time. I will just say one thing, everybody will regreat it for decades to come if they do in fact come to control Egypt or any other Arab country for that matter.

I don't agree with you one bit. You are assuming that there is a right way for the people to organize themselves. We have a democratic state. They have the Muslim religion. Our government promotes the separation of church and state. The Islamic people believe it is impossible to separate their religion from their actions.

The issue has absolutely nothing to do with relgion or being secular. What it has to do with is the alloction and distribution of assets and wealth. The lack of developed social institutions to promote a middle class. A lack of a functioning legal system and an enforcement system whose task it is to maintain status quo.

What does any of this has to do with how people worship and the value of their religion?

DLeethal wrote: Lol Rick needs a safe space
simrud
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2/1/2011  3:40 PM
You can't possibly agree with me because you did not even address any of my post.

If you think that an organization such as the Mulsim Brotherhood can run a state that leads to all the nice things you are talking about, you are mistaken, that's all.

And oh by the way, having a state that is run without separation of church and state menas that this state is not a free one by definition. If you are ok with that, you are basically saying that somehow Arabs, Mulsims, or whatever, do not need a free state. Somehow they are so alien to us that they need to be ruled by a theocracy to have prosperity. There I have to 100% disagree with you.

A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
SupremeCommander
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2/1/2011  3:47 PM
simrud wrote:You can't possibly agree with me because you did not even address any of my post.

If you think that an organization such as the Mulsim Brotherhood can run a state that leads to all the nice things you are talking about, you are mistaken, that's all.

And oh by the way, having a state that is run without separation of church and state menas that this state is not a free one by definition. If you are ok with that, you are basically saying that somehow Arabs, Mulsims, or whatever, do not need a free state. Somehow they are so alien to us that they need to be ruled by a theocracy to have prosperity. There I have to 100% disagree with you.

I didn't address the points in your previous post because it is nonsensical. I'm sorry, a cult isn't pulling the strings. Your elementary understanding of Arabs, Mulsims, or whatever is so elementary and misguided it isn't worth discussing the finer points.

DLeethal wrote: Lol Rick needs a safe space
simrud
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2/1/2011  7:09 PM
So I suppose we have to agree that we consider each other total morons. Cool - I expected this anyways, these arguments usually turn out that way I suppose. Don't know why I bother to talk sense with guys like you, its always the same thing. Some version of you don't get the situation as well as I do and a refusal to talk about specific aspects of the situation.

Fact is, you have a set of opinoins formed by the liberal intellectual elite that you don't really understand, and thus are not able to partake in an intelligent discussion. So you are convinced of things by somebody you consider an authority, yet are not able to articulate your position to any degree.

A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
simrud
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2/1/2011  7:13 PM
You probably would have been amongst the folks cheering along as the Shah's regime collapsed in Iran, or when Castro came to power in Cuba. After all your sociology college professor told you that these were all good things, so it must be so.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
orangeblobman
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Nauru
2/1/2011  7:14 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/1/2011  7:17 PM
simrud wrote:So I suppose we have to agree that we consider each other total morons. Cool - I expected this anyways, these arguments usually turn out that way I suppose. Don't know why I bother to talk sense with guys like you, its always the same thing. Some version of you don't get the situation as well as I do and a refusal to talk about specific aspects of the situation.

Fact is, you have a set of opinoins formed by the liberal intellectual elite that you don't really understand, and thus are not able to partake in an intelligent discussion. So you are convinced of things by somebody you consider an authority, yet are not able to articulate your position to any degree.

+1

I think Jesus said "don't throw jewels in front of swine", or something to that effect.

WE AIN'T NOWHERE WITH THIS BUM CHOKER IN CARMELO. GIVE ME STARKS'S 2-21 ANY DAY OVER THIS LACKLUSTER CLUSTEREFF.
SupremeCommander
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2/1/2011  7:32 PM
simrud wrote:So I suppose we have to agree that we consider each other total morons. Cool - I expected this anyways, these arguments usually turn out that way I suppose. Don't know why I bother to talk sense with guys like you, its always the same thing. Some version of you don't get the situation as well as I do and a refusal to talk about specific aspects of the situation.

Fact is, you have a set of opinoins formed by the liberal intellectual elite that you don't really understand, and thus are not able to partake in an intelligent discussion. So you are convinced of things by somebody you consider an authority, yet are not able to articulate your position to any degree.

those A-rabs should be aworshippin you cuz yer a gosh dan geee-nius

lol I'm not even going to get into why my opinion is shaped the way it is. Awful presumptuous on your part. But as long as we're levying perceived stereotypes on one another, I think the reason you are so dense is because you get your secular free state views from politicians that pander to God Fearin Christians

DLeethal wrote: Lol Rick needs a safe space
simrud
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2/1/2011  10:39 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/1/2011  10:39 PM
Maybe if you bothered to engage in intellectual discussion where you back up your opinion with valid points, the conversation would be different.

Since you refuse to do so, and instead continue to brush off everybody that disagrees with you, one has no choice but to assume that you are not capable of intellectual debate in the first place. Which is a shame.

A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
simrud
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2/1/2011  10:41 PM
Also, please do elaborate on how separation of church and state is pondering to Christians, or any religion for that matter. You make no sense whatsoever.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
martin
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2/1/2011  11:25 PM
simrud wrote:Maybe if you bothered to engage in intellectual discussion.

simrud, if you want to do the same it's probably better to not start your postings with this:

simrud wrote:Now, some of you liberal folk will aruge that they are really a nice organization that does charity work etc., and I will not even bother to argue.

that's not at all discussion or engaging.

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PresIke
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2/2/2011  10:03 AM
terrible turn of events right now...

these co-called "pro-government" protesters (more like beneficiaries of mubarak's regime) just showed up out of nowhere, and what do you know...inciting violence...

probably trying to get the military to get involved and shut everything down for the "sake of stability"

horrible.

the u.n. secratary general just said that attacking non-violent protesters is wrong...the suggestion is that this may be a comment on mubarak's regime or beneficiaries of his power being behind this...

Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
PresIke
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2/2/2011  10:16 AM    LAST EDITED: 2/2/2011  10:17 AM
simrud wrote:You probably would have been amongst the folks cheering along as the Shah's regime collapsed in Iran, or when Castro came to power in Cuba. After all your sociology college professor told you that these were all good things, so it must be so.

this is a highly simplistic way of viewing revolutions.

i already answered this earlier, but why was it that an islamicist republic rose in iran in the first place? it had many highly educated and secular folks who wanted something closer to a democratic system who were systematically repressed by the C.I.A.

where is the same criticism for america's behavior as a government in supporting atrocities and horrificly oppressive regimes that have led to assassination of leaders, kidnappings, repression of freedoms, and murder? can we not use this is a reason to critique american foreign policy?

you can't have it one way and not the other.

as for egypt, this is not even a remotely similiar situation. the overwhelming majority of protesters did not utter a word about having an islamic state, and the nation possesses a fairly large highly educated population.

trying to control and manipulate history through support of horrific policies and governments to always come out for good has proven to be an unrealistic policy that has led to a lot of the things you appear to be afraid of.

if we actually would support self-determination of people, you will find that most people, even in nations like iran (who so many seem to fear) i believe prefer peace over anything else.

how, as a human being who would likely want one's own self to be able to get an opportunity to choose one's life path, one can sit comfortably with not supporting peaceful demonstrations to overthrow an oppressive government, i do not know.

Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
PresIke
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2/2/2011  10:41 AM    LAST EDITED: 2/2/2011  10:42 AM
let me add...

if you improve people's economic situation, by eradicating poverty as much as possible, raise education, and awareness of others outside of one's own experience, the chance of radical anything winning goes far away...

Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
PresIke
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2/2/2011  10:48 AM    LAST EDITED: 2/2/2011  10:49 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/02/opinion/02dowd.html

“We were overly spooked by the victory of Hamas,” said Robert Kagan, a senior Brookings fellow, neocon and Iraq war advocate who co-founded the prescient Working Group on Egypt, a bipartisan group of Middle East experts who wanted to get the administration to press Mubarak to be more democratic.

The great fear that people have with Islamist parties is that, if they take part in an election, that will be the last election,” he continued. “But we overlearned that lesson and we need to get beyond that panicky response. There’s no way for us to go through the long evolution of history without allowing Islamists to participate in democratic society.

What are we going to do — support dictators for the rest of eternity because we don’t want Islamists taking their share of some political system in the Middle East? We’ve got to put our money where our mouth is.

“Obviously, Islam needs to make its peace with modernity and democracy. But the only way this is going to happen is when people speaking for Islam take part in the system. It’s incumbent on Islamists who are elected democratically to behave democratically."

Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
simrud
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2/2/2011  1:33 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/2/2011  1:34 PM
I see this situation as very similar to Iran prior to their islamic revolution. Iran's poplation, at least the urban part of it, was, and still is, highly educated and liberal.

What happened there was what often happens with revolutions, the most radical element of the movement took control by doing whatever it took to acomplish their goals while the other parts of the revolutionary moevement wasted their time debating, etc.

Same thing happened in Russia during what later became known as the "Communist" revolution. Communinsts were a minority part of the revolutionary movement, but because they were the most violent and decisive group, they took control of both the revolution and eventually the country.

Mulsim Brotherhood supporters are already calling El-Baradei a "donkey of the revolution" on the streets of Cario - meaning they view him, and the rest of actual majority of the protesters as a tool they would use to get where the Brotherhood wants to be.

A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
OT Egypt

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