BRIGGS wrote:

Finestrg wrote:It's a shame it's come to this -- I like Randolph a lot and I think he could've been helping this team all along..If it were up to me he would've been playing and very much a part of this rotation (I would've made it a point to instill a sense of trust & confidence in him that he obviously needs--I personally think that could be a big key with him) or at least he would've been given the same chance to succeed as Mozgov..I don't care what anyone says -- he was never given that opportunity and it's a crying shame because he's infinitely more talented than Moz... It's crazy to think that we need another big in the worst way, have for some time now in fact, and this kid was never given an opportunity to seize that role and grow with it (a 'real' opportunity mind you, not this quick look & dismissal MDA's given him ).

Moving on, if Minny's really interested in AR, there's no way I'm giving him up for Sebastian Telfair..His price tag has gotta be higher than that..I'm not even interested in Telfair (I actually think TD is playing a little better lately to be honest). A player I would be willing to take a chance on however is Kosta Koufos..As young as Randolph, this dude's a legit NBA C (7'1") with a good overall skillset..He's not getting substantial PT at all for whatever reason, currently behind Darko and Nikola Pekovic. I think he could operate well in this system -- he's a very good shooter for a guy that big with superior range, touch & form and while not necessarily known for rebounding, blocking shots or playing overly physical I think he could contribute in these areas as well if given enough playing time each game..Forget Telfair -- not interested in giving up AR for a troubled individual who would only amount to a rest-of-the-season rental, not to mention a guy who can't even crack the T-Wolves' rotation at the moment..Pass...Instead, how 'bout AR for Koufos or Koufos and their 2011 2nd rounder?? I think that's fair..At least we come out of it with a legit NBA center with considerable skill and youth. I think this guy could be the player they envisioned Mozgov to be..

As far as the draft, it's super early but two players that intrigue me for the Knicks are 6'10" PF Trey Thompkins (has an effective inside/outside game, something in between a PJ Brown/David West/slightly shorter LeMarcus Aldridge maybe) and 6'3" PG Demetri McCamey (not overly athletic or a blow-by type but he's smart & smooth with a good handle, a great passer--NCAA's top assist man in fact two years in a row now [surprising considering that Illinois club has lacked true offensive firepower of any kind recently], and he's a very good outside shooter. Clutch too..Randy Foye with more PG ability; maybe something closer to Chauncey Billups eventually (ceiling)..

Pick 20 or so: 6'10" PF Trey Thompkins, Georgia -- might go a little higher--his play's a little down from last season but if he starts playing bigger from here on in, it could warrant moving up a couple of slots to get him.

Early 30s Minnesota 2nd rounder: 6'3" PG Demetri McCamey, Illinois--same as TT, McCamey could go higher -- if he closes out the year strong (he's really been solid so far), maybe we move up a little to get him..He could give us that savvy passer we currently lack off the bench behind Felton. His stellar outside shooting would work nicely in this system as well (he's hitting his 3s at a 49.2% clip so far this year ).

2 "safe" type picks that fill needs..Sometimes that's the way to go..

I like Jordan Williams as our first round pick--if we can pick up a late 1 or early 2 via trade of Randolph--there will be several good PG prospects. We need an additional big man as bad as anything and while he still needs seasoning is NBA ready both in body and game. We need to rid ourselves of the excess we have on the bench.

Ill also throw in Nolan Smith with Freddette and Charles Jenkins as later round 1 or early 2 PG picks. Smith is really coming into his own and at 6-3 has that athletic ability size package that could make him special from the 1 G. This is why kids should stay in school if they can.

All good players..We couldn't go wrong with any of those guys..I don't know if Jordan Williams will be around when we pick though..Dude's not even on draft.net's mock which is crazy imho..He's playing like a surefire lottery pick -- top 10 definitely, maybe even top 5 by the time it's all said and done... Love to have him but I'm not sure if he'll be around when we pick..Trey Thompkins might be though..I like Thompkins; you've brought up Jason Thompson a lot recently -- this kid Thompkins is similar in many ways.

I think I might favor McCamey's natural passing/PG ability a little more over what these other PGs you mentioned bring to the table (Nolan Smith comes close though -- that kid's good). Like I said earlier, I think it's definitely notworthy that McCamey is able to come up with such high assist totals two years in a row on a team devoid of any real standout offensive talent. I mean what would he have averaged if he ran the show last year for Kentucky with that collection of talent, 10 dimes per??? Plus he's a well-put-together 6'3", sturdy, smooth, heady with a good handle & the kid can really shoot the ball, not to mention he'll take and make the big shot -- that's a nice combination of skills when you consider what we want out of our backup PG in this system.. From what I've seen, it's the overall footspeed and ability to drive and convert that could hold McCamey back slightly in the NBA -- that could make the difference in whether he develops into someone like Chauncey Billups or someone like Chris Duhon. I personally think he's a superior player than Duhon but we'll have to see...I think both Thompkins & McCamey are good enough to start in the NBA eventually..If things hold serve & we wind up picking around 20, I would hope for one or the other to still be on the board. If we could somehow figure out a way to nab both, that's a pretty damn good draft imho.

Finestrg wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

martin wrote:

Finestrg wrote:
GIVE AR A FRIGGIN' CHANCE HERE!! 10-20 games and let him play through mistakes in the beginning..If after 20 games he shows that he's not helping a-la Mozgov, he sits and you look elsewhere for help. It's late (this whole evaluation process should been conducted in the beginning of the season) but never too late..I say give him this whole month of January to come off the bench and really look to see if his skills can benefit and enhance the team. My bet is they would. I don't consider that "panicing," I consider that being smart about evaluating your own in-house talent and not just dismissing it outright..That's just foolish imho.

wait, that did happen for both Moz and AR. I think they will both get their chances again but not so that it would effect playoff chances.

I agree that it happened for Moz. Randolph was given 8 consecutive games. He had one 28 minute game but for the other 7 averaged under 9 minutes. I think he did a lot of looking over his shoulder as well during that 8 game run.

Knicks went on a 13-1 win streak. Hard to argue with that. AR was also hurt early in year. what can you do.

I don't think you can blame it on injury..The dude made it back from ankle trouble quick enough the first few games and was cleared to play..We haven't heard anything else about him being injuried since and i think we absolutely would have if that was indeed an issue.

Here's the bottom line:

Mozgov = 24 games, 9 starts, 253 total mins
Randolph = 13 games, 0 starts, 105 total mins

Not to mention the trust factor was completely different by the coach toward each player..That's not the same opportunity, sorry..

i am not sure I understand this logic. AR was hurt for about the first 5-10 games of the year. There was nothing you can do.

And do we take into account that Moz is completely a C and that AR is rail thin and can't play C and is mostly a 4? Where Amear gets minutes and so does Turiaf and Chandler?

Hello?

Moz averages 10 minutes a game and AR averages 8 and you really think that for the 2 extra minutes there is some kind of strange benefit that is being offered to Moz and not AR?

Marv wrote:

cheers wrote:

Marv wrote:

Papabear wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Papabear wrote:Papabear Says

We will never win a championship with D'Antoni as the head coach. He is head strong in his ways. He is now killing Amare and Felton and refuse to play guys like AR. He is messing with this kids head. If Amare goes down there goes our season. Walsh needs to step up and make him play AR.

Man what the HECK are you talking about? EVERY coach that wins is headstrong. That's doesn't make them wrong. How do you know that playing AR would solve the problem of playing Amar'e too many minutes? Also star players habitually play big minutes. The schedule has been more sparse lately so there are plenty of rest days. Also Mike is trying to use the bench more, but not at the expense of trying to win. Soon enough Donnie is gonna find an answer to the problem we have which is finding a rebounder. I think Timo will eventually get back into the rotation as well. It's too early to panic. We've played 31 games!

Papabear Says

With Mike D it's personal. This kid AR came to us as a hot prospect. Now the coaches should have worked with him and got him in some games. I don't know what the kid can do because Mike D won't play him. We still have the same old problems with this team even though we are winning inspite of Mike D you mark my word if they keep playing Amare like they are he will wear down. Big Centers are dubbling on him and he refuse to put AR in the game even for defense and rebounds. Mike D still believe that he can win a championship with a small team with no Center and play head games with his bench. Mike D wrong man for the Knicks. We will win games but never the big prize with him and his head games.

i have a different take on ar. when we picked him up i read through some golden state forums. pretty amazing what people were saying about ar who had watched every one of his nba games. they say he's an emotional freakshow. that at least once every game he would break out into a major pout and sulk that either resulted in tears or close to it. that he can’t handle criticism, rebuke, challenge or correction.

you can call people hatters or mda-apologists all you want, but the kid just might have some real issues that he has to conquer to be a player in this league, regardless of his physical talents. They might need to be addressed in practice and off-court, not in the spotlights of an nba game.

so ar got all the way to the nba and is making $2,000,000 this season but he has to get over being emo to be a successful bench player. lol.

people built with different personalities from stoic to emo.. it does not incapacitate them from achieving success in life. michael jordan is a championship HOF even though he had a severe gambling addiction during his playing days. all we asking ar is to be a bench player. play ar.

so we're gonna laud ron artest on one hand for coming to grips with his emotional issues and dismiss the impact on ar on the other? ever hear of roy tarpley? jr rider? eddy curry?

BlueSeats wrote:I don't get this whole idea that a guy needs to get PT to show what he can do. As a fan you need him to get PT to see what he can do, but if a coach doesn't like what he sees in practice/scrimmage why would he expect better in a game?

I understand that but to me that logic only goes so far. In the meantime what else are we doing to solve the problem? We still need another reliable frontline player that can produce a little -- points/rebounds/low block defense...Mozgov isn't that guy, Turiaf has some impact but he's in and out of the lineup with injuries too frequently and he contributes little offensively (whether he chooses not to shoot more or it's by design & he's told not to I dunno, it's still a problem---it's a little frustrating because if you look carefully, he's got some tools offensively) and so far we don't appear willing to either (a) break up our assets to trade for a veteran big, probably because we want to keep all assets intact for a possible deal for Melo at anytime leading up to the deadline or (b) cut Mason Jr and bring up the best NBDL or low-cost FA big we can find (there are several out there that could fit). None of these options are appealing to them yet neither is Randolph. So where the hell does that leave us?? We're just gonna ignore the lack of frontline depth and pretend it doesn't exist until it comes to bite us in the ass?? Is that it?? You show me a guy ON THE ROSTER that has talent at a spot that we're deficient, I'm gonna want to see him opperating in games to see if he's an answer...I'm greatful they gave Moz that opportunity -- he showed me he isn't the answer at this time..AR hasn't showed me he either can or can't be the guy -- he hasn't gotten the same opportunity..As a fan of the team and a man that has considerable respect for this kid's natural ability, it's frustrating. VERY FRUSTRATING!

I think this is a hard pill to swallow for Randolph right now -- he hasn't gotten a real opportunity here yet and he may now be beginning to suspect he may never get it for the Knicks..That's got to be tough to deal with - knowing you have the ability to help the team but also knowing your coach has zero faith & trust in you. People have been bringing up practice -- MDA has no patience for this kid the few times he's played in games; could it be a lot different in practice?? It's only natural to react a certain way when treated in such a way. I'm telling ya, and I know nobody believes this to be so but me but that's fine: right from jumpstreet I would've recongized the talent this kid had and I would've taken him under my wing and told him he was my guy..I would've instilled all the trust and faith in him that I could'ved mustered and I would've left him out there to work through mistakes early in the season..I would've told him it's yours to lose, the same way they told Mozgov...My bet is we would've been looking out a totally different player for us right now, a productive player. Instead, Mike all but rejected this kid and now we are where we are.

Finestrg wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Papabear wrote:Papabear Says

We will never win a championship with D'Antoni as the head coach. He is head strong in his ways. He is now killing Amare and Felton and refuse to play guys like AR. He is messing with this kids head. If Amare goes down there goes our season. Walsh needs to step up and make him play AR.

Man what the HECK are you talking about? EVERY coach that wins is headstrong. That's doesn't make them wrong. How do you know that playing AR would solve the problem of playing Amar'e too many minutes? Also star players habitually play big minutes. The schedule has been more sparse lately so there are plenty of rest days. Also Mike is trying to use the bench more, but not at the expense of trying to win. Soon enough Donnie is gonna find an answer to the problem we have which is finding a rebounder. I think Timo will eventually get back into the rotation as well. It's too early to panic. We've played 31 games!

I believe Papabear's making some sense here actually..Nix, you asked the following question: "how do you know that playing AR would solve the problem of playing Amar'e too many minutes"? I think you can only answer that question with another question -- how do you not know? Well I'll tell you how -- by shutting him down completely and never giving him a chance to play and see the light of day, that's how. Simple...I think it's safe to say we now know Mozgov isn't ready to help this team steadily but at least with that guy there was some trust, belief in his ability and a process..He was given a real chance to earn a big role in this rotation, even given a chance to start and given ample room to make mistakes and grow with the role..Thing is Timmy never really appeared to be making any true progress and thus had to sit. Point is Mozgov was given a real run; AR was given token mins here and there---there's a difference..I'm watching a replay of the Minny/Denver game right now -- let me ask you, how does Darko look now that he's playing for a team that's giving him an opportunity?? Mike never played this guy really and the few times he did get in he looked lost and confused..Sound familiar?? It's the same damn thing with Randolph all over again. And I don't buy the fact that assimilating AR into the rotation somehow runs the risk of us losing games..That's baloney..He could only help us..The point is you try it. We need another big man that can contribute on both ends beside Amar'e Stoudemire. That much is crystal clear..I believe those that are saying Amar'e playing too many mins could pose a problem down the road. Another 10 games and we're halfway through the season already -- where is this additional big man gonna come from??? Before looking elsewhere common sense dictates that you always look from within to solve any and all problems first..Give this kid a chance to help you. Am I really the only one out there that thinks it would be a complete waste if we let AR go now (and for garbage like Sebastian Telfair no less) w/o seeing firsthand if he could give our frontline at least some of what it's lacking???? Giving AR away for Telfair really is the Darko for Cardinal trade all over again...GIVE AR A FRIGGIN' CHANCE HERE!! 10-20 games and let him play through mistakes in the beginning..If after 20 games he shows that he's not helping a-la Mozgov, he sits and you look elsewhere for help. That's step 1 in going about solving this problem right there folks..It's late (this whole evaluation process really should've been conducted in the beginning of the season) but never too late..I say give him this whole month of January to come off the bench and really look to see if his skills can benefit and enhance the team. My bet is they would. I don't consider that "panicing," I consider that being smart about evaluating your own in-house talent and not just dismissing it outright..That's just foolish imho.

My friend, your tripping..Darko said it himself, that he came into camp totally out of shape, and understood MDA's call (after he left)..AR is totally a mess right now, even he said it, and his teammates feel the same way..he's not ready..You would be fired if you deceided to develope AR at the expense of W's and saving amre for what..to sit at the podium in secacaus for the draft, cause you surly won't be making any playoffs.

Mosgov played pretty well in camp, and MDA was trying to play Amare at his ideal position, he even gave rony the starting center, but once he relize that amare could handle the center postion easily in the east, and chandler was doing a nice job at the 4, why insert a player who is breaking the flow of the game, taking bad shots, not helping on "d" is just not comfortable in this system.

MDA is a bit stubburn in a lot of ways, but unless you were watching a diffeent AR, this kid has a long long way to go..when he did get minutes during our 3-8 start, we would lose leads, or fall deep in the hole...Is that what you want, then Amare must come back in the game and play even harder (risking injury) just to get back in the game.

Finestrg wrote:None of these options are appealing to them yet neither is Randolph. So where the hell does that leave us??

It leaves us with promising projects being trained from the ground up. They're not ready yet, but nor have we given up on them.

nixluva wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:I don't get this whole idea that a guy needs to get PT to show what he can do. As a fan you need him to get PT to see what he can do, but if a coach doesn't like what he sees in practice/scrimmage why would he expect better in a game?

I understand that but to me that logic only goes so far. In the meantime what else are we doing to solve the problem? We still need another reliable frontline player that can produce a little -- points/rebounds/low block defense...Mozgov isn't that guy, Turiaf has some impact but he's in and out of the lineup with injuries too frequently and he contributes little offensively (whether he chooses not to shoot more or it's by design & he's told not to I dunno, it's still a problem---it's a little frustrating because if you look carefully, he's got some tools offensively) and so far we don't appear willing to either (a) break up our assets to trade for a veteran big, probably because we want to keep all assets intact for a possible deal for Melo at anytime leading up to the deadline or (b) cut Mason Jr and bring up the best NBDL or low-cost FA big we can find (there are several out there that could fit). None of these options are appealing to them yet neither in Randolph. I mean what gives??

I think this is a hard pill to swallow for Randolph right now -- he hasn't gotten a real opportunity here yet and he may now be beginning to suspect he may never get it for the Knicks..That's got to be tough to deal with - knowing you have the ability to help the team but also knowing your coach has zero faith & trust in you. It's only natural to react a certain way when treated like that. I'm telling ya, and I know nobody believes this to be so but me: right from jumpstreet I would've recongized the talent this kid had and I would've taken him under my wing and told him he was my guy..I would've instilled all the trust and faith in him that I could'ved mustered and I would've left him out there to work through mistakes early in the season..I would've told him it's yours to lose, the same way they told Mozgov...My bet is we would've been looking out a totally different player for us right now, a productive player. Instead, Mike all but rejected this kid and now we are where we are.

Most of your post is conjecture. You can't say what Mike is or isn't doing to try and build the confidence of AR. The idea that he's rejected AR is also hard to prove. What we do know is that from independent observers who have seen some of the Knicks practices, AR is still frustrating his teammates and coaches by making mistakes. WHY should Mike put him out there with the guys who are trying to win and know what they're doing?

So what the hell's the solution then?? That's what it all boils down to for me -- a solution to come up with another serviceable big man..Trade Randolph off for pennies on the dollar right now, for a bust like Sebastian Telfair who won't even be on the roster next year, w/o ever attempting to tap into his vast ability & get anything out of him?? And in the process, as a huge fan of this team, sit here while a stubborn coach cuts off his nose to spite his face with this whole thing??? Nah, I'll leave that for you guys while I continue to speak out on the matter..

In the very same Alan Hahn article you posted (one which I read myself btw), he said the following preceeding the heavy criticism: "Randolph had a few standout moments in the post-practice scrimmage, mainly on drives to the basket in transition.." How come you didn't both to highlight & discuss that portion of the statement? And more importantly how come our coach refuses to build on positive moments like that?? Is that all this is about: dwell on all the negatives and never recognize & reward any positives?? Seems that way to me. I mean, LOL, that's EXACTLY what's been going on here...You mentioned Mike's system and offered up your opinion that Randolph hasn't been able to grasp it thus far and insinuated that he hasn't been bringing it in practice --- wtf, talk about conjecture -- has anyone come out and said this is the case?? You're making it sound like he's taking practices off like Allen Iverson used to do..All it looks like to me is the fact that every mistake the kid makes, whether it's system-related or not, gets overanalyzed and overcriticized by the head coach, much more than any other player.. I've actually heard assistant coach Dan D'Antoni come out and say the opposite -- he raves about the kid's practice sessions & his work ethic in fact (mentioning that he's one of the first guys in the gym routinely), saying that it's a long season and that he will definitely get a chance again.. When I heard that not too long ago all I thought was, Jesus, your mouth to your stubborn brother's ears Danny!!!!

As for your speculation and the great lengths you seem to go to protect this coach all the time I say this: maybe the system is a little overly complicated for some when it doesn't need to be..Darko Milicic, Jordan Hill, now Anthony Randolph and even Mozgov -- there's a little bit of a track record here..These guys are all similar support big men, all useful players, that this particular coach never got a damn thing out of -- two of which are now playing for different organization AND PRODUCING...Could it be that maybe the system is a little overly complicated for certain players and not others? How 'bout that??? Randolph in particular (he's by far the most talented out of any of these guys that haven't worked out and hence the most difficult situation to swallow for me) -- maybe there comes a time where you say to yourself, hey maybe I just put this kid out there with now restrictions, no shoehorning him into playing a certain way, only taking certain shots, operating only in certain places on the floor etc., AND JUST LET HIM PLAY BASKETBALL and do the things he's capable of doing, just like he does with guys like Amar'e, Gallo, Felton, Chandler, TD etc...I mean I'd try that as a solution before I ever threw in the towel on a guy with his talent, I can tell you that. That's my point and that will continue to be my point..Mike doesn't see it that way though..He seems intent on making it a much harder go for this particular kid for some reason..I for one don't think you play it like that with Randolph -- I think you let this guy rove on both ends and let him help out in any way possible, restriction free. Take a good look at this system and how Mike handles his personnel -- Amar'e, Ray, Gallo, Chandler, TD and even Fields are all allowed to take any shot, any time they want, from anywhere they want..Hey that's fine, I want these guys to have the freedom to pull the trigger from anywhere (I even have gone on the record saying I want Fields to take more shots)...Why not play it like that with AR?? Why a totally different set of rule for him? I tell ya it's that special set of rules that isn't working and has zapped every oz of confidence from him.. I'm more inclined to blame Mike for this kid not working out over the kid himself. Take a good hard look at the situation and you'll see there's at least some truth in what I might be saying. I wouldn't be making such a stink if I didn't feel like AR didn't have the talent & skill to help us..He does, that's the thing, and we haven't gotten a thing out of him..I just don't see the same sense of trust, faith, commitment & urgency to get him right by this coach as I do in some of his other players.

EDIT: to be fair, I acknowledge knicks1248's comment above talking about Darko coming out and saying a lot of the problem with him while here was here was his fault. That's true, he did say that. Point noted.

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:I'd rather keep AR and develop him and risk him just never getting it then trade him for sebastian telfair and watch him blow up elsewhere

Here is why I trade AR unless I get a shtty offer. I will take back a 1st round pick or 2 second round picks from a bad team and an ending contract or just a good player that could help now--i.e Grant Hill. If I have to--Ill bring him to SL next year and after a year of training and let him play 40 minutes and then trade him. The coach does not like AR and there is no way that he will conform to what is going on here in such a short time. I dont have time for this. I want the 3mm in cap space to help improve the club next year.

Listen Mosgov has terrible hands and randolph wont play the way MDA wants him to play--case closed. I have Jordan who I can bring in for 400k and if I can get a draft pick for Randolph--it will be less than half of his cost. Im willing to accept players developing for 450-1.5mm. Mosgov and Randoplh alone take up 6.5mm$ next year. Thats resigning Wilson Chandler.