knickstorrents wrote:

TMS wrote:yes, i realize we rely heavily on the 3 ball... that's a major problem i have w/this offense but it is what it is.

I see your point about this. The 3 point shot is a streaky kind of thing for most teams and shooters. But with the athletes playing in the NBA today, you need to be able to stretch the floor and make defenses pay if they pack the paint, or sag off the perimeter.

With an athletic team like Miami it's even more critical to have very good 3 point shooting. Lebron and Wade can cover so much ground defensively that you need it as a core component of your offense against them. Against other teams that are not as athletic you can use more midrange shot making perhaps.

i agree, it's important to have the ability to stretch a defense, but my concerns come into play when taking the 3 seems to be 1 of the central focuses of your offense... like i said, it's way too hit or miss a strategy to rely on consistently... it's not like i'm saying i think it's dumb to take 3's.

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

martin wrote:

TMS wrote:

The 3 ball is a major part of our offense and isn't some lucky thing we get once in a while as you seem to be making it out to be.

yes, i realize we rely heavily on the 3 ball... that's a major problem i have w/this offense but it is what it is.

The Heat's D is smothering but it's not unbeatable.

not too many teams seem to have figured out how to beat it... perhaps you should contact these teams & show them how to do it.

not sure if there is an imaginary cutoff, but lots of the top teams - LAL, SAS, Dallas, ORL - all shoot from 3point land a lot. NY is def tops, but it's backed up/justified by FG% and AFG% etc. In fact, I think I looked up the stats once on championship teams, and their 3PFG% and the 3PFGA were all pretty much top 10 in the league at the time.

I find it laughable that we're still debating the merits of this approach given the fact that when he's been able to do it, his teams win big.

i question his approach because no team has ever been able to win championships following this style of play, even when he's had a better roster than the one he's working with now... it's laughable to you that anyone would question it because you will defend MDA til the point of death regardless of what anyone says or feels to the contrary... u are a huge fan of MDA, which is your right, but not everyone has to share in your esteem of this coach or outlook on how they'd like to see this team play.

Has Mike ever had the strongest roster in the NBA? Usually that team ends up winning. It's just the nature of the league. In any event we can't judge coaches merely on whether they win titles, cuz there are a lot of great coaches that just haven't had the horses but did the best they could with what they had. Mike IMO gets his teams to overachieve. From everything i've see in his history that's been the case. His 62 win season was more than any expected. The 54 win season without Amar'e when they made it to the WCF's is another case of that. We are currently doing more than expected, so what the heck is your beef?

Papabear Says

I doesn't matter how many games you win. It only matter if you win the big prize. If Mike D never had the strongest team in the league It does not matter it's the championship that matters. Tough luck for him. The Knicks will be judged by them winning the the big prize. there is no prize for second place and if we do not win the big prize in the next 5 years it dosen't matter if we have Carmelo or not we will have failed. Point Blank. No Matter how great Miami is we must find a way to beat them year after year after year because we must go through them to get into the championship round.
Remember the Patrick Ewing years. No ring.

TMS wrote:

knickstorrents wrote:

TMS wrote:yes, i realize we rely heavily on the 3 ball... that's a major problem i have w/this offense but it is what it is.

I see your point about this. The 3 point shot is a streaky kind of thing for most teams and shooters. But with the athletes playing in the NBA today, you need to be able to stretch the floor and make defenses pay if they pack the paint, or sag off the perimeter.

With an athletic team like Miami it's even more critical to have very good 3 point shooting. Lebron and Wade can cover so much ground defensively that you need it as a core component of your offense against them. Against other teams that are not as athletic you can use more midrange shot making perhaps.

i agree, it's important to have the ability to stretch a defense, but my concerns come into play when taking the 3 seems to be 1 of the central focuses of your offense... like i said, it's way too hit or miss a strategy to rely on consistently... it's not like i'm saying i think it's dumb to take 3's.

Don't you feel that MDA has really tried to balance out the 3 pt shooting with other aspects of his "system?"

Besides the P&R, he has given Amare a lot of freedom to take his midrange jumpers- which have been deadly this year.

Felton, as PG, has also had a greater offensive role than Duhon had (or could perform)last year- and this includes drives, midrange pull-ups, and 3's. It would even seem that MDA made some tweaks to maxmize Felton's abilities as a player.

Throw in Fields and even Gallo, who seem to driving/cutting to the basket (with/without the ball) more often than anyone did last year.

I feel we've had a more diversified offense this year. Doesn't mean it's been perfect, or that guys are always making the right decisions, but it seems that everyone is usually on the same page and is willing to do what has to be done.

What I am saying is I don't have a big problem with shooting 20 3's a game (as high as 30 if we are on) but only when they are fairly open. I think hitting wide open 3's isn't that difficult. I hate the idea of an offense relying on 3's but after seeing this offense operate, I have to somewhat adjust that opinion. I still don't love it, but the shots are often so open that one can't really complain.

Now, to relate this to the topic of Miami. It is absolutely incredible how fast they are on defense on the perimeter. They closed in on many of our 3's in the second half and got very physical with us. Do we adjust? I still think we played a good game but the physicality and more contested 3's sunk us. I think we have to now raise our level on offense (passing the ball around the perimeter FASTER), to match their closing speed. I think we can as we have some intelligent ball movers out there in Gallo, Fields and Williams. I even think Chandler is ok here, just not in creating in general. I also think we have to space our outside shooters so that Miami's slowest outside "closer" is our target - wherever that may be.

What can we do regarding Miami's physicality? Not sure, but Amare was mauled last game and they didn't call it. I think he has to make any adjustments he can, but still be aggressive and not stupid in trying to take over - like last time. Hopefully the refs are more fair in this game as the last game was the worst I can remember no calls being.

Paladin55 wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:D'antoni's best chance to win with this style of play is to get Melo.

Bingo.

Ah yes, the panacea for all of our afflictions.

You just can't win with an offensive philosophy that thrives on the 3 ball and does not put a premium on defense. The guy had a 2 time MVP, Amar'e,and terrific role players and he still couldn't get it done because he got beat by teams that had defense and size.

Might as well have Amar'e and Melo here and jus have the next 5 years to be a consistent 50 win team for the fans.

Marv wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

Paladin55 wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:D'antoni's best chance to win with this style of play is to get Melo.

Bingo.

Ah yes, the panacea for all of our afflictions.

You just can't win with an offensive philosophy that thrives on the 3 ball and does not put a premium on defense. The guy had a 2 time MVP, Amar'e,and terrific role players and he still couldn't get it done because he got beat by teams that had defense and size.

Might as well have Amar'e and Melo here and jus have the next 5 years to be a consistent 50 win team for the fans.

18-12 says we don't need melo for that.

Postseason bro. Postseason.

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

Marv wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

Paladin55 wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:D'antoni's best chance to win with this style of play is to get Melo.

Bingo.

Ah yes, the panacea for all of our afflictions.

You just can't win with an offensive philosophy that thrives on the 3 ball and does not put a premium on defense. The guy had a 2 time MVP, Amar'e,and terrific role players and he still couldn't get it done because he got beat by teams that had defense and size.

Might as well have Amar'e and Melo here and jus have the next 5 years to be a consistent 50 win team for the fans.

18-12 says we don't need melo for that.

Postseason bro. Postseason.

oh that's right. i forgot about what the guy who's been bounced out in the 1st round 6 out of 7 years brings to the postseason.

JrZyHuStLa wrote:You just can't win with an offensive philosophy that thrives on the 3 ball and does not put a premium on defense.

I guess I never understood this line of thinking. MDA's offense is not based off of the 3 ball; it's not push the ball and get it to the shooter on the 3point line, and if that doesn't work, move the ball until you get an open 3. His philosophy IS based off of pushing the ball to get a good shot when the defense is not set, and if you can't get that, it's pick-n-roll with spacing. From an offensive perspective, this is not too far from what the LA Lakers did in the 80's: push the ball for easy shots, and then post a big man (Kareen, Worth, Magic) with shooters to space the floor and give poster room to operate. One was PnR, the other a post offense, both after pushing the ball and getting up best quick shot if available.

BTW, most of the best teams in the league shoot in the top 10 in 3balls 3PT FGA, this strain of philosophy of shooting a good # of 3's also hold true for other teams, albeit Knicks are definitely tops. I've said it before: I looked up the stats of Championship teams and most of them shot a lot of 3's and/or made a high % of their 3point FG relative to the rest of the league.

MDA does give confidence to his shooter to take the first wide open shot, but he also wants smart shots (and if you don't believe that, ask AR, Mason, TD about the amount that he has screamed at them after a bad shot within the offense).

In that same vein, we all saw MDA give confidence to Gallo and Chandler about shooting the 3 early in the year when they were both off - he said he would NEVER tell either of them to NOT shoot the 3ball or only limit them to a certain amount of 3ball shooting (but he certainly does want smart shots, as would any coach); I think that has payed off tremendously.

JrZyHuStLa wrote:The guy had a 2 time MVP, Amar'e,and terrific role players and he still couldn't get it done because he got beat by teams that had defense and size.

Does MVP mean that a player is a good defensive player?

I constantly look at MDA's teams (generally speaking): No real centers, Amare was young and not know for his defense, Shawn Marion, Raja Ball, Steve Nash. 3 of those positions were average or below average defenders. Marion and Bell were excellent.

As a whole, can you be a good defensive team when 3 of your starters are average or below average defensive players? And if not, was it the philosophy of team defense or that you just didn't have the horses to ride?

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

Marv wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

Marv wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

Paladin55 wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:D'antoni's best chance to win with this style of play is to get Melo.

Bingo.

Ah yes, the panacea for all of our afflictions.

You just can't win with an offensive philosophy that thrives on the 3 ball and does not put a premium on defense. The guy had a 2 time MVP, Amar'e,and terrific role players and he still couldn't get it done because he got beat by teams that had defense and size.

Might as well have Amar'e and Melo here and jus have the next 5 years to be a consistent 50 win team for the fans.

18-12 says we don't need melo for that.

Postseason bro. Postseason.

oh that's right. i forgot about what the guy who's been bounced out in the 1st round 6 out of 7 years brings to the postseason.

That's because he didn't have much help. It's the same thing we'll be saying about Amar'e in April if/when we get bounced out in the first round. We're a much better team with Melo and Stat as opposed to each of those guys being the only all stars on their respective teams.

KG was an MVP type player who never really experienced much success in the playoffs while with Minnesota until he switched teams and joined up with much better talent. I know he's a much better defender than Amar'e or Melo, but how does this not apply to them?

AI, Andre Miller, Chauncy, Nene, Kenyon Martin, Camby, Steve Blake. Denver has had some very odd-ball and ill-timed injuries, but to suggest that he didn't have help is nonsense.

martin wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:You just can't win with an offensive philosophy that thrives on the 3 ball and does not put a premium on defense.

I guess I never understood this line of thinking. MDA's offense is not based off of the 3 ball; it's not push the ball and get it to the shooter on the 3point line, and if that doesn't work, move the ball until you get an open 3. His philosophy IS based off of pushing the ball to get a good shot when the defense is not set, and if you can't get that, it's pick-n-roll with spacing. From an offensive perspective, this is not too far from what the LA Lakers did in the 80's: push the ball for easy shots, and then post a big man (Kareen, Worth, Magic) with shooters to space the floor and give poster room to operate. One was PnR, the other a post offense, both after pushing the ball and getting up best quick shot if available.

BTW, most of the best teams in the league shoot in the top 10 in 3balls 3PT FGA, this strain of philosophy of shooting a good # of 3's also hold true for other teams, albeit Knicks are definitely tops. I've said it before: I looked up the stats of Championship teams and most of them shot a lot of 3's and/or made a high % of their 3point FG relative to the rest of the league.

MDA does give confidence to his shooter to take the first wide open shot, but he also wants smart shots (and if you don't believe that, ask AR, Mason, TD about the amount that he has screamed at them after a bad shot within the offense).

In that same vein, we all saw MDA give confidence to Gallo and Chandler about shooting the 3 early in the year when they were both off - he said he would NEVER tell either of them to NOT shoot the 3ball or only limit them to a certain amount of 3ball shooting (but he certainly does want smart shots, as would any coach); I think that has payed off tremendously.

JrZyHuStLa wrote:The guy had a 2 time MVP, Amar'e,and terrific role players and he still couldn't get it done because he got beat by teams that had defense and size.

Does MVP mean that a player is a good defensive player?

I constantly look at MDA's teams (generally speaking): No real centers, Amare was young and not know for his defense, Shawn Marion, Raja Ball, Steve Nash. 3 of those positions were average or below average defenders. Marion and Bell were excellent.

As a whole, can you be a good defensive team when 3 of your starters are average or below average defensive players? And if not, was it the philosophy of team defense or that you just didn't have the horses to ride?

You just summed up that his philosophies are more offensive minded than defensive, which is what I'm saying. Can't win that way. Ask Popovich what his system is all about. He'll tell you it's not about getting out on the break and hitting the open man as much as its about defensive rotations and defending the pick n roll.

I'd have no problems with D'antoni's offensive style if it was less important to him than defense, but its not.