GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

TMS wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:TMS..it doesn't just bother the **** out of you that someone can get paid the max and..just kinda not care about defense?

I can understand if you're not quick laterally. If you're undersized. But you try and you get burned.

But Melo is quick laterally. He is strong. The sight of him loafing on defense with halfhearted effort and that one clip of him wandering around on D, it would just kill me to watch him do that.

The thought is that he can turn the defensive effort up when it matters but I think teams like Boston go far because they practice playing great team defense 82 games a season so come playoff time they don't even have to think about how they'll handle a situation and it's all just instinct and execution.

I dunno if you can have a real casual attitude about defense regular season and then all of a sudden you magically know exactly where to rotate and be on the floor come playoff time. Not to mention what it looks like for everyone else on the team when you're busting your ass out there and you see the Star CHILLIN.

this doesn't bother you at all?

I had similar concerns with Amare but it looks like he really CARES much more about D this season. I don't blame him for being careful with 5 fouls either. I won't blame Amare for not being able to guard real 5s. But not even trying in my books is kind of inexcusable.

Garnett. Duncan. Jordan. Pippen. Ewing. Hakeem.

Which one of these guys loafed around on defense and still felt whatever I can get buckets, I deserve a max salary. Kinda kills me..

sure it bothers me... like i've said all along, i'm not 100% enraptured with Melo's style of game... of course i'd rather have a 2 way all around superstar talent over Melo, but there are none available... Melo is the best player out there that we can realistically target, & i think he makes us a better team... that's all there is to it for me... i don't have any biases or pre-conceived notions about him not being able to take us to another level based on his history w/the Nuggets... i think he's had a HUGE positive impact on that franchise since he's been there personally... he gave those fans a legitimate star to root for... he brought legitimacy & a resurgent buzz to that city where it was pretty much a dead franchise ever since McDyess went down w/his knee injuries... i think adding him to a roster with Amare, Felton, Fields, Turiaf, Williams, Walker, Mozgov & either AR or a future MLE & draft selections would be balanced enough to contend for the Finals, & that's all we can realistically hope for at this point... we're talking about a 29 team last year that we can make into a Finals contender & guys are afraid to take the jump... it's mindboggling to me... if you could tell me we could make that drastic of an improvement in the span of a few months this past summer, i'd tell you you were crazy, but it seems to me like the opportunity is actually there... i think we need to seize the opportunity & not let it slip by because we're afraid to break up our current team... as DW has made it abundantly clear, he's not going to gut our entire roster to get Melo to NY... all these doomsday scenarios guys are posting up that we're going to give up all 4 of our young guys to get Melo are based on nothing.

& if Amare can make the turn around on his newfound dedication to defense, why can't Melo? & i don't care who you are, there isn't a player out there that will 100% give forth max effort on defense on every single possession while still carrying your team on offense... players need to pace themselves... sure, Melo loafs alot more than your average player, but i saw him turn it up on defense during that WCF series w/the Lakers playing Kobe man up on D... he impressed the hell out of me during that series & really before then my impression of him was not far off from the prevalent opinions that many of you have expressed in these debates... i just think Melo really wants to win & i think he'd be an excellent addition to the Knicks franchise, regardless of the fact that i can't really stand his smugness or his lapses on D.

I will agree with you that Melo can have a huge positive impact on this franchise.

There is a distinct possibility he can start caring about defense and become part of at least a decent defensive team.

I loved watching him decimate people @ Syracuse. I like that he's got that "can post up smaller defenders/drive by bigger ones" thing and def. has the guts to take and make huge shots in tight games.

His attitude about defense just bothers the hell out of me and is one of the reasons I'm on the fence about Melo rather than praying that we can land him. There may not be any better options over the next few seasons if we don't land him. Hopefully if that happens, DW can find a way to build around just 1 superstar. Cleveland and Orlando got to the finals with just 1 superstar right? San Antonio won with just one superstar though you can debate on whether Parker/Manu are Melo equivalents.

any Knick fan understandably prefers defense first minded players... all of our greatest players have always been about defense... i'm no different in that regard... hell John Starks is my favorite Knick of all time, that's all he was about, defense & heart... he got by with a limited offensive skillset because he just wanted it more than the next guy... i'm all about rooting for the underdog & all that & would love to see Wilson or Gallo turn into lifetime Knicks as much as the next guy (not that they're really "underdogs" as both were 1st round picks)... but i've never seen what this team could be with 2 legitimate superstars to root for... the idea intrigues me & i think we have that opportunity to make it a reality... if we can still hold onto a Landry Fields &/or an AR in the process, i think it offers us the best of both worlds.

AnubisADL wrote:

TMS wrote:

Donnie Walsh has said he will not gut the team to acquire a second max-salary player, and the Knicks are confident they can sign Anthony as an unrestricted free agent next summer if they do not acquire him in a trade. That being said, they'd prefer to trade for Anthony now and lock him up through 2014-15, which removes the uncertainty of not knowing what latitude they'll have in the free-agent market under the rules of the next collective bargaining agreement.

if we can get Melo for Wilson, Gallo & AR or a future 1st, then i think NY makes out well... we will be able to use both our MLE & LLE this summer in that case, & hold onto Landry Fields in the process... personally i'd rather include a future 1st than AR in that scenario, because if we're dealing Gallo & Wilson, i think it opens up a nice role for AR in this offense & i think he'll be able to produce w/regular burn & the confidence of knowing he'll be in the rotation on a regular basis.

I doubt Denver wants AR anyway. They'd rather have the pick.

I dont think Denver is interested in paying Chandler this summer either so I think they'd prefer Fields and 2nd round picks.

If Denver is willing to take Favors, Expiring, and picks then Gallo, Fields, Expirings and picks should be comparable. The issue is how many picks they expect in return.

once again, the Knicks can't match the Nets offer, nor should they even try to... the ball is completely in Melo's court, if he's not going to sign an extension w/NJ then DEN has no leverage here to demand we match NJ's offer to get Melo... if Melo agrees to a NJ trade, then so be it... we move on & consider other options... there's no way we can match that offer of Favors, Harris & 2 future #1's unless we gut our roster, which is something DW has pretty much already ruled out... i fail to see why people are so paranoid that it's gonna happen.

TMS wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

TMS wrote:

Donnie Walsh has said he will not gut the team to acquire a second max-salary player, and the Knicks are confident they can sign Anthony as an unrestricted free agent next summer if they do not acquire him in a trade. That being said, they'd prefer to trade for Anthony now and lock him up through 2014-15, which removes the uncertainty of not knowing what latitude they'll have in the free-agent market under the rules of the next collective bargaining agreement.

if we can get Melo for Wilson, Gallo & AR or a future 1st, then i think NY makes out well... we will be able to use both our MLE & LLE this summer in that case, & hold onto Landry Fields in the process... personally i'd rather include a future 1st than AR in that scenario, because if we're dealing Gallo & Wilson, i think it opens up a nice role for AR in this offense & i think he'll be able to produce w/regular burn & the confidence of knowing he'll be in the rotation on a regular basis.

I doubt Denver wants AR anyway. They'd rather have the pick.

I dont think Denver is interested in paying Chandler this summer either so I think they'd prefer Fields and 2nd round picks.

If Denver is willing to take Favors, Expiring, and picks then Gallo, Fields, Expirings and picks should be comparable. The issue is how many picks they expect in return.

once again, the Knicks can't match the Nets offer, nor should they even try to... the ball is completely in Melo's court, if he's not going to sign an extension w/NJ then DEN has no leverage here to demand we match NJ's offer to get Melo... if Melo agrees to a NJ trade, then so be it... we move on & consider other options... there's no way we can match that offer of Favors, Harris & 2 future #1's unless we gut our roster, which is something DW has pretty much already ruled out... i fail to see why people are so paranoid that it's gonna happen.

The reported offer is Favor's, Troy Murphy, and picks.

Harris is no longer in the trade my friend. I assume that is why King went out and got more picks.

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

TMS wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

TMS wrote:

Donnie Walsh has said he will not gut the team to acquire a second max-salary player, and the Knicks are confident they can sign Anthony as an unrestricted free agent next summer if they do not acquire him in a trade. That being said, they'd prefer to trade for Anthony now and lock him up through 2014-15, which removes the uncertainty of not knowing what latitude they'll have in the free-agent market under the rules of the next collective bargaining agreement.

if we can get Melo for Wilson, Gallo & AR or a future 1st, then i think NY makes out well... we will be able to use both our MLE & LLE this summer in that case, & hold onto Landry Fields in the process... personally i'd rather include a future 1st than AR in that scenario, because if we're dealing Gallo & Wilson, i think it opens up a nice role for AR in this offense & i think he'll be able to produce w/regular burn & the confidence of knowing he'll be in the rotation on a regular basis.

I doubt Denver wants AR anyway. They'd rather have the pick.

I dont think Denver is interested in paying Chandler this summer either so I think they'd prefer Fields and 2nd round picks.

If Denver is willing to take Favors, Expiring, and picks then Gallo, Fields, Expirings and picks should be comparable. The issue is how many picks they expect in return.

once again, the Knicks can't match the Nets offer, nor should they even try to... the ball is completely in Melo's court, if he's not going to sign an extension w/NJ then DEN has no leverage here to demand we match NJ's offer to get Melo... if Melo agrees to a NJ trade, then so be it... we move on & consider other options... there's no way we can match that offer of Favors, Harris & 2 future #1's unless we gut our roster, which is something DW has pretty much already ruled out... i fail to see why people are so paranoid that it's gonna happen.

Exactly.

Even if we offer Fields, Gallo, Expirings and 2nd rounders we can't beat New Jersey's offer.

If Melo is willing to extend with NJ we don't have a chance.

If Melo is only willing to extend with US, we do NOT HAVE to give them Fields.

This is not that hard to understand dude....

OR

If Melo is willing to extend with NJ or NY we should give them fields.

Why do you assume he is leaning one way or another.

knicks1248 wrote:melo is not going to play for no NJ, he is not about to start all over for the sake of playing in NY, when he can force a trade to the knicks, t (the real nY team) or wait to sign with a contender, and play with his good frnd

Lebron is not going to play for the Heat. The Heat is Wade's team. Wade would have more rings then him.

Rinse and repeat.

AnubisADL wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

TMS wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

TMS wrote:

Donnie Walsh has said he will not gut the team to acquire a second max-salary player, and the Knicks are confident they can sign Anthony as an unrestricted free agent next summer if they do not acquire him in a trade. That being said, they'd prefer to trade for Anthony now and lock him up through 2014-15, which removes the uncertainty of not knowing what latitude they'll have in the free-agent market under the rules of the next collective bargaining agreement.

if we can get Melo for Wilson, Gallo & AR or a future 1st, then i think NY makes out well... we will be able to use both our MLE & LLE this summer in that case, & hold onto Landry Fields in the process... personally i'd rather include a future 1st than AR in that scenario, because if we're dealing Gallo & Wilson, i think it opens up a nice role for AR in this offense & i think he'll be able to produce w/regular burn & the confidence of knowing he'll be in the rotation on a regular basis.

I doubt Denver wants AR anyway. They'd rather have the pick.

I dont think Denver is interested in paying Chandler this summer either so I think they'd prefer Fields and 2nd round picks.

If Denver is willing to take Favors, Expiring, and picks then Gallo, Fields, Expirings and picks should be comparable. The issue is how many picks they expect in return.

once again, the Knicks can't match the Nets offer, nor should they even try to... the ball is completely in Melo's court, if he's not going to sign an extension w/NJ then DEN has no leverage here to demand we match NJ's offer to get Melo... if Melo agrees to a NJ trade, then so be it... we move on & consider other options... there's no way we can match that offer of Favors, Harris & 2 future #1's unless we gut our roster, which is something DW has pretty much already ruled out... i fail to see why people are so paranoid that it's gonna happen.

Exactly.

Even if we offer Fields, Gallo, Expirings and 2nd rounders we can't beat New Jersey's offer.

If Melo is willing to extend with NJ we don't have a chance.

If Melo is only willing to extend with US, we do NOT HAVE to give them Fields.

This is not that hard to understand dude....

OR

If Melo is willing to extend with NJ or NY we should give them fields.

Why do you assume he is leaning one way or another.

The only thing I'm assuming is that if he is willing to extend with NJ then it doesn't matter if Melo is willing to extend with NY because Denver would rather have

Favors + expirings + 1st round picks

then

Fields + Gallo + expirings + 2nd round picks.

Isn't that a reasonable assumption?

Also..your response in that Blazers thread..

MLE signing
Amare
Melo
Roy
Felton

$18 M (Amare) + around the same for Melo 15-20 let's say 17M for Melo + 7.5 M for Felton + $15 M for Roy =

57.5 M for 4 starters. That doesn't even work under the current cap man. Please please please please do some research and THINK before you post this stuff man.

C'mon son...

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:The only thing I'm assuming is that if he is willing to extend with NJ then it doesn't matter if Melo is willing to extend with NY because Denver would rather have

Favors + expirings + 1st round picks

then

Fields + Gallo + expirings + 2nd round picks.

Isn't that a reasonable assumption?

Also..your response in that Blazers thread..

MLE signing
Amare
Melo
Roy
Felton

$18 M (Amare) + around the same for Melo 15-20 let's say 17M for Melo + 7.5 M for Felton + $15 M for Roy =

57.5 M for 4 starters. That doesn't even work under the current cap man. Please please please please do some research and THINK before you post this stuff man.

C'mon son...

Maybe I wasnt clear before and that is my fault.

Current reported offer between Nets and Denver is:

Favors, Troy Murphy, and first rounders

Im saying the Knicks could offer:

Gallo, Fields, Curry, 2011 First Rounder and 2013 First Rounder (AR trade for 2012 pick allows us to trade 2011 and 2013 pick)

- Now that would be dependent on trading AR for an unprotected 2012 pick.

I think before I post. I just assume you know more then you actually do.

AnubisADL wrote:

TMS wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

TMS wrote:

Donnie Walsh has said he will not gut the team to acquire a second max-salary player, and the Knicks are confident they can sign Anthony as an unrestricted free agent next summer if they do not acquire him in a trade. That being said, they'd prefer to trade for Anthony now and lock him up through 2014-15, which removes the uncertainty of not knowing what latitude they'll have in the free-agent market under the rules of the next collective bargaining agreement.

if we can get Melo for Wilson, Gallo & AR or a future 1st, then i think NY makes out well... we will be able to use both our MLE & LLE this summer in that case, & hold onto Landry Fields in the process... personally i'd rather include a future 1st than AR in that scenario, because if we're dealing Gallo & Wilson, i think it opens up a nice role for AR in this offense & i think he'll be able to produce w/regular burn & the confidence of knowing he'll be in the rotation on a regular basis.

I doubt Denver wants AR anyway. They'd rather have the pick.

I dont think Denver is interested in paying Chandler this summer either so I think they'd prefer Fields and 2nd round picks.

If Denver is willing to take Favors, Expiring, and picks then Gallo, Fields, Expirings and picks should be comparable. The issue is how many picks they expect in return.

once again, the Knicks can't match the Nets offer, nor should they even try to... the ball is completely in Melo's court, if he's not going to sign an extension w/NJ then DEN has no leverage here to demand we match NJ's offer to get Melo... if Melo agrees to a NJ trade, then so be it... we move on & consider other options... there's no way we can match that offer of Favors, Harris & 2 future #1's unless we gut our roster, which is something DW has pretty much already ruled out... i fail to see why people are so paranoid that it's gonna happen.

The reported offer is Favor's, Troy Murphy, and picks.

Harris is no longer in the trade my friend. I assume that is why King went out and got more picks.

it could very well be that Melo demanded that Harris not be traded before he were to accept signing an extension w/the Nets too, who knows? all i know is that the Knicks won't be able to match NJ's offer without giving up too much, & DW has already said he's not going to do that... i think DW has taken Fields off the table & will only offer as much as Gallo, Wilson & either AR or a future #1... that's just my best guess.

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:The only thing I'm assuming is that if he is willing to extend with NJ then it doesn't matter if Melo is willing to extend with NY because Denver would rather have

Favors + expirings + 1st round picks

then

Fields + Gallo + expirings + 2nd round picks.

Isn't that a reasonable assumption?

Also..your response in that Blazers thread..

MLE signing
Amare
Melo
Roy
Felton

$18 M (Amare) + around the same for Melo 15-20 let's say 17M for Melo + 7.5 M for Felton + $15 M for Roy =

57.5 M for 4 starters. That doesn't even work under the current cap man. Please please please please do some research and THINK before you post this stuff man.

C'mon son...

Maybe I wasnt clear before and that is my fault.

Current reported offer between Nets and Denver is:

Favors, Troy Murphy, and first rounders

Im saying the Knicks could offer:

Gallo, Fields, Curry, 2011 First Rounder and 2013 First Rounder (AR trade for 2012 pick allows us to trade 2011 and 2013 pick)

- Now that would be dependent on trading AR for an unprotected 2012 pick.

I think before I post. I just assume you know more then you actually do.

The Knicks could offer their entire team and then try playing with 3 on 5 with Felton Amare and Melo against another team's 5 starters too. That doesn't mean they should. A huge reason for Boston's success was getting Rondo for peanuts through the draft. If you're trading away all of our 1st round picks during Amare's time here, we don't even get a shot at getting lucky in the 1st round.

The assumption is that if we sign Melo, we'll need to fill the other needs of a team (because you know..basketball teams do have to do things other than score) with cheaper options since the bulk of our money is going to Amare, Melo, Felton.

If you trade away Fields who does a lot of things for very little $ and first rounders who could land us cheap productive players on rookie contracts, where do you get that help from? That is why even pro Melo people have a limit as to the price they'll pay for him in a trade.And a vague response like "You can find defenders and outside shooters way easier than a true superstar" doesn't count as a response.

I mean specific players and how much they'll cost and if it work under the cap.

Again just like in the Blazers thread it doesn't really seem like you think through your posts buddy. That Blazers thread actually showed that you barely consider the cap or defense when playing GM.

By the way you still haven't responded to the Blazers post on that thread or this one. I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong. You seem to sweep it under the carpet by ignoring it or continuing futile arguments like trading for Brandon Roy making sense.

In regard to the Blazer post I made reference to it being possible to acquire Roy. Assuming the Carmelo trade I posted happens we still have Turiaf, Azuibuke, Mosgov, and Chandler available. Trading for Roy now would require a third team because Brandon Roy is a BYC. He only counts for 1/2 his salary outgoing for the Blazers so they'd only be able to take back 125% of 7 million. Knicks would have to send out the full value of his contract in a trade.

Example:

NYK gets: Roy and Luke Ridnour

POR gets: Chandler and Mosgov

MIN gets: Turiaf, Dougie, and Azuibuke

I validated the trade in the ESPN Trade Checker

Im not saying Portland trades Roy for that but it is POSSIBLE.

Before you think someone doesn't make sense I suggest you do your own research.