martin wrote:

TMS wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:What if Cahndler and Gallo both avg close to 20? that is worth one player who makes 25? that means we would need a 15 pt scorer to compensate.

this is faulty logic... that's like saying 3 10ppg scorers is equal to having 1 guy who can give u 30 every night... it doesn't work that way... stars are at a premium in the NBA... & yes, Carmelo Anthony is a star... players like him make the game much easier for other guys around them because of the attention they attract... that is the exact reason why signing Amare over David Lee was a huge upgrade despite the stat sheet analysis.

I am trying to recall what guys on the Denver team are remarkably better because of Anthony, and I can't.

Per the article that GodSaveTheKnicks posted earlier, stats kinda show that the Denver team was better when Melo was NOT on the court during big stretches.

There is arguing Carmelo is a highly skilled player and he rightly receives a great deal of credit for his versatility. However, for all of the gifts he has received he is dangerously close to being a volume shooter. To his credit, he is able to score despite all the attention that is heaped on him by defenses, but there is a flip side of that coin. Carmelo has been largely unsuccessful throughout his career in consistently creating offense for his teammates. Even though he is an above average passer for a small forward he has never posted an assist rate over 12.1. Conversely, a player Melo has been compared to in the past, Paul Pierce, has never posted an assist rate below 13.6, which he posted his rookie season. Somehow Carmelo ranked tied for forty-forth in the NBA amongst small forwards in assist rate safely behind such offensive brutes as Dorrell Wright, Ime Udoka, Trenton Hassel and Luc Richard Mbah a Moute.

In looking at on and off court stats we can see Carmelo was good, but not great, even by his standards. The Nuggets did better with him off the floor last season than they did in 2008-09 as they actually out efficiencied their opponents by 2.2 points per 100 possessions with Melo out of the game and their efficiency advantage with him on the floor decreased from 7.3 points per 100 possessions in 2008-09 to 5.7 points per 100 possessions last campaign.

the team Melo is on was built around him as the centerpiece... he is their featured scorer... they have no player like Amare on their team, not even close... sorry but Nene or KMart don't cut the mustard... put Melo on a team w/Amare & you have an unstoppable pair... this talk around here minimalizing Melo is reaching ridiculous heights... so when he's a FA next summer you won't want to target him because he doesn't make his teammates better? people won't want to invest the dollars on him because they think he's "not a make or break" player? please... we haven't had a scorer like that since Bernard King... if Ewing had Melo in his prime we would have won multiple championships... believe it.

TMS wrote:

martin wrote:

TMS wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:What if Cahndler and Gallo both avg close to 20? that is worth one player who makes 25? that means we would need a 15 pt scorer to compensate.

this is faulty logic... that's like saying 3 10ppg scorers is equal to having 1 guy who can give u 30 every night... it doesn't work that way... stars are at a premium in the NBA... & yes, Carmelo Anthony is a star... players like him make the game much easier for other guys around them because of the attention they attract... that is the exact reason why signing Amare over David Lee was a huge upgrade despite the stat sheet analysis.

I am trying to recall what guys on the Denver team are remarkably better because of Anthony, and I can't.

Per the article that GodSaveTheKnicks posted earlier, stats kinda show that the Denver team was better when Melo was NOT on the court during big stretches.

There is arguing Carmelo is a highly skilled player and he rightly receives a great deal of credit for his versatility. However, for all of the gifts he has received he is dangerously close to being a volume shooter. To his credit, he is able to score despite all the attention that is heaped on him by defenses, but there is a flip side of that coin. Carmelo has been largely unsuccessful throughout his career in consistently creating offense for his teammates. Even though he is an above average passer for a small forward he has never posted an assist rate over 12.1. Conversely, a player Melo has been compared to in the past, Paul Pierce, has never posted an assist rate below 13.6, which he posted his rookie season. Somehow Carmelo ranked tied for forty-forth in the NBA amongst small forwards in assist rate safely behind such offensive brutes as Dorrell Wright, Ime Udoka, Trenton Hassel and Luc Richard Mbah a Moute.

In looking at on and off court stats we can see Carmelo was good, but not great, even by his standards. The Nuggets did better with him off the floor last season than they did in 2008-09 as they actually out efficiencied their opponents by 2.2 points per 100 possessions with Melo out of the game and their efficiency advantage with him on the floor decreased from 7.3 points per 100 possessions in 2008-09 to 5.7 points per 100 possessions last campaign.

the team Melo is on was built around him as the centerpiece... he is their featured scorer... they have no player like Amare on their team, not even close... sorry but Nene or KMart don't cut the mustard... put Melo on a team w/Amare & you have an unstoppable pair... this talk around here minimalizing Melo is reaching ridiculous heights... so when he's a FA next summer you won't want to target him because he doesn't make his teammates better? people won't want to invest the dollars on him because they think he's "not a make or break" player? please... we haven't had a scorer like that since Bernard King... if Ewing had Melo in his prime we would have won multiple championships... believe it.

I would target Melo in the offseason if he is a FA, that's not even a question or in doubt. I am not sure why you would take that extra step.

To me, at this point in his career, Melo aint on the same level as Wade, LeBron (obviously) and giving up AR, Gallo is too much, especially when you consider what we would be left with to build upon over the next years after that. I am not sure Melo has made his teammate remarkably better (you avoided any response in that area BTW) but that is NOT to say that he isn't a very good, elite offensive player. Nor did I say he and Amare wouldn't pair up to be a great tandem.

Amare, Melo and a bare shelf dont get past Miami, may not get past Orlando. Amare, Melo, Gallo, AR, Felton, Moz, Fields, Turiaf can go toe-to-toe with anyone, and that's the boat I am in right now.

martin wrote:

TMS wrote:

martin wrote:

TMS wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:What if Cahndler and Gallo both avg close to 20? that is worth one player who makes 25? that means we would need a 15 pt scorer to compensate.

this is faulty logic... that's like saying 3 10ppg scorers is equal to having 1 guy who can give u 30 every night... it doesn't work that way... stars are at a premium in the NBA... & yes, Carmelo Anthony is a star... players like him make the game much easier for other guys around them because of the attention they attract... that is the exact reason why signing Amare over David Lee was a huge upgrade despite the stat sheet analysis.

I am trying to recall what guys on the Denver team are remarkably better because of Anthony, and I can't.

Per the article that GodSaveTheKnicks posted earlier, stats kinda show that the Denver team was better when Melo was NOT on the court during big stretches.

There is arguing Carmelo is a highly skilled player and he rightly receives a great deal of credit for his versatility. However, for all of the gifts he has received he is dangerously close to being a volume shooter. To his credit, he is able to score despite all the attention that is heaped on him by defenses, but there is a flip side of that coin. Carmelo has been largely unsuccessful throughout his career in consistently creating offense for his teammates. Even though he is an above average passer for a small forward he has never posted an assist rate over 12.1. Conversely, a player Melo has been compared to in the past, Paul Pierce, has never posted an assist rate below 13.6, which he posted his rookie season. Somehow Carmelo ranked tied for forty-forth in the NBA amongst small forwards in assist rate safely behind such offensive brutes as Dorrell Wright, Ime Udoka, Trenton Hassel and Luc Richard Mbah a Moute.

In looking at on and off court stats we can see Carmelo was good, but not great, even by his standards. The Nuggets did better with him off the floor last season than they did in 2008-09 as they actually out efficiencied their opponents by 2.2 points per 100 possessions with Melo out of the game and their efficiency advantage with him on the floor decreased from 7.3 points per 100 possessions in 2008-09 to 5.7 points per 100 possessions last campaign.

the team Melo is on was built around him as the centerpiece... he is their featured scorer... they have no player like Amare on their team, not even close... sorry but Nene or KMart don't cut the mustard... put Melo on a team w/Amare & you have an unstoppable pair... this talk around here minimalizing Melo is reaching ridiculous heights... so when he's a FA next summer you won't want to target him because he doesn't make his teammates better? people won't want to invest the dollars on him because they think he's "not a make or break" player? please... we haven't had a scorer like that since Bernard King... if Ewing had Melo in his prime we would have won multiple championships... believe it.

I would target Melo in the offseason if he is a FA, that's not even a question or in doubt. I am not sure why you would take that extra step.

To me, at this point in his career, Melo aint on the same level as Wade, LeBron (obviously) and giving up AR, Gallo is too much, especially when you consider what we would be left with to build upon over the next years after that. I am not sure Melo has made his teammate remarkably better (you avoided any response in that area BTW) but that is NOT to say that he isn't a very good, elite offensive player. Nor did I say he and Amare wouldn't pair up to be a great tandem.

Amare, Melo and a bare shelf dont get past Miami, may not get past Orlando. Amare, Melo, Gallo, AR, Felton, Moz, Fields, Turiaf can go toe-to-toe with anyone, and that's the boat I am in right now.

Melo and Amare are unstoppable? So... they would be the best team in the NBA and favorites to win a title? I dont think so... We might not even beat the Hawks or Bulls, much less Bos/Mia/Orl and thats just our own conference.

TMS wrote:

martin wrote:

TMS wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:What if Cahndler and Gallo both avg close to 20? that is worth one player who makes 25? that means we would need a 15 pt scorer to compensate.

this is faulty logic... that's like saying 3 10ppg scorers is equal to having 1 guy who can give u 30 every night... it doesn't work that way... stars are at a premium in the NBA... & yes, Carmelo Anthony is a star... players like him make the game much easier for other guys around them because of the attention they attract... that is the exact reason why signing Amare over David Lee was a huge upgrade despite the stat sheet analysis.

I am trying to recall what guys on the Denver team are remarkably better because of Anthony, and I can't.

Per the article that GodSaveTheKnicks posted earlier, stats kinda show that the Denver team was better when Melo was NOT on the court during big stretches.

There is arguing Carmelo is a highly skilled player and he rightly receives a great deal of credit for his versatility. However, for all of the gifts he has received he is dangerously close to being a volume shooter. To his credit, he is able to score despite all the attention that is heaped on him by defenses, but there is a flip side of that coin. Carmelo has been largely unsuccessful throughout his career in consistently creating offense for his teammates. Even though he is an above average passer for a small forward he has never posted an assist rate over 12.1. Conversely, a player Melo has been compared to in the past, Paul Pierce, has never posted an assist rate below 13.6, which he posted his rookie season. Somehow Carmelo ranked tied for forty-forth in the NBA amongst small forwards in assist rate safely behind such offensive brutes as Dorrell Wright, Ime Udoka, Trenton Hassel and Luc Richard Mbah a Moute.

In looking at on and off court stats we can see Carmelo was good, but not great, even by his standards. The Nuggets did better with him off the floor last season than they did in 2008-09 as they actually out efficiencied their opponents by 2.2 points per 100 possessions with Melo out of the game and their efficiency advantage with him on the floor decreased from 7.3 points per 100 possessions in 2008-09 to 5.7 points per 100 possessions last campaign.

the team Melo is on was built around him as the centerpiece... he is their featured scorer... they have no player like Amare on their team, not even close... sorry but Nene or KMart don't cut the mustard... put Melo on a team w/Amare & you have an unstoppable pair... this talk around here minimalizing Melo is reaching ridiculous heights... so when he's a FA next summer you won't want to target him because he doesn't make his teammates better? people won't want to invest the dollars on him because they think he's "not a make or break" player? please... we haven't had a scorer like that since Bernard King... if Ewing had Melo in his prime we would have won multiple championships... believe it.

This guy might have something to say about that...

fishmike wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:I agree, i would deal Chandler, Curry, and Gallo or Randolph (preferably not Gallo) but definitely not both. We need to retain at least one of our bright young stars. My preference is to have a team that includes melo, stoudemire, gallo, and felton, but i would much rather have tony parker and both gallo and randolph alongside stoudemire than have only stoudemire and melo and no young talent left. In other words, if it takes both guys than let's wait and just get Parker as a FA, but if it takes only one, i think Melo is too good to pass up.

I think I used to be OK with a similar deal of Chandler, Curry and one of Gallo/Randolph, but not any more. I think Miami's weakness is going big, and so it's Chicago's and Orlando's and those are the teams that the Knicks have to get through.

I may give you Chandler Curry and 2014, but I would think long and hard about what Melo wants and could wait until next summer in the hopes that he is a UFA; and if not, the Knicks keep their flexibility and I would turn to CP3/Williams and internal growth.

its a tough one. If you said we missed out on Lebron but the core of the team was Felton, Gallo, Amare, Melo I think most would be pretty happy. You have a good PG, a couple of all star forwards and you keep your homegrown guy in Gallo.

The thing that woul keep me from pulling the trigger is I like these players as a group very much. Since Ewing left we have been a shimpy team playing guys like Harrington, Kurt Thomas, Lee, Mo Taylor, Spoon, Nazr, Malik Rose, Zach, Eddy, etc at PF and C. In general guys who are small or not athletic.

Now we are looking at a froncourt of Gallo, AR, Amare and Mosgov. 4 guys who are BIG BIG BIG and ultra athletic. Nobody knows how good AR/GAllo/Mosgov will be. Hey, remember when the Bulls drafted Curry/Chandler? Sure.. it didnt work out, but Krause understood that when you win the size battle EVERY night you on the right path.

Right now the Knicks have so much flexibility next offseason. That is why I would NOT do this trade now. If we are capped out then yes, I think you have to take a chance at getting that 2nd all star doing what you can to put the other pieces in place. We arent. We can buy a max player next summer. We can trade for one and not take back salary giving the other team a very valuable trade exception. We can take a contract another team doesnt want if they give us a pick back (Like w/ Heinrich). Options options options. Then god forbid Gallo/AR do become all stars.

We can afford to wait. Melo isnt a special player. He's a really good player. He's Vince Carter

I'm becoming more and more convinced we can afford to wait. This piece examines the last few trades of awesome scoring machines like Melo:

http://aloneinthegreenroom.wordpress.com/2010/09/22/a-look-at-recent-precedents-for-a-carmelo-anthony-trade/

Carmelo Anthony, 2010
Age: 26
Previous Season: 28.2 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 3.2 apg, 22.2 PER, .145 WS/48
Trade: ?

Winner: Based on these other deals, it’s a mixed bag, but it certainly doesn’t seem like losing Melo will be a nightmare. In 6 of the past 7 years, the Nuggets have lost in the first round of the playoffs, and as previously stated, that’s pretty much the worst situation an NBA franchise can be in, from a competitive standpoint. Not good enough to contend for a title, not bad enough to get good draft picks, and with too much money tied up in a quality roster to afford a premium free agent. Of the past 7 NBA champions, only the Spurs (in ’05 and ’07) accomplished the feat after 5 straight years of making the playoffs. The rebuilding processes started by trading Grant Hill and Tracy McGrady lifted the Pistons and Magic, respectively, to finals berths within a matter of seasons.

Another issue is that Anthony will command max money when he signs a new deal, but doesn’t produce wins on the same level as similarly paid players. Based on last year’s Win Shares numbers, actually, Anthony was only the 3rd-most productive Nugget, outpaced by Nene and Chauncey Billups, and on a per-minute basis by those two and Chris Andersen. We can expect a trade package for Anthony to include a good young player or two, expiring contracts, and draft picks, suggesting the Nuggets will most likely get considerably worse before they get better. But they have roughly all of this season’s cap tied up just in paying Anthony, Billups, Nene, and Kenyon Martin–they’re not catching up to the Lakers any time soon. Shedding Anthony’s contract now, and with Martin’s coming off the books next summer, they’ll be in enviable position next year with cap space, an efficient veteran nucleus (Billups, Nene), and building blocks for the future (Ty Lawson, young talent/draft picks from the Melo deal). Trading the face of their franchise certainly isn’t a risk-free proposition, but based on past history, the greatest risk might lie in holding on to him for too long.

The bits that jumped out at me:

1. "In 6 of the past 7 years, the Nuggets have lost in the first round of the playoffs, and as previously stated, that’s pretty much the worst situation an NBA franchise can be in, from a competitive standpoint.Not good enough to contend for a title, not bad enough to get good draft picks, and with too much money tied up in a quality roster to afford a premium free agent."

Anyone in favor of doing whatever it takes to get Melo..please contruct a championship roster once u tie up 30-35M between him and Amare. Hope you can do better than Nene, Billups, KMart, Birdman, etc.

2. "Another issue is that Anthony will command max money when he signs a new deal, but doesn’t produce wins on the same level as similarly paid players. Based on last year’s Win Shares numbers, actually, Anthony was only the 3rd-most productive Nugget, outpaced by Nene and Chauncey Billups, and on a per-minute basis by those two and Chris Andersen."

Everyone who wants to pay the price for Melo like he's Lebron/Wade/Kobe. Could the above have been stated about those guys?

Melo is nasty. I'm not saying he's not one of the best pure scorers I've seen in recent memory. I'm not so sure at this point that Elite Scorer = Elite Player. Other than scoring I'm having a tough time figuring out one other thing that Melo is really really good at. Can anyone think of one thing Melo does really really well other than score?

It seems like the best player on a championship squad is an all around monster..not just a scorer.

Jordan - anything he couldn't do?
Pippen - elite wing defender, fantastic all around player
Tim Duncan - monster down low, great on defense, high basketball IQ, great at passing out of double teams
Kobe/Pau - not just scorers. also excellent passers/defenders.
Hakeem - deadly scorer but also great at finding cutters while posting, solid defender.

Look at this list: http://www.nba.com/history/finals/champions.html

How many of these teams had their best player with a rep and a game like Melos? Find me one.

Signing Melo as a FA is defensible as you may be able to still keep some all around players to make up for his deficiencies.

Giving up whatever it takes to get him.I don't see how it's such a no brainer.

Vmart wrote:

Moonangie wrote:+1 to that. Melo would be great at the right price (i.e., CHandler, Curry, $3mil and the 2014 1st rounder...nothing more) OR preferably signed next summer. But the crazy talk here (i.e., Anubis, iSergio) about gutting our core to get him is Isaiah-worthy starphucking. And it will yield us a bunch of early exits from the playoffs.

If you have Amare and Melo I highly doubt early exits will be the norm. Besides I think there will be a three way deal that brings Melo to NY. Look for Knicks, Houston and Denver to get something done. Houston needs a backup C and everyone knows Curry wants out and is an expiring (hence the physical). He is ideal for Houston as Yoa's backup or insurance if he can't make it through the season. Look for the Knicks to send Gallanari or Chandler and future consideration to the Rockets also. Who in turn will send the Knicks number one 2012(T-Mac deal) and Kevin Martin to Denver. Knicks will send second round picks to Denver as well. That is my crystal ball at work.

Houston does not want Curry. They are targeting Dampier.

TMS wrote:Melo is not an assist guy i didn't think i needed to address that point it's pretty obvious... he makes his teammates better by attracting double teams on every possession... do you not understand this concept? it's pretty basic... pointing out to me that he hasn't averaged better assist rates than Ime Udoka is worthless... how many F's in the game have averaged more ppg than Melo has over his career? feel free to address that martin.

you guys speak as if Melo is already signed sealed & delivered to the Knicks next summer if we wait it out... yeah, that worked out really well w/Lebron James & Chris Bosh... sorry but i'm finished pinning all my hopes on signing FA's... if we can acquire guys in trades that WON'T gut the team, then i'm all for it as i've maintained all along... if we can't get Melo by any other means other than giving up EVERY single young player we have, then i'm for being patient... i have no problem with watching Gallo & AR develop, but if we can get Melo by trading 1 of them along w/some other pieces, then i think it's moronic to wait to see what happens in free agency.

Awesome, your insights are breathtaking.

What's the use of attracting a double team if all you do is shoot the ball instead instead of getting easy baskets for your teammates? One would think that attracting double teams would equate to a better than average assist ratio than say Udoka. Or that when said player of double team attraction is on the court his team is better off.

The double team happens, what happens next that leads to Melo making his teammates better, cause it seems to me he isn't passing the ball very well.

My basic question is still there: I am trying to identify player or players on Melo's team that seem to be better when he is on the court. It's not a hard or trick question and there is a lot of leeway with it. Tackle that instead of bringing up useless questions like "Who else averaged more scoring that Melo" which really has nothing to do with my point.

TMS wrote:martin, your condescension towards anyone that disagrees with your point of view is getting old... i guess your moderator status gives u the right to talk down to people... i've tried engaging you in debate & have brought up points for consideration... you have deflected everything i've said & harping on that singular nonsensical point that Melo isn't an assist guy, something which is pretty obvious... when guys double down on Melo it leaves them open to go for rebounds & secondary scoring opportunities... it isn't Melo's job to get them the ball, it's Chauncey Billups' job to do that... Melo's job is to score the damn basketball, & he does that better than just about every single player in the NBA, which you obviously have no counter for so you want to keep jabbing with this ridiculous notion that Melo needs to average more assists to make him worthy of consideration to add to this franchise... i can't wait til next summer when you're on the "get Melo to NY" bandwagon.

You need to read posts more carefully. In this very thread I have stated: "I would target Melo in the offseason if he is a FA"

In fact you responded to my post where I say that. I am already on that bandwagon.

The answer to your other question is Durant.