stanleybostitch wrote:

TMS wrote:if we don't get Lebron, Bosh, Wade or Amare this summer, how has DW improved the foundations of this franchise for the long term exactly? because he drafted Gallo & TD? are those guys going to be the cornerstones of our franchise for the coming decade? not owning our draft picks for the next 2 drafts doesn't put this franchise in a good position at all if we miss out on the bigname FA's this summer.

You're kidding, right? DW has finally brought full cap flexibility to a franchise that hasn't seen that promised land for a decade+. Cap flexibility is one of the key foundations to building a successful - long-term successful - franchise. The others being talent, coaching, and some luck. We can argue about the current (lack of) talent, though Gallo and TD were great picks, Bill Walker a potential steal. And on the coaching front, you're either on the D'antoni boat or not, though my guess is the players that play the game like the guy. And this counts for a lot.

So if we don't get a late draft pick for the next 2 years the franchise is done uh....

suppose we did have the picks and pick 2 crappy ass players(think john wallace type) how would you feel( with no cap space)

knicks1248 wrote:

stanleybostitch wrote:

TMS wrote:if we don't get Lebron, Bosh, Wade or Amare this summer, how has DW improved the foundations of this franchise for the long term exactly? because he drafted Gallo & TD? are those guys going to be the cornerstones of our franchise for the coming decade? not owning our draft picks for the next 2 drafts doesn't put this franchise in a good position at all if we miss out on the bigname FA's this summer.

You're kidding, right? DW has finally brought full cap flexibility to a franchise that hasn't seen that promised land for a decade+. Cap flexibility is one of the key foundations to building a successful - long-term successful - franchise. The others being talent, coaching, and some luck. We can argue about the current (lack of) talent, though Gallo and TD were great picks, Bill Walker a potential steal. And on the coaching front, you're either on the D'antoni boat or not, though my guess is the players that play the game like the guy. And this counts for a lot.

So if we don't get a late draft pick for the next 2 years the franchise is done uh....

suppose we did have the picks and pick 2 crappy ass players(think john wallace type) how would you feel( with no cap space)

knicks1248 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

stanleybostitch wrote:

TMS wrote:if we don't get Lebron, Bosh, Wade or Amare this summer, how has DW improved the foundations of this franchise for the long term exactly? because he drafted Gallo & TD? are those guys going to be the cornerstones of our franchise for the coming decade? not owning our draft picks for the next 2 drafts doesn't put this franchise in a good position at all if we miss out on the bigname FA's this summer.

You're kidding, right? DW has finally brought full cap flexibility to a franchise that hasn't seen that promised land for a decade+. Cap flexibility is one of the key foundations to building a successful - long-term successful - franchise. The others being talent, coaching, and some luck. We can argue about the current (lack of) talent, though Gallo and TD were great picks, Bill Walker a potential steal. And on the coaching front, you're either on the D'antoni boat or not, though my guess is the players that play the game like the guy. And this counts for a lot.

So if we don't get a late draft pick for the next 2 years the franchise is done uh....

suppose we did have the picks and pick 2 crappy ass players(think john wallace type) how would you feel( with no cap space)

The Knicks already had cap space. The lottery pick and future draft picks were traded to get additional space. The Knicks now have enough space to sign two guys to max deals. That could turn out to be huge. However, in the process the Knicks traded away the sign and trade assets that are so valuable when you have cap space. They also mortgaged the future gambling that one or more of the big names will sign in NY. If Walsh comes away with Johnson and Boozer I don't consider that worth what he gave up. If it is Johnson/Amare I am on the fence. Making that trade was a huge risk. I hope it works out.

So it would be better to gamble in a draft, as oppose to gambling in free agency..lets see, i'm not sure how playing the lottery, is a better investment then playing the stock market.

None of these big name FA'S are making money a 1st priority, lets just get that straight, none of these mid to late 20's players are looking to be part of a rebuilding project, just to play in high pressure NY, our track record is horrible.

The knicks biggest selling point is there abilty to sign another super star. If I'm a max Player, why on earth would I sign on with a team that is going to be equally as good (or bad) as the team that can pay me more(your current one).

In order for those picks to really matter we would have to be complete garbage..Is that a better option. I mean think about it......We got two decent players (nate and lee) in the last 5 years, and what has that gotten us. Gallo, blake, Oden, these top pick guy's didn't even play there rookie season..anything can happen..As good as D Rose is, he's not propel chicago to any new heights, just like Labron hasn't won any rings in the seven years he played for cleve.

I can't ever remeber NY having this kinda of Money to spend and build a lagit contender, nor have i seen a FA market this DEEP.

TMS wrote:

stanleybostitch wrote:

TMS wrote:if we don't get Lebron, Bosh, Wade or Amare this summer, how has DW improved the foundations of this franchise for the long term exactly? because he drafted Gallo & TD? are those guys going to be the cornerstones of our franchise for the coming decade? not owning our draft picks for the next 2 drafts doesn't put this franchise in a good position at all if we miss out on the bigname FA's this summer.

You're kidding, right? DW has finally brought full cap flexibility to a franchise that hasn't seen that promised land for a decade+. Cap flexibility is one of the key foundations to building a successful - long-term successful - franchise. The others being talent, coaching, and some luck. We can argue about the current (lack of) talent, though Gallo and TD were great picks, Bill Walker a potential steal. And on the coaching front, you're either on the D'antoni boat or not, though my guess is the players that play the game like the guy. And this counts for a lot.

no, i'm not kidding... DW has bought cap flexibility in the summer of 2010 & it came at a high price... he could have done absolutely nothing & we still would have had the same flexibility in 2011 & beyond, so really the moves he's made since he's been here aside from drafting Gallo & TD, have all been made with the summer of 2010 in mind... if he strikes out on the bigname FA's this summer then our franchise will be in WORSE shape than we would have been in had he done nothing at all.

I don't agree you with you, just because if we had taken the plan you're mentioning, everyone would be criticizing for not freeing up the cap for "the Lebron year". I don't agree with you because with a team that's going nowhere, it's a chance you have to take. I don't always think that just because plan A doesn't work out that plan A wasn't worthwhile and that it hasn't opened up other opportunities. But, maybe the difference is that I'm not sure we gave up that high a price. So far, I simply think we gave up marginal assets for a high reward plan (with the 2011 pick TBD in that statement). I think in this league, it's better to be utterly horrible than marginal. We'll see.

stanleybostitch wrote:

TMS wrote:

stanleybostitch wrote:

TMS wrote:if we don't get Lebron, Bosh, Wade or Amare this summer, how has DW improved the foundations of this franchise for the long term exactly? because he drafted Gallo & TD? are those guys going to be the cornerstones of our franchise for the coming decade? not owning our draft picks for the next 2 drafts doesn't put this franchise in a good position at all if we miss out on the bigname FA's this summer.

You're kidding, right? DW has finally brought full cap flexibility to a franchise that hasn't seen that promised land for a decade+. Cap flexibility is one of the key foundations to building a successful - long-term successful - franchise. The others being talent, coaching, and some luck. We can argue about the current (lack of) talent, though Gallo and TD were great picks, Bill Walker a potential steal. And on the coaching front, you're either on the D'antoni boat or not, though my guess is the players that play the game like the guy. And this counts for a lot.

no, i'm not kidding... DW has bought cap flexibility in the summer of 2010 & it came at a high price... he could have done absolutely nothing & we still would have had the same flexibility in 2011 & beyond, so really the moves he's made since he's been here aside from drafting Gallo & TD, have all been made with the summer of 2010 in mind... if he strikes out on the bigname FA's this summer then our franchise will be in WORSE shape than we would have been in had he done nothing at all.

DW showed us he has a pair by freeing up the extra cap room a summer early (let's also not forget the zach and craw trades), as he made a calculated decision that luring a marquee talent would be easier with double-max room. I agree with this approach - lebron and wade and bosh are free agents in 2010, and you do what you have to in order to improve your odds of grabbing two of the three. Could he have waited and saved Hill and maybe had better draft positioning in 11 and 12? Sure, but then we'd all be calling him a ***** and deservedly so. If you want to win in this league you have to be fearless, and DW has shown a single-minded focus on getting us to 2010 and then being fearless in optimizing our chances for success. I'm all for that - and even if it doesn't work, I've got the man's back because he made the right decision.

whether he made the right decision or not has yet to be determined... if he strikes out on the bigname FA's this summer then the past 2 years of losing & 3 potential lottery picks have all been wasted for nothing... if he strikes gold & lands a big fish, then he looks like a genius... 3 weeks & we see how it turns out either way.

Christopher Moltisanti: We shoulda stopped at Roy Rogers.
Paulie 'Walnuts' Gualtieri: Yeah and I shoulda ****ed Dale Evans but I didn't.

Stop thinking in the past and get ready for the future. Some positivity wouldn't hurt, you know.

Childs2Dudley wrote:Should've, huh? Reminds me of a good Sopranos quote from a classic episode.

Christopher Moltisanti: We shoulda stopped at Roy Rogers.
Paulie 'Walnuts' Gualtieri: Yeah and I shoulda ****ed Dale Evans but I didn't.

Stop thinking in the past and get ready for the future. Some positivity wouldn't hurt, you know.

how am i thinking in the past? every comment i've made has been pointed towards the future... July 1st will determine how this all plays out... seems like some of you have already made up your minds that DW has made the right moves before you even know the outcome.

Solace wrote:

TMS wrote:

Solace wrote:

TMS wrote:

stanleybostitch wrote:

TMS wrote:if we don't get Lebron, Bosh, Wade or Amare this summer, how has DW improved the foundations of this franchise for the long term exactly? because he drafted Gallo & TD? are those guys going to be the cornerstones of our franchise for the coming decade? not owning our draft picks for the next 2 drafts doesn't put this franchise in a good position at all if we miss out on the bigname FA's this summer.

You're kidding, right? DW has finally brought full cap flexibility to a franchise that hasn't seen that promised land for a decade+. Cap flexibility is one of the key foundations to building a successful - long-term successful - franchise. The others being talent, coaching, and some luck. We can argue about the current (lack of) talent, though Gallo and TD were great picks, Bill Walker a otential steal. And on the coaching front, you're either on the D'antoni boat or not, though my guess is the players that play the game like the guy. And this counts for a lot.

no, i'm not kidding... DW has bought cap flexibility in the summer of 2010 & it came at a high price... he could have done absolutely nothing & we still would have had the same flexibility in 2011 & beyond, so really the moves he's made since he's been here aside from drafting Gallo & TD, have all been made with the summer of 2010 in mind... if he strikes out on the bigname FA's this summer then our franchise will be in WORSE shape than we would have been in had he done nothing at all.

I don't agree you with you, just because if we had taken the plan you're mentioning, everyone would be criticizing for not freeing up the cap for "the Lebron year". I don't agree with you because with a team that's going nowhere, it's a chance you have to take. I don't always think that just because plan A doesn't work out that plan A wasn't worthwhile and that it hasn't opened up other opportunities. But, maybe the difference is that I'm not sure we gave up that high a price. So far, I simply think we gave up marginal assets for a high reward plan (with the 2011 pick TBD in that statement). I think in this league, it's better to be utterly horrible than marginal. We'll see.

i fully expected him to make moves in the summer of 2010, but trading away future picks to free up $7M worth of cap is a highly questionable move... we had the assets & cap space to make some significant moves this summer via trade... we weren't necessarily in the position where we absolutely HAD to free up more cap space as DW took care of that in his previous deals to dump Craw & Zach, which were both good moves... i think most people have universally commended him on those previous moves... the last one where he panicked & gave up Jordan Hill & the rights to 2 future picks for a broken down T-Mac put his ass on the line in a big way... for all our sakes we better hope his gamble pays off bigtime, otherwise it will prove to be 1 of the worst trades this franchise has made in a long time, & that's saying a lot.

I hear you. Jordan Hill doesn't bother me much because I think it was a terrible pick to start with, which was the real travesty. The other picks, we'll have to wait and see what we might have missed on. The draft is definitely a crapshoot.

Maybe we just have very different concepts about how you build a team. I think it sucks that the NBA is so f'd that you have to build a team this way if you want a championship... but it's kind of a hack to slide through the rules. Because if you try to play within the normal rules you just get screwed. The NBA definitely has the worst free agency/cap system and minor league system of any major sport. Because of these two factors, you're jumping through hoops just to get a chance at getting a superstar or two. My impression is that Walsh is trying to use this hack around the mentally deranged system. If we had Jordan Hill, David Lee, Nate Robinson, Wilson Chandler, Gallinari, a few top 15 first round picks over the course of a few years and say Joe Johnson... I doubt anyone would really be satisfied with that team. But that's a distinct possibility if we don't make the deadline moves that we did make. If someone like Joe Johnson is the best we could do, for example, I'd rather just have a loser team, and keep trying via the free agency route, because sooner or later, it will succeed, even if it doesn't this summer. As long as we don't trade away anymore important picks, that is.

i wouldn't have been happy with a team of Joe Johnson & that group either... but that wouldn't have necessarily been the best we could have done... if we had Jordan Hill & ownership of both our picks in the next 2 seasons along with 2 expiring contracts, i think it gives DW some pieces to work deals with... if u count David Lee in a sign & trade type scenario, that gives u another options... it's not as cut & dry as saying if he hadn't made the trade to dump Fishlips' contract that we would have had to settle for Joe Johnson as our best player... i personally think DW would have had many different options open to him, from signing a max FA to putting together a trade package using the assets we used in the T-Mac deal to add another... he chose to put it all on the line so he could sign 2 max guys... we'll see if the plan works out.

TMS wrote:

Solace wrote:

TMS wrote:

Solace wrote:

TMS wrote:

stanleybostitch wrote:

TMS wrote:if we don't get Lebron, Bosh, Wade or Amare this summer, how has DW improved the foundations of this franchise for the long term exactly? because he drafted Gallo & TD? are those guys going to be the cornerstones of our franchise for the coming decade? not owning our draft picks for the next 2 drafts doesn't put this franchise in a good position at all if we miss out on the bigname FA's this summer.

You're kidding, right? DW has finally brought full cap flexibility to a franchise that hasn't seen that promised land for a decade+. Cap flexibility is one of the key foundations to building a successful - long-term successful - franchise. The others being talent, coaching, and some luck. We can argue about the current (lack of) talent, though Gallo and TD were great picks, Bill Walker a otential steal. And on the coaching front, you're either on the D'antoni boat or not, though my guess is the players that play the game like the guy. And this counts for a lot.

no, i'm not kidding... DW has bought cap flexibility in the summer of 2010 & it came at a high price... he could have done absolutely nothing & we still would have had the same flexibility in 2011 & beyond, so really the moves he's made since he's been here aside from drafting Gallo & TD, have all been made with the summer of 2010 in mind... if he strikes out on the bigname FA's this summer then our franchise will be in WORSE shape than we would have been in had he done nothing at all.

I don't agree you with you, just because if we had taken the plan you're mentioning, everyone would be criticizing for not freeing up the cap for "the Lebron year". I don't agree with you because with a team that's going nowhere, it's a chance you have to take. I don't always think that just because plan A doesn't work out that plan A wasn't worthwhile and that it hasn't opened up other opportunities. But, maybe the difference is that I'm not sure we gave up that high a price. So far, I simply think we gave up marginal assets for a high reward plan (with the 2011 pick TBD in that statement). I think in this league, it's better to be utterly horrible than marginal. We'll see.

i fully expected him to make moves in the summer of 2010, but trading away future picks to free up $7M worth of cap is a highly questionable move... we had the assets & cap space to make some significant moves this summer via trade... we weren't necessarily in the position where we absolutely HAD to free up more cap space as DW took care of that in his previous deals to dump Craw & Zach, which were both good moves... i think most people have universally commended him on those previous moves... the last one where he panicked & gave up Jordan Hill & the rights to 2 future picks for a broken down T-Mac put his ass on the line in a big way... for all our sakes we better hope his gamble pays off bigtime, otherwise it will prove to be 1 of the worst trades this franchise has made in a long time, & that's saying a lot.

I hear you. Jordan Hill doesn't bother me much because I think it was a terrible pick to start with, which was the real travesty. The other picks, we'll have to wait and see what we might have missed on. The draft is definitely a crapshoot.

Maybe we just have very different concepts about how you build a team. I think it sucks that the NBA is so f'd that you have to build a team this way if you want a championship... but it's kind of a hack to slide through the rules. Because if you try to play within the normal rules you just get screwed. The NBA definitely has the worst free agency/cap system and minor league system of any major sport. Because of these two factors, you're jumping through hoops just to get a chance at getting a superstar or two. My impression is that Walsh is trying to use this hack around the mentally deranged system. If we had Jordan Hill, David Lee, Nate Robinson, Wilson Chandler, Gallinari, a few top 15 first round picks over the course of a few years and say Joe Johnson... I doubt anyone would really be satisfied with that team. But that's a distinct possibility if we don't make the deadline moves that we did make. If someone like Joe Johnson is the best we could do, for example, I'd rather just have a loser team, and keep trying via the free agency route, because sooner or later, it will succeed, even if it doesn't this summer. As long as we don't trade away anymore important picks, that is.

i wouldn't have been happy with a team of Joe Johnson & that group either... but that wouldn't have necessarily been the best we could have done... if we had Jordan Hill & ownership of both our picks in the next 2 seasons along with 2 expiring contracts, i think it gives DW some pieces to work deals with... if u count David Lee in a sign & trade type scenario, that gives u another options... it's not as cut & dry as saying if he hadn't made the trade to dump Fishlips' contract that we would have had to settle for Joe Johnson as our best player... i personally think DW would have had many different options open to him, from signing a max FA to putting together a trade package using the assets we used in the T-Mac deal to add another... he chose to put it all on the line so he could sign 2 max guys... we'll see if the plan works out.

I think DW looked at the possible scenarios if he kept Hill, Jared and the picks verses The cap space and felt it made more sense to put the team in position to improve exponentially in a short period of time. No matter how you try to frame it, none of those other options had the potential to improve the team as quickly as this move. MAYBE being able to use Hill in a trade along with picks isn't the same as having the ability to sign FA's outright regardless of the other team liking what you have to offer in a sign n trade or not. See if the other team doesn't want to deal you're still stuck. Perhaps DW explored interest in such deals and didn't get good responses.

His best play may be to get Lebron to agree to come and have Lebron talk to Bosh about joining him. The money thing is a bit problematic if the agent and Bosh want the 6th year, but maybe in the end they'll realize it's better to play with Lebron and win, than to worry about that money which could probably be made up for off the court if they are champions.

It's water under the bridge. Here we are now with nothing and if lebron does not come and we only have so so players to pick from. Just hold on to the money and blow up the team and play some kids and tank the season.