TMS wrote:

s3231 wrote:

TMS wrote:u guys are avoiding the question... the question i asked is if u don't think MDA had the perfect roster to run his system in Phoenix, then give me an example of a roster that u feel is perfectly suited to run it... i can't think of one... guys that can handle the ball, pass, shoot, run... seems to me that a roster with Steve Nash, Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson, Amare Stoudamire, Quentin Richardson & Jim Jackson fits that to a tee... i don't see how u can do much better than that within any realistic scenarios.

nixluva, u like to throw these statements around implying that people have a personal agenda against MDA by only pointing out a part of the truth, but all i've seen you do whenever we have these discussions is to gloss over parts of the truth that don't suit your argument... for example, why was Jonathan Bender playing at all this season? u've said MDA only plays guys who are ready to play multiple times, but everytime the Bender example is pointed out you clam up... why don't u have a logical explanation? because there are none... just accept the fact that MDA makes headscratching decisions & that's why people have a problem with him around here.

Why should we give you a roster that is perfectly suited to run it? I mean is anyone really expecting Donnie and Mike to acquire such a roster in one off-season? I know that I'm not expecting that. What I am expecting though, is for Donnie to start building a team this summer, which means acquiring the type of players that will fit well with D'Antoni. We are at the starting point right now and it's not fair to ask for a "perfectly suited" roster because we haven't even started building a team yet and if I give you a hypothetical roster that would be great, it would be unrealistic to think we could put it together in one off-season. And frankly, I could care less about having something "perfectly suited." How do you define perfection? All I care about is putting a good enough roster that can play well enough in D'Antoni's system to win a title.

You start acquiring the type of players that fit D'Antoni's system though and then you make the necessary changes to get to the highest level possible. Lee is one such player that has shown he can play in the system. You can keep him and add someone like Joe Johnson or who knows, maybe you have a shot at signing Bosh and you combine him with someone like Joe Johnson instead. I'm not advocating either option, I'm just saying there is plenty of flexibility in terms of what we can do as a starting point. You don't have to add all of your pieces overnight.

Then after next season, with Curry coming off the books, you could potentially have room for another max slot (I'm not going to argue this again because I showed in another thread that it is possible with careful planning). Hell, in 2 seasons the Knicks could potentially have a core along the lines of Melo, Joe Johnson, David Lee, Gallo, and Douglas. You surround those 5 guys with the right pieces and I think you can contend in D'Antoni's system.

The problem is, people think the cap space is the only resource we have for improvement. It's not. Hell, did the Celtics win with just Pierce, Allen, and Garnett? No, they didn't. They used their assets wisely to bring in stars like Allen and Garnett but they also used some low first round picks to draft guys like Perkins and Rondo. Of course, once they had those players on the team, it then become much easier to bring in guys like Posey, Cassell, etc.

If we start slowly adding the right players, we can get to that point. Walsh has put us in a position to get a franchise player the quickest way possible. If it works, great. If not, we use our flexibility to slowly accumulate the assets to get to that point. Donnie never, ever, promised us a championship roster in 3 years and I think Knicks fans have to remember that. What he did promise, was to clear the cap space to hopefully get us there sooner and he has done precisely that. Now that Walsh has the resources to get D'Antoni his guys, why can't we be patient and give these 2 the chance to deliver?

i don't understand the problem... u obviously think MDA didn't have the perfect roster to run his system with in Phoenix... my question is what do u think he would need then to win a title with running his style... it's not a complicated question... you're bringing all these other factors into play here about what Donnie promised, flexibility, cap space & what not, but that hasn't been the topic of our discussion... the topic has been will MDA's system ever win a championship... i have my doubts... u are apparently confident that it can as long as he has the right players to play it... i have proposed that he had the perfect roster to run it with in Phoenix & he still couldn't get to the Finals... u apparently disagree... so i'm asking u to give me examples of the players u think would be a perfect fit, cuz i'm trying to understand what you think this guy is going to need to win a title... afterall, is the goal here to just build a contending team, or is it to build a team we think can possibly win a championship one day? for me, it's the latter.

How am I being complicated? You are asking me for perfection and I'm hesitating to give you that because I don't know what is "perfect."

In regards to D'Antoni's roster in Phoenix, I think my stance has been clear. I believe (my own opinion) that Mike had enough players that fit his system there to win a title. I've said that plenty of times and I don't know how else I can spell that out. I think they faced significant injuries and other obstacles that I think prevented that ultimate goal but I believe just as things went a certain way and limited them from advancing past the Conference Finals, they just as easily could have gone a different way and ended with the Suns winning a title.

I gave you players in my post above that would fit in D'Antoni's system. Again, I don't know how to achieve perfection but I do know that players like Joe Johnson, Melo, Lee, and Gallo could likely run the system at a very high level. We don't need perfection, we need to be good enough to win a title and I think that is possible.

This summer, we start building a roster and ideally, we need to add a star. Hopefully, it comes in the off-season, if not, hopefully we get one next summer. You add a star or two and you go from there. I don't think I'm being complicated in saying that but if you want me to elaborate on any other details let me know, I just think there are so many options that I don't see why I have to tie myself to certain guys. We can get the players I mentioned above and that would work or we can do it with different guys, the point is, we need to start with a star player. We need a core of guys that will fit D'Antoni's system. Someone like Melo or Joe Johnson on top of someone like Bosh or Lee (or even Amare) is a decent start. I mean if we bring back Lee and sign Amare to something slightly less than the max, we can clear enough cap to go hard after Melo next summer. To me, that is a core of guys that can win in D'Antoni's system if you surround them with the right guys.

Hell, in 2 seasons the Knicks could potentially have a core along the lines of Melo, Joe Johnson, David Lee, Gallo, and Douglas. You surround those 5 guys with the right pieces and I think you can contend in D'Antoni's system.

so in your eyes, u would consider it a success if we came out of this summer's free agency with that core after all the moves we made to clear up cap space? do u really think that is a core that u can build a championship contender with? because i don't, not for a second do i think that core would be capable of contending for a championship, no matter what system they're going to run.

TMS wrote:i am trying to understand ur points here because i do respect ur opinion

Hell, in 2 seasons the Knicks could potentially have a core along the lines of Melo, Joe Johnson, David Lee, Gallo, and Douglas. You surround those 5 guys with the right pieces and I think you can contend in D'Antoni's system.

so in your eyes, u would consider it a success if we came out of this summer's free agency with that core after all the moves we made to clear up cap space? do u really think that is a core that u can build a championship contender with? because i don't, not for a second do i think that core would be capable of contending for a championship.

Well, Melo's not a possibility this summer but if we end up with that core of guys after next summer, yes I think it's a success because I think through trades, free agents, draft picks, etc., you can surround those guys with the right pieces to win. We win over 50 games with the above guys and being a winner attracts free agents to come play cheap (vets would be lining up to play in NY for a contender). That along with our unlimited resources as far as using expiring contracts to bring in other guys and I think we can certainly address areas like shot-blocking and defense through those avenues. Knowing that Donnie also has the resources to buy first round picks and 2nd round picks at will, I think we can draft a potential stud to add to the above group (although if we don't, we can make up for it in other ways).

I think in the above scenario, Melo, JJ, and Lee are essentially all-stars and I think in 2 seasons, Gallo can be on that level too, I really do. With 4 potential all-star talents, I think we are certainly a contender. Offensively, we would be a nightmare to defend and I'm confident that Donnie would still have the resources to bring in guys to shore up our defense and make it respectable.

Like you, I expect a playoff contender in 2010 and agree that anything less would be failure. With that said, I think we have to remember how crappy this situation was when Donnie took over and how we all felt that it would take at least a couple of years just to tear everything down. Walsh has done a good job of putting us in a position to potentially improve very quickly but there is no doubt that the direction he chose has it's own risks.

Hell, you know that I will be disappointed just like you will be if we don't land LeBron or Bosh but I'm not convinced that it will mean no chance at a championship for the next few years either. We can still get someone like Amare or Joe and then try to set ourselves up to add another star in 2011. And I think that's why Donnie made the Hill trade because even if we miss out on LeBron, there are still ways to ensure that the Knicks become competitive in 2010 and continue going in the right direction.

I personally think that if we ended up with a Melo-Lee-JJ or Amare-Melo-Lee trio, we would have something to build on and could potentially win a title with the right additions and if things go a certain way (i.e. Gallo develops into the type of player we think he can become). You might disagree and that's fine. The point is, there is a lot of flexibility in what we can do and if Donnie uses the cap on the right players, there are a lot of ways to succeed and for us to truly fail, we will have to strike out on every option (which is possible of course).

Now if you can imagine guys like Lebron and JJ3 on this team to add to a team that actually shares the ball pretty well, save for Al, you can easily imagine what kind of team is best suited for MDA. With the guys we have it's clear we can score but we could be far more efficient with better players, plus having a star in crunchtime is essential to contending for a title. A big that can pass and shoot is clearly a plus. A PF like Lee is a sure bet to be a fit offensively. I think that MDA wants to keep Lee for how he keeps the ball moving, shoots and finishes so well. We just need to bring in a Big who can do a lot of those things but also block shots! The Key is players that [b]can and do share the ball well[/b. We don't need a ball dominant PG, but instead would have a team full of ball movers at multiple positions. Lee, Chan, Gallo & TD is a nice start. A healthy TMac would also be a nice fit, but i'm not sure if he'll be able to get it back together. You add in studs like Lebron or JJ3 that also command attention but can pass like guards and you will have a team that can play very effectively in this system. The defensive presence inside would be the last thing I think to make that kind of roster work. We'll have to see what DW can accomplish, but I think we could put together a better roster than MDA had in PHX. A Roster not so dependent on one player and not so weak up the middle as Nash and Amare were. TD is a stronger defender, but just not the passer Nash is, but he still fits if we add a Bron or JJ3, who can also operate with the ball and setup teammates as well.

The real clincher is gonna be finding that C to help tighten up the D.

TMS wrote:just curious what makes u think MDA wants to play a defensive C in his system?

Apparently you just want to ignore the fact that he played a defensive player major minutes in the person of Jared. Don't get caught up in positions, cuz if there's a chance the player can help him win, he'll play them.

The thing is that if you have so much talent on the floor in the new roster which could feature, Lebron or JJ3 and Bosh, you can afford to have one guy out there just for the purpose of help D. I think people here are being obtuse when they make it sound like MDA is gonna rather lose games than compromise some ideal that he can't have a defensive role player on the court.

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:just curious what makes u think MDA wants to play a defensive C in his system?

Apparently you just want to ignore the fact that he played a defensive player major minutes in the person of Jared. Don't get caught up in positions, cuz if there's a chance the player can help him win, he'll play them.

The thing is that if you have so much talent on the floor in the new roster which could feature, Lebron or JJ3 and Bosh, you can afford to have one guy out there just for the purpose of help D. I think people here are being obtuse when they make it sound like MDA is gonna rather lose games than compromise some ideal that he can't have a defensive role player on the court.

So why didn't he play Jordan Hill? The guy is blocking shots for the Rockets and scores when needed. Forget about the purpose of the trade why come he didn't try and play Hill more just for defensive purposes in the paint? Nix, I think you are being obtuse when it comes to the fact that D'Antoni has this issue with big men that are not fluid shooters. The guy couldn't even resist leaving Jeffries alone just for defense. He had him start taking 3 pointers. The same with Bender. I think he can't help himself. Lee is going further and further away from the paint. I can't wait to see him launching 3 pointers like he had Z-Bo doing.

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:ur right i'm just being obtuse to the fact that this head coach was provided with a defensive shotblocking C and never played him i guess. i'm also conveniently forgetting the fact that he was so resistant to changing his philosophy to focus more on defense in Phoenix that he chose to part ways. care to throw any more inferences of personal bias against MDA my way or have i pretty much covered it?

Are you reffering to Darko when you say shotblocking C? Perhaps it's being a bit too simplistic to suggest that I think MDA would play an otherwise non productive player just for his shotblocking. I don't believe he wants to do that. We also had holes in the D at the top where Duhon wasn't able to keep his man out of the paint, so he preffered to use a more rangey big like Jared to help cover that. We know TD was better defensively but then he wasn't ready to run the offense. Look for every option you think he didn't use there was no perfect solution and that's how it is with bad teams. We had a lot of one dimensional guys and young developing guys who weren't ready right out of the box.

Then you have a guy like Hill who looks much different on a team full of tough defenders. His job is going to be much easier when he has good perimeter defenders hounding their man and directing them right at him. That's not what we had here. How many good defenders do we have? Shotblockers are more effective when the perimeter D is good and at least slows down penetrators rather than let them get open full speed drives at the basket. On our team the help defender doesn't have that extra split second to get over and help cuz the perimeter D isn't working as hard to slow down and harrass penetrators. This is why we're bringing in better players.

Further just cuz MDA may have played Darko or Hill more minutes early doesn't mean we would've won more. We had so many other issues that held us back from getting wins that no single factor or change in rotation was gonna make a lot of difference. It's not like you had Camby on the bench and he refused to play him. This is underachieving Darko and rookie Hill. Be careful in assuming that these players would be as successful here with our personnel and system. Hill is in a perfect situation to excel now. It's perfect in terms of the stye of play and the support he has. Here we're headed in an new direction and had a team of expiring deal vets. 2 totally different situations.

if Hill was never going to get minutes here in NY then we had no business taking him #8 to begin with... there's just no explanation to justify how badly we mismanaged that draft selection & his development during a season we were supposedly in rebuild mode... keep on trying to come up with excuses to satisfy yourself but no one else is buying it.

Jonathan Bender got 10 minutes a night to provide what exactly? let's face it, he had no business being out there on the floor, he was brought in because DW wanted to throw his old friend a bone & give him a shot to revive his dead career & MDA obliged him... they did so at the expense of developing a young player we invested a #8 overall lottery pick on... that in itself is simply inexcusable.

nixluva wrote:I understand the disgust from not seeing more of Hill in games, but there's not much chance we would see Hill getting those 10 mins Bender was getting. DW was being kind to an old friend but it really wasn't the reason Hill wasn't playing more. IMO having Hill out on the floor more would've been fine to see but I don't think he was going to solve all of his development issues just by playing in more games. If he was closer to a finished product he'd maybe still be here. DW wasn't willing to wait. Not when he had a chance to clear another 10mil. Kudos to him for taking the hit on not making the best pick but quickly turning it into capspace he could use to speed up improving the team.

Oh man, Nix you're incredible. You manage to not only acknowledge Walsh made a blunder but somehow give him props in the same sentence. Politics should be in your future. Just perfect.

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:let's get this straight... DW deserves credit for realizing he may have made a mistake in drafting Jordan Hill #8 & then dumping him as cap filler in a trade? interesting take... nix, u should be writing Hallmark cards, i've never met someone with as much shiny optimism as you my friend.

DW has done some good and made some mistakes as well, but it's what he does from here on that will define his time here. That's why I say if he's gonna bank everything on giving Lebron or Wade the best possible team it starts with the top players. Focusing on guys like Hill makes no sense. It's a calculated risk. DW felt he could get more value in using him to move Jared, but we won't know that until after this summer. One thing we can't take away from him is that he got us here with as much cap space as possible.

regardless of what happens this summer it won't excuse MDA's unwillingness to play a rookie we drafted #8 during a rebuilding year... there really is no defense for why MDA didn't play the kid over guys like Jeffries & Bender... in the end, we totally mismanaged the pick from the selection, to not playing him during a rebuilding year, to dumping him as cap filler in a trade where we gave up too much to free up cap space... in a perfect world you can sweep these types of things under the rug & say everything will be OK & they won't come back to haunt you... this franchise has already been burnt several times in the past by trading away draft picks & young prospects... it's reasonable for fans to be upset over how Knicks' management handled last year's draft selection from beginning to end regardless of how it might not phase you.