martin wrote:^ Bip, what's your point man? I don't get it.

It's the same point he always makes. He loves Larry Brown.

BasketballJones wrote:

martin wrote:^ Bip, what's your point man? I don't get it.

It's the same point he always makes. He loves Larry Brown.

that's what I thought. thanks.

Marv wrote:

martin wrote:

BasketballJones wrote:

martin wrote:^ Bip, what's your point man? I don't get it.

It's the same point he always makes. He loves Larry Brown.

that's what I thought. thanks.

whew. the amount of love he gushes for that short wrinkled man is getting uncomfortable.

Don't forget about his bladder control issues... no, I mean LB.

Allanfan20 wrote:Well then we just have opposing philosophies on how to deal with young players. Neither of us are right regardless, because nothing has been proven yet.

No - go look at OKC, then report back.

Rookies might not play on really good teams - sorta like how Walker and Giddens didn't get playing time on the celts- partly because they are behind all stars or starter caliber vets and because, well, they're not that good.

But why is it that the Knicks are arguably the only bad team not playing rookies all year? Every other basement dweller plays rookies.

Heck, if we had drafted Jennings, chances are good that MDA would never played him.

Jrue Holiday

A four-year varsity basketball letter-winner at Campbell Hall High School. As a senior, averaged 25.9 points, 11.2 rebounds, 6.9 assists and 4.8 steals. Rated the No. 1 point guard and the No. 2 overall prospect in the Class of 2008 by Rivals.com. Named the 2008 Gatorade National Player of the Year and Parade Magazine First Team All-America. Played in the 2008 McDonald's All-American Game, scoring 14 points and totaling five rebounds, five steals and three assists for the West Team. Also invited to play in the 2008 Jordan Brand Classic at Madison Square Garden. As a junior, named Gatorade California Player of the Year. Chosen for the Parade Magazine All-America Third Team and EA Sports All-America Second Team. Participated in the 2007 USA Basketball Men's Youth Development Festival Blue Team as a rising senior, averaging 18.2 points, 6.4 rebounds and 8.0 assists. Ranks second all-time in assists over the Festival (40) and in a game (12)."

Steven Curry was listed at "point guard" at Charlette Christian High School in 2006.

Curry and his college coach Bob McKillop decided to let Curry play the point guard position in his junior year, since this seemed most likely to be the spot Curry would end up playing professionally. It turned out to be a sound decision, and although Curry didn't shoot the ball as well in his junior year, he still had his moments, and he proved without a doubt that he was capable of playing the point guard position.

So neither of your two examples mirror Toney Douglas's situation. Can anyone suggest a player who didn't play point guard in high school or college, and managed to make a significant contribution at point guard in their first year in the NBA?

rvwink wrote:"was Jrue Holiday ready to be a winning PG in the NBA this season? the Sixers invested a 1st round pick on taking him & threw him into the fire at the PG position so he could learn on the job even tho Darren Collison was playing the PG position at UCLA... doesn't seem to have hurt his development as far as i can tell... & most of Stephen Curry's experience at Davidson was at the SG if i'm not mistaken (could be wrong i didn't follow him too closely in college)... these are just 2 examples from this past draft."

Jrue Holiday

A four-year varsity basketball letter-winner at Campbell Hall High School. As a senior, averaged 25.9 points, 11.2 rebounds, 6.9 assists and 4.8 steals. Rated the No. 1 point guard and the No. 2 overall prospect in the Class of 2008 by Rivals.com. Named the 2008 Gatorade National Player of the Year and Parade Magazine First Team All-America. Played in the 2008 McDonald's All-American Game, scoring 14 points and totaling five rebounds, five steals and three assists for the West Team. Also invited to play in the 2008 Jordan Brand Classic at Madison Square Garden. As a junior, named Gatorade California Player of the Year. Chosen for the Parade Magazine All-America Third Team and EA Sports All-America Second Team. Participated in the 2007 USA Basketball Men's Youth Development Festival Blue Team as a rising senior, averaging 18.2 points, 6.4 rebounds and 8.0 assists. Ranks second all-time in assists over the Festival (40) and in a game (12)."

Steven Curry was listed at "point guard" at Charlette Christian High School in 2006.

Curry and his college coach Bob McKillop decided to let Curry play the point guard position in his junior year, since this seemed most likely to be the spot Curry would end up playing professionally. It turned out to be a sound decision, and although Curry didn't shoot the ball as well in his junior year, he still had his moments, and he proved without a doubt that he was capable of playing the point guard position.

So neither of your two examples mirror Toney Douglas's situation. Can anyone suggest a player who didn't play point guard in high school or college, and managed to make a significant contribution at point guard in their first year in the NBA?

Douglas played college basketball at Auburn for one year, and became frustrated with his role on the team as a shooting guard. Douglas transferred to the Florida State Seminoles for the remainder of his collegiate career, where he switched to the point guard position—after forgoing eligibility for a season because of college basketball transfer regulations. In his sophomore season, Douglas initially struggled in his transition to a new team and position, but soon resumed a high level of play, overcoming a hand injury in the middle of the season. He emerged as a defensive force in his junior season, setting school and conference records for steals. Douglas stepped up as a team leader in his final season; he broke personal records in several statistical categories and helped lead the Seminoles to their first National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) tournament in 11 years.

Can anyone suggest a player who didn't play point guard in high school or college, and managed to make a significant contribution at point guard in their first year in the NBA?

i had my doubts about TD's ability to orchestrate an offense at the beginning of the season as did many others... that doesn't mean i wanted Chris Duhon leading this team after the way he was struggling all year... i wanted to see Hughes & Douglas getting minutes as our backcourt because i thought that was our best defensive tandem by far... neither of them could get off MDA's bench if their lives depended on it... for a team that was sorely lacking in any defensive intensity this season it would seem to have made sense to play your defensive minded players to me.

knicks1248 wrote:I remember both of them getting a shot at consistant minutes earlier in the year towards the end of DEC, and both played poorly especially hughs who went like 4 for 22 in three straight games. It was a short leash to begin with and when they didn't show immediate dividens they both started racking up the DNP CD..

Hughes was a main part of the rotation during that good stretch in December then went down w/an injury... MDA gave him a run of a few games coming back during which he struggled w/his shot & then was relegated to the bench which spurred the comments from Hughes about the lack of communication & everything else... meanwhile MDA stuck by his man Duhon through much worse struggles over a much longer period of time because supposedly he was the only guy who could play the PG position... that is until Sergio came along who got the shot over Toney Douglas & proceeded to show he had no clue how to run an offense or knock down a shot either.

TD got run in November & early December, then saw sporadic play for the rest of the year until mid March... we were well out of any playoff contention for over a month before he got back into the rotation... then all he proceeded to do was to show that he was ten times better than anyone we had on the roster at the PG position & sparked MDA to marvel at his ability saying "I didn't know he could do that"... seriously now... u can excuse average fans like u & me not to know these things since we have limited knowledge of these players, but someone who watches these guys everyday in practice & gets paid millions of dollars to coach them to say he had no idea this kid was capable of playing like that is pretty inexcusable.

TMS wrote:

Cosmic wrote:Some players don't learn by being chucked out into the fire right away. I think Toney would have but you know what? When he wasn't playing he damn sure was working hard as hell on his game and conditioning. He most likely played very tough in practice. He never whined. He just worked and worked and worked. Then he got his turn and he produced. Now he's a starter (at least for now).

Now he's playing amazing basketball.

To me that says he was handled properly by Mike.

What's to criticize? The kid is balling!

Our other draft pick, who is no longer our problem, was the exact opposite. It showed.

LOL at you talking like you been watching these kids practicing.

Where did I say I watched them practice?

You sure do love shoving words in my mouth that I never said and then bitching about it as if I did don't you.

Cosmic wrote:

TMS wrote:

Cosmic wrote:Some players don't learn by being chucked out into the fire right away. I think Toney would have but you know what? When he wasn't playing he damn sure was working hard as hell on his game and conditioning. He most likely played very tough in practice. He never whined. He just worked and worked and worked. Then he got his turn and he produced. Now he's a starter (at least for now).

Now he's playing amazing basketball.

To me that says he was handled properly by Mike.

What's to criticize? The kid is balling!

Our other draft pick, who is no longer our problem, was the exact opposite. It showed.

LOL at you talking like you been watching these kids practicing.

Where did I say I watched them practice?

You sure do love shoving words in my mouth that I never said and then bitching about it as if I did don't you.

ur right, i have no idea where i got that from

rvwink wrote:
"i'm not the one pretending to have known Toney Douglas could have succeeded as a PG... rvwink made the false assumption that TD had no prior experience at the PG position coming into the NBA to excuse MDA's handling of him this year."

Here are Toney Douglas's stats in College.

3/26/2010  3:47 PM
Toney Douglas Stat Summary:
Season	        GP 	MPG 	PPG 	FG% 	3FG% 	FT% 	APG 	RPG 	BPG 	SPG
2008-09 	35 	36.543 	21.457 	44.6 	38.5 	81.0 	2.914 	3.914 	0.429 	1.8
2007-08 	34 	35.4 	15.4 	43.0 	35.6 	80.9 	2.9 	3.2 	0.3 	2.6
2006-07 	30 	28.8 	12.7 	47.5 	39.7 	78.8 	2.9 	2.7 	0.3 	1.2
2004-05 (AUB) 	31 	35.6 	16.9 	42.4 	37.3 	78.9 	1.8 	5.3 	0.1 	1.4
    Career 	130	34.2	16.8 	44.1 	37.5 	80.2 	2.6	3.8 	0.3     1.8

It doesn't matter what they called him, it matters how he actually operated. Someone producing 2.9 assists per game is most certainly not playing as a true point guard.

Leonard Hamilton had a small fast guard laden roster the first two years there.
Nevertheless had TD not broken his hand they make the NCAA's He and Thornton and
Von Wafer the soph season.

Junior year still a short team lots of experienced guards. He was 'lead guard' but
Hamilton runs a motion offense quite similar to what some have said Jersey runs.

Senior year. Toney brought the ball up 70% and set the offense or just scored with speed.
Ran the defense 100%

His game is quite good from the off guard. If you give him space he will make you pay.
Or drive by you. Or create his own. He did run the pick and roll in college and I saw
him pass to the pop as well as recieve the pop for the corner 3 often.

Myself he was too good defensively not to find time on the floor for. And could knock down the open shot. The assists and timing he could have worked on any time from the one or two as the ball moves.

(shrugs) Tony is a lunchpail kinda guy. He finds minutes for me from day one considering this roster. I believe he was one of the best 5 by the end of November.

It is what it is. And Toney Douglas will DWTDD