franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

kam77 wrote:You guys should bet your UK memberships.

If LeBron actually does come here, I would love to see the non-believers explain themselves.

There are no LeBron believers. Even the most optimistic Knick fan knows chances are LeBron stays put.

But there are many non-believers who have very loudly and annoyingly trolled these boards for a while now.

Would love nothing more than for them to stfu.

If no one thinks/believes Lebron is coming here, why do people think it was a good idea to jettison 3 draft picks to dump Jared Jefferies?

Where ever you reason those picks will be- Isiah did the same thing when he traded 2 for Curry & Marbury.

How did that turn out.

And yes, pick 8 Jordan Hill is and will be no star- in fact, he might be out of the league.

But I would feel a whole lot better as a fan if we had our own pick this year - even at 8 - its a player we can add to the roster- cheap and with potential to become an NBA starter.

But if no one believes Lebron is coming, why see the value in creating more cap room?

There is def a chance Lebron comes here. How high? I'm not sure... maybe 20%? 40%? If those are the odds Walsh was 100% right in sacrificing the draft pick to move JJ.

We have been discussion for years arounf here how the MOST difficult thing in the NBA to accomplish is to get a star player. This is why most would have been 100% ok with tanking and trading good players in a year we were heading to the lottery, because the CHANCE is worth it.

Why is this different? LBJ has been open about flirting with coming to NY, loving this city, etc etc

If you have a 20% to get him to do what it takes. Another 20 years could go by before we get a chance to aquire a player like Lebron. I dont really see how this is up for debate. To me its not.

Will it set us back if we dont get him? Yes. How much? Time will tell (hopefully not).

And there are other options. You may not love them but thats the price you pay to taking a shot at one of the best players of our generation

If its 20%- that is great.

What has me most concerned, and I think Briggs and others too, is the 80% scenario where we are going to max out Joe Johnson and some other 2nd & 3rd tier talent like Dirk. And with those two and us capped out, we guaranteed to be a mid 40 win team, exit first round for the next few years.

That is not something to look forward to, although maybe after the last 10 years it could be.

And this is not about Walsh making a bad decision- this is about Dolan forcing the moves when we strike out on Lebron, and screwing us up even more.

While sucking and landing lotto picks doesn't work out for every franchise, it has for some. Just look at Cleveland, Orlando, OKC & the Celtics.

It didnt happen. I dont know if Walsh has intel or not. I dont know what his backup plan is or not, but at least its a plan. We havent had a GM try this. Also the cap flex gives him great trade flex because he doesnt have to match salaries.

I cant even say I am all for this, but he's a good BB guy and deserves the same shot the others before him got

EwingsGlass wrote:This thread wasn't supposed to be a measurement of the likelihood of James, Wade and/or Bosh coming to NY. It was an attempt to question the $33M argument of why it couldn't happen.

It is clear to me that the economics create a scenario where it is possible for free agents to change place. In this sense, the stars are aligning.

Franco, you have said numerous times "when has it happened" and I gave a number of instances where all star caliber players have switched teams despite their own teams wanting to keep them.

So, let me put the question back to you. When was the last time that LA, NY, CHI or BOS had cap space to sign a max free agent and failed to? Last time I remember LA had cap space, they signed Shaq. Boston might have had cap space, but ended up making trades for Garnett and Allen. When they had any cap space, Chicago overpaid Ben Wallace-- that would be the worst case scenario in NY (i.e. to over pay someone like Wallace).

As far as I can tell though, the Big Cities get the players they want.

no - I thought the thread was started out as a rebuttal to Briggs saying - potential free agents won't leave $33m on the table and take lesser deals. I still have yet to hear an example of an in their prime all star leaving money on the table. I think we've covered some S&T type deals where FA threatened their team with leaving.

The question I think we need to answer/debate is this -

what is the % chance that we get a game changing franchise talent.

And I think we can also debate whether there is more than one, or if its Lebron or bust.

Just because we have the cap room doesn't mean we're getting Lebron.

In fact, I've argued that we could have 0 cap room, but as long as other teams had room and could offer Lebron the threat, he could force the cavs to S&T him hear, assuming that the reason we had 0 cap room was we had good players to send the Cavs way, and of course, that he wanted to come here.

As it stands now, what could we even trade in a S&T? Mind you, Lebron might prefer that, and we could lose out to another team as a result of not having the assets to send the Cavs.

franco12 wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:This thread wasn't supposed to be a measurement of the likelihood of James, Wade and/or Bosh coming to NY. It was an attempt to question the $33M argument of why it couldn't happen.

It is clear to me that the economics create a scenario where it is possible for free agents to change place. In this sense, the stars are aligning.

Franco, you have said numerous times "when has it happened" and I gave a number of instances where all star caliber players have switched teams despite their own teams wanting to keep them.

So, let me put the question back to you. When was the last time that LA, NY, CHI or BOS had cap space to sign a max free agent and failed to? Last time I remember LA had cap space, they signed Shaq. Boston might have had cap space, but ended up making trades for Garnett and Allen. When they had any cap space, Chicago overpaid Ben Wallace-- that would be the worst case scenario in NY (i.e. to over pay someone like Wallace).

As far as I can tell though, the Big Cities get the players they want.

no - I thought the thread was started out as a rebuttal to Briggs saying - potential free agents won't leave $33m on the table and take lesser deals. I still have yet to hear an example of an in their prime all star leaving money on the table. I think we've covered some S&T type deals where FA threatened their team with leaving.

The question I think we need to answer/debate is this -

what is the % chance that we get a game changing franchise talent.

And I think we can also debate whether there is more than one, or if its Lebron or bust.

Just because we have the cap room doesn't mean we're getting Lebron.

In fact, I've argued that we could have 0 cap room, but as long as other teams had room and could offer Lebron the threat, he could force the cavs to S&T him hear, assuming that the reason we had 0 cap room was we had good players to send the Cavs way, and of course, that he wanted to come here.

As it stands now, what could we even trade in a S&T? Mind you, Lebron might prefer that, and we could lose out to another team as a result of not having the assets to send the Cavs.

I started the thread to to challenge the statement that they are leaving $33m on the table. I have conclusively proven that they are not giving up the $33M, they are giving up the guaranty. Then, I proved that these players in particular have in the past taken less guaranteed money in the form of a 6th year contract last time they signed contracts.

As for free agents, I gave you an answer. Tracy McGrady and Grant Hill. And Shaq. I discussed lower cost deals where players took less money to play where they feel they can win. I raised the spectre of Euro players leaving bigger salaries in Europe to play in the NBA because it is a bigger stage. You dismissed those.

And yet you keep changing the topic and asking the same stupid question. So I posed a question to you, that you ignored.

My question is intended to give meaning to yours. How often have teams in marquis markets had cap space? ANd of those, not gotten the player they wanted? Or used expirings to instead get a different player? It is my presumption that it would take a marquis market and its oversized fan base to draw superstar talent. Would Kobe leave LA to go to Denver? Nope. Would Baron leave San Jose to go to LA? Yup. Was it max dollars? Nope. I am saying over the last six years of the current CBA, given the number of max contracts that get signed, there is too small a sample size to prove any point based upon the fact that "no max free agent in their prime left more guaranteed money to change teams.

I never said Lebron was coming. I still am not saying it. I am saying that cap space in a marquis city = superstar talent free agent signing.

As for S&T, don't overlook the value of a trade exception. That would allow the Cavs to absorb a similarly sized contract without salary cap restrictions. You know the rest of our roster. Although, I mentioned the S&T possibilities for other players we have.

I'm saying, you have no idea what you are talking about so stop trying to tell me it can't happen.

TMS wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:As for free agents, I gave you an answer. Tracy McGrady and Grant Hill.

the Magic got both those guys in sign & trade deals... Raptors got back a 1st round pick from ORL for T-Mac & the Pistons got back a young Ben Wallace & Chucky Atkins for Grant Hill.

Superstar talent in their prime that left. The fact that the deals shouldn't be a limiting factor.

TMS wrote:IMO we would have been better off keeping the picks to use in a possible sign & trade to get 1 of the big names... we already had the cap space to sign at least 1 max FA anyway... too late now... just have to hope DW did the right thing here... he's gonna have the entire city of NY come down on him if Lebron doesn't end up here this summer.

It is BS to disregard those as "not free agent signings". Different mechanism, same issue.

not BS... it's just not the same thing... when u get back assets for a player, it's called a trade... i dunno why u keep insisting on painting these as FA signings when that just wasn't the case... it's OK to be wrong about stuff, just admit it was an oversight & move on.