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what is JJ's value on the open market?
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Markji
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1/8/2010  6:12 PM
TMS wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
TMS wrote:
fishmike wrote:
TMS wrote:the difference between CA & FL's shotblocking is pretty big... CA is 5th in the NBA in shots blocked per 48... FL is currently 24th
are you saying Chris Anderson is a significantly higher caliber player than JJ? You can.. and that would be your opinion. Might be right also. My point is it doesnt matter, because the market has been set for JJ and its something between Anderson and the Orlando guy.

Hey, it also doesnt mean JJ will get it. Lots of guys overvalue themselves, but that also doesnt matter. If you dont offer him a long guarenteed contract like what those guys got he's playing next year and he playing for $7mm

both guys are role players, but CA is 1 of the best role players out there IMO... FL does his job & does it pretty well, but there are other areas of his game that are such a liability that it counterbalances the pluses he brings & because of that i don't believe he's worth investing such a longterm contract towards... i would easily try & dump his contract if i could this year & only consider bringing him back in 2011 when his option expires if he would agree to a 2-3 year deal at ~$2.5-3.5 mil per... when the market has been set for a player like CA i find it hard to justify paying the same amount or more for a player who's not as good... i think Gortat got paid much like Big Turd did based on some short stretch of games he played last postseason where guys suddenly fell in love w/his skills, but to me he's still a scrub... i don't see anything about him that would warrant a longterm investment either... IMO neither he nor FL are comparable players to CA.

chris andersen can't guard chris paul. jared jeffries can. if you don't think that's a valuable skill, i'll just say i'm glad you aren't running the front office.

IF we get a guy like lebron, a guy like jeffries becomes even MORE valuable in my opinion. if we are a contending team, it would be very nice to have jeffries to hound everyone from paul pierce to rashard lewis to joe johnson.

having him opt out and sign a longer deal at a lower cap hold early on in the pact is smart and makes sense for both sides. 6yrs for $30M for jeffries for his role in this defense is a good deal.

no, he can't guard CP3, but he can damn sure help to make sure CP3 doesn't score when he gets into the lane w/his shotblocking ability & length... i never said Effries doesn't provide a valuable skill, i coulda sworn i just got done praising the man's defensive ability... are u denying how much of a liability he is on the offensive side of the ball tho? if so, i'm glad you aren't running our scouting team... CA is a better player than FL dude, believe it.

IF we get Lebron with Effries still here is a big IF... that means he'd have to agree to come here being the only max type FA & willing to settle for having to bear most of the burden once again, similar to what he's got now in CLE... if he agrees to come here w/o another max FA then fine, but do you know if he would? i don't... i think having the most possible flexibility by dumping our bad contracts if we can is the best way to go... if not, just deal w/not having the extra $4 mil in cap space & wait til Effries' contract expires... THEN u can consider bringing him back on a 2-3 year deal at about half of midlevel dollars, which IMO is about what his value should be.

6 years for Effries is not a good deal, i'm sorry but i disagree w/u & i'm not the only one... this guy is not worth locking up til the age of 34, u are seriously bugging if you think otherwise IMO. (at least u won't be alone, Isiah was buggin' too)

TMS - I wholeheartily agree with you on not giving JJ 6 years. That is an Isiah move. But 3 years (or maybe even 4 yrs) I would go for. (That is really like a 2 yr or 3 yr extension since we have him for next year already.)

Another point for Jeffries, he doesn't require the ball on the offensive end like so many other players. So if two max FA sign here, there won't be any problem with Jeffries demanding the ball and they can take more shots which will max their value and their happiness.

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93BUICK
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1/8/2010  6:30 PM
kam77 wrote:Fishmike you're seriously overvaluing a guy with career averages of 5.2pts and 4.4rebs and .5 blocks.
This year you think he's playing so well, he's getting 3.9pts 3.8rebs and 1.1 blocks.

C'mon no one but Isiah would look at that as MLE type player.

And those are pumped up "system" stats!

If you are still following the team and reading sites like this, there is nothing, short of your own demise, that is going to throw you off this train.
orangeblobman
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Nauru
1/8/2010  7:42 PM
here are bowen's stats. in my opinion, jeffries can be a better bowen because of his length. he's only 28.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3167/career

WE AIN'T NOWHERE WITH THIS BUM CHOKER IN CARMELO. GIVE ME STARKS'S 2-21 ANY DAY OVER THIS LACKLUSTER CLUSTEREFF.
TMS
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1/8/2010  11:08 PM
orangeblobman wrote:here are bowen's stats. in my opinion, jeffries can be a better bowen because of his length. he's only 28.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3167/career

Bowen could hit the 3 point shot... he became pretty good at it in fact... & he played all NBA defense... do u think your man can progress his game to that level? being taken in the lottery this guy had to have some talent & skills to be regarded so highly by WAS at some point, but i haven't seen any progression in his game since he's been in the NBA & it's been 8 years now... i don't see him being anything more than what he is now... just my take.

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TMS
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1/8/2010  11:16 PM
Markji wrote:TMS - I wholeheartily agree with you on not giving JJ 6 years. That is an Isiah move. But 3 years (or maybe even 4 yrs) I would go for. (That is really like a 2 yr or 3 yr extension since we have him for next year already.)

Another point for Jeffries, he doesn't require the ball on the offensive end like so many other players. So if two max FA sign here, there won't be any problem with Jeffries demanding the ball and they can take more shots which will max their value and their happiness.

let's say u offered him 3 years at $12 mil ($4 mil per), which for him is on the edge of overpaying if u compare him to comparable talent around the league, do u think he'd opt out of his contract to take it? that's only $5 mil over 3 seasons beyond his option year, which amounts to $1.7 mil per, the veteran's minimum basically... i don't think he'd do it... u'd have to pay the guy at least $5 mil per over 4 years to make it worth his while to opt out, & at that point how much benefit do we really get out of saving an extra $2 mil off our cap for this offseason? IMHO if u can't dump him this year for an expiring we're probably just better off biting the bullet on his option year & letting him expire after next season... that leaves open your options going forward & u can still extend him if u can't find any other suitable replacement... IMO u owe it to yourself to give Jordan Hill the opportunity at some point anyway... the guy has the ability to block shots & rebound & unlike JJ has a more polished offensive skill set... if you're looking for defensive role players to round out your bench u can find guys like that as undrafted rookie FA's every year... i just don't see much upside to extending him to a longterm deal... this is just 1 man's opinion.

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
orangeblobman
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1/9/2010  12:22 AM
You guys gotta read this about Jeffries!!!

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/12132/watch-jared-jeffries

...But eventually we started watching Jared Jeffries. Once that started, I never did anything else. It was natural -- to watch Jeffries was to understand the Knicks' entire defense, and most of the Bobcats' offense.

Jeffries guarded various different Bobcats, but more than anything he was empowered to roam wherever the action was, and did. If the Bobcats were shooting, the uber-long Jeffries was there, annoying the shooter.

And he has a crazy knack for it. If the Bobcats missed, or turned it over, Jeffries always seemed to be there, sometimes even reaching all the way around his own teammates who had better position but were nonetheless less effective. It was almost comical how he starred in nearly every good thing New York did on defense, and made things very difficult for the Bobcats' offense, but almost never earned a statistic. 10 rebounds, six points, two blocks and a steal, isn't bad, but it's nothing compared to what he did. In fairness, you should probably triple his steal and block numbers.

Not to beat a dead horse, but if there's a case for plus/minus or some kinds of stats the measure defensive contributions, Jeffries is it. The boxscore said he was so-so. I say he was this game's clear MVP.

WE AIN'T NOWHERE WITH THIS BUM CHOKER IN CARMELO. GIVE ME STARKS'S 2-21 ANY DAY OVER THIS LACKLUSTER CLUSTEREFF.
Cosmic
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1/9/2010  8:41 AM
EwingsGlass wrote:
Cosmic wrote:FishLips value is a sack of leaves. If those leaves happen to expire in 2010 then we're lucky. That's it.


TMS, don't stop doing what you do. Some people are so giddy about our recent winning ways that they now want to extend FishLips. Talk about delusions of grandeur.

Whoa... how about reading the post. The concept is not that we want to extend JJ, its that it may be economical to do so, assuming he opts out of the existing contract and signs a longer deal at less money per year.

On the other hand JJ is performing well and has become a defensive asset. The only question mark on him right now is the 2010 $$$ he will command. Check the stats, read the posts, then summarize what people are saying.

I've checked the stats, watched the games, read the posts, and it amazes me how quickly a few wins can turn people into fans of garbage players.

That argument aside....I don't recall players opting out of guaranteed money only to receive that money stretched over a period of years. Besides, as with any contract, the moment the player opts out the team can turn around and say "THANKS AND NOW GET LOST" because it is not a binding statement to tell a player "Hey look, opt out, and we'll pay you even more money but over more years so we can have cap flexibility." It's not binding and you can't legally make it a binding statement. So players don't do this.

The reverse was Boozer telling CLE to let him out of his contract and he'd re-sign with them for 35M (or what it was, something like that) and the moment CLE let him out of his contract he was a free man no matter what was discussed and he went and got 60M from Utah. It's the same thing here but in reverse.

So...I never see that happening.

But, yes, I have read the posts, on this forum and others, and suddenly because we've won some games against meager competition, an absolutely worthless garbage player is suddenly being hailed as a building block for the future.

I don't understand it.

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Cosmic
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1/9/2010  8:43 AM
jusnice wrote:I hear fishlipsers are passionate like the greeks...

LOL.

I'm never living that thread down am I.

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fishmike
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1/9/2010  10:28 AM
again... nobody has answered the question and the point of this discussion seems lost.

You do this to sign David Lee.
You do this because its the only way to knock $3mm off of JJs cap # for 2010 as we are working under the assumption that no team is giving us an expiring deal for him.

All you guys are talking about 6 years 6 years.... All I am talking about is ways to get both Lebron in and our best frontcourt player BACK.

Focus people... keep your eyes on the ball

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
joec32033
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1/9/2010  10:31 AM    LAST EDITED: 1/9/2010  10:37 AM
fishmike wrote:again... nobody has answered the question and the point of this discussion seems lost.

You do this to sign David Lee.
You do this because its the only way to knock $3mm off of JJs cap # for 2010 as we are working under the assumption that no team is giving us an expiring deal for him.

All you guys are talking about 6 years 6 years.... All I am talking about is ways to get both Lebron in and our best frontcourt player BACK.

Focus people... keep your eyes on the ball

Honestly, I have been getting this feeling that Unless it's Wade and LBJ, I would be perfectly happy with JUST LBJ and resigning Lee this year and trying to get guys like Paul or Deron or something else a little later.

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TMS
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1/9/2010  9:46 PM
fishmike wrote:again... nobody has answered the question and the point of this discussion seems lost.

You do this to sign David Lee.
You do this because its the only way to knock $3mm off of JJs cap # for 2010 as we are working under the assumption that no team is giving us an expiring deal for him.

All you guys are talking about 6 years 6 years.... All I am talking about is ways to get both Lebron in and our best frontcourt player BACK.

Focus people... keep your eyes on the ball

that point has been addressed by several people... it's not worth the cap savings this year to lock up FL to that long of a contract... we've heard these proposals in the past in reference to Eddy Curry as well & not many people were fond of that idea either... if u can't dump these guys' contracts for expirings, then you're better off just biting the bullet & letting them expire after this season & taking the cap savings in 2011.

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
fishmike
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1/10/2010  9:33 AM
TMS wrote:
fishmike wrote:again... nobody has answered the question and the point of this discussion seems lost.

You do this to sign David Lee.
You do this because its the only way to knock $3mm off of JJs cap # for 2010 as we are working under the assumption that no team is giving us an expiring deal for him.

All you guys are talking about 6 years 6 years.... All I am talking about is ways to get both Lebron in and our best frontcourt player BACK.

Focus people... keep your eyes on the ball

that point has been addressed by several people... it's not worth the cap savings this year to lock up FL to that long of a contract... we've heard these proposals in the past in reference to Eddy Curry as well & not many people were fond of that idea either... if u can't dump these guys' contracts for expirings, then you're better off just biting the bullet & letting them expire after this season & taking the cap savings in 2011.

so in biting the bullet you mean let David Lee walk for nothing. Hmmm... got to disagree with you on that strategy.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Andrew
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1/10/2010  10:02 AM
Signing Lebron may hing on having a 2nd near all star player on the team (dlee). If signing JJ allows that to happen then you do it.
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fishmike
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1/10/2010  11:24 AM
Andrew wrote:Signing Lebron may hing on having a 2nd near all star player on the team (dlee). If signing JJ allows that to happen then you do it.
but but... if it took 6 years? But thats like Isiah. Wait... what were we talking about again?
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EwingsGlass
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1/10/2010  12:39 PM
Hypothetically, JJ should be tradeable to somebody at the right price (i.e. included in the right package). Same goes for Curry.

In order to best choose between alternatives, we need more information.

1) If Lebron would only come to NY if another max FA came with him, you would need to do whatever it took to be rid of JJ and Curry, even if it means losing David Lee and/or a couple of our prospects.

2) Even if the Knicks can wait to give a second max contract in 2011, at that point you are constricted by Chandler's caphold and his restricted free agent status. This cast serious doubts on the Knicks ability to put another superstar with Lebron after the 2010 offseason. That is, cap space in 2011 is not as valuable as cap space in 2010.

3) Having contracts after the 2010 season is not a problem if you have a key core of players intact because of the Knicks ability to assume luxury tax costs. However, to prevent a Layden-esque/Isiah-esque salary cap screwup, none of the high cost contracts should extend beyond the Lebron's contract or the other max FA's (i.e. if you give LBJ an early termination option, your other contracts should be co-terminous.

So the real question is, is 5 years of JJ worth keeping our youth? My answer is only if it is part of a package that gets us a second max FA. Economically, saving $3m in salary cap by extending JJ would allow you to use the other young contracts to move Curry. Moving Curry is much harder and much more important than moving JJ or worrying about re-structuring JJ.

You know I gonna spin wit it
markvmc
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1/10/2010  1:13 PM
Moving Curry seems next to impossible unless he (a) gets playing time, and (b) doesn't use it to embarrass himself. (a) seems unlikely unless we fall out of playoff contention, which is why losing a few games on the bounce might not be the worst thing for our long-term prospects.
TMS
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1/10/2010  2:22 PM
fishmike wrote:
TMS wrote:
fishmike wrote:again... nobody has answered the question and the point of this discussion seems lost.

You do this to sign David Lee.
You do this because its the only way to knock $3mm off of JJs cap # for 2010 as we are working under the assumption that no team is giving us an expiring deal for him.

All you guys are talking about 6 years 6 years.... All I am talking about is ways to get both Lebron in and our best frontcourt player BACK.

Focus people... keep your eyes on the ball

that point has been addressed by several people... it's not worth the cap savings this year to lock up FL to that long of a contract... we've heard these proposals in the past in reference to Eddy Curry as well & not many people were fond of that idea either... if u can't dump these guys' contracts for expirings, then you're better off just biting the bullet & letting them expire after this season & taking the cap savings in 2011.

so in biting the bullet you mean let David Lee walk for nothing. Hmmm... got to disagree with you on that strategy.

ummm... no... i mean to do the sensible thing & dump Fishlips' contract this year for an expiring & then weigh your options after & not do the moronic thing & lock up Fishlips to a 6 year deal... if u can't dump Fishlips' contract then you let him expire at season's end, re-sign Lee & weigh your options in 2011, because i don't see Lebron coming here if we don't have the cap space to sign up 2 max guys... think we've already gone over all this.

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Cosmic
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1/10/2010  2:55 PM
Again, those saying we can tell FishLips to opt out and we'll do the right thing and re-sign him to his same money but over multiple years have lost their way. First off the moment he opts out we can then tell him to get lost. There is no legally binding statement you can make to a player to cause them to do that and be protected from getting screwed. Secondly it's against the CBA to negotiate such backroom deals. See Joe Smith. Thirdly, in reverse, revisit Boozer who told Cleveland that if they DONT pick up his option he will sign a long term deal on the cheap - and they let him go - and he laughed and ran to Utah for a bigger contract.

YOU CANT DO WHAT YOU GUYS ARE PROPOSING FOR SO MANY REASONS


So why are we talking about it?

Lastly, anyone praising FishLips for his play recently, are drunk and blind as a result of a good month of basketball. FISHLIPS SUCKS. Anyone wants to take him off our hands for a 2010? MY GOD you jump on that as quickly as possible. THIS CLOWN is not the answer to anything for us!

I can't believe some of the things I have read in this thread...

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fishmike
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1/10/2010  3:59 PM
Cosmic wrote:Again, those saying we can tell FishLips to opt out and we'll do the right thing and re-sign him to his same money but over multiple years have lost their way. First off the moment he opts out we can then tell him to get lost. There is no legally binding statement you can make to a player to cause them to do that and be protected from getting screwed. Secondly it's against the CBA to negotiate such backroom deals. See Joe Smith. Thirdly, in reverse, revisit Boozer who told Cleveland that if they DONT pick up his option he will sign a long term deal on the cheap - and they let him go - and he laughed and ran to Utah for a bigger contract.

YOU CANT DO WHAT YOU GUYS ARE PROPOSING FOR SO MANY REASONS


So why are we talking about it?

Lastly, anyone praising FishLips for his play recently, are drunk and blind as a result of a good month of basketball. FISHLIPS SUCKS. Anyone wants to take him off our hands for a 2010? MY GOD you jump on that as quickly as possible. THIS CLOWN is not the answer to anything for us!

I can't believe some of the things I have read in this thread...

then dont read it. Go back and remind us how Gallo is a bust and Lee is a MLE player at best
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Cosmic
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1/10/2010  9:37 PM
fishmike wrote:then dont read it. Go back and remind us how Gallo is a bust and Lee is a MLE player at best

I never said Gallo was a bust. In fact I said I couldn't believe how good of a player he was after that one third quarter SL game outburst he had. My problem with Gallo was the ongoing back problems and the complete lack of communication on the Knicks' part in regards to it.

Lee is an MLE type player because he plays like a 10M dollar man on one side of the ball and like an non-guaranteed minimum player on the other. You average it out and you got...well, what we got.

As to not reading a thread, I'm a Knick fan, this is a Knick forum, I'm going to read threads about the Knicks. If I disagree with what I read I'm going to debate it.

Not sure why some get so offended by such. Maybe we should have forums that are invite only so every single thread can glorify our players as superstars and nobody can deny it. That'd be a lot of fun wouldn't it?

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what is JJ's value on the open market?

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