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Knicks meet with Stackhouse
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Cosmic
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8/5/2009  8:19 PM
Posted by GKFv2:
Posted by Cosmic:
Posted by kam77:
Posted by Cosmic:
Posted by kam77:

I dont think we oughtta sign Stackhouse but some of you guys need to chill.

There is absolutley no downside to showing Stackhouse around, meeting with D'antoni, working him out, having lunch etc...

It shows that we are a class organization. Even if we don't sign the guy, he'll go back and spread the word that this isn't the Dysfunctional MSG regime we're known for. That we're an organization aiming for a new rebirth. The rebirth of cool.

What are we a soup kitchen?

What is the downside? Would these guys have come to visit if Isiah was still here? It shows the rest of the league we're not toxic anymore.

I see absolutely no value in any of these guys mentioned. What are they going to do? Be one year rentals? To do what? Not win us more games that's for sure. Mentor the kids? How....these aren't leaders we're talking about. Stackhouse is half way. Kidd was but arrogant. Grant Hill was. The others mentioned aren't even close in fact the entire other direction: Tinsley, Iverson, JWill. Cancers.

So what exactly is the point of these players we speak of?

To date the only player on the entire list so far talked to that makes any sense at all was Sessions: And even then I don't see the hype around him - apparently - neither do 29 other teams which includes his present (former) team.

So what gives? That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Whose next? The big men? Dikembe? Oakley? Kevin Willis?

I mean COMEON what is the point.

Who exactly do you want the Knicks to target? Kobe?

How do you get that out of my post?

I think I made it pretty clear that only Sessions is worthwhile out of any of the discussed - outside of Grant Hill and Kidd whom both went back to where they were.

It's not about who I want the Knicks to target in 2009 it's who I DONT want them to target and outside of Sessions, who I do have reservations about as well, I don't see anyone on Donnie's list so far that's worth it for us to even bother with.

Again, there is no value in any of them we are better off not signing anyone if this is what is to be had.

This also isn't about turning over every rock - what exactly does anyone expect to find with these washed up players? A 10 win boost? Major development of one of our kids as a mentor? Yeah, not likely at all.

Von Wafer of all people would be a more worthwhile target than anyone outside of Sessions that has been mentioned.

We just drafted Douglas and spent a lot to get him. Why not let him play behind Duhon? Why not keep Nate as a stop gap for one more year?

Why all this reaching for geriatric players many of whom have questionable character or total project players? What is the reward in doing so?
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Cosmic
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8/5/2009  8:21 PM
Posted by subzero0:
Posted by Cosmic:
Posted by subzero0:

Ahh so hopefully now everyone is starting to realize exactly what Walsh is doing to the Knicks. Is it starting to hit you guys yet? Still need more clues guys? We are being turned into perennial playoff losers... just like the Pacers.

Nah, his 2010 plan is still rolling, and I like it and am patient with that.
It's his 2009 plan that has me buggy. Why take on any of these losers? I don't see any purpose in it at all. It won't lead to wins and it won't lead to our youth being improved by their presence. There's no purpose to it at all.

If we want some warm bodies on the bench just sign some undrafted players. At least they'll be able to walk under their own power.

Yes, but here's the problem cosmic. These marginal players will make us just good enough to get horrible picks in the draft, not that the draft is anything Walsh cares about mind you.

The problem is of a bigger scope than just this offseason though, isnt it? I have said it again and again. When you dont start the base of your team through the draft you are almost certainly doomed to become a perennial playoff loser.

We can thank Isiah for dumping four big draft picks the past decade that could have led to us building through the draft. Now we're saddled with just good enough players - most of whom are youth - to keep us just out of the good draft pick pool in 2011. Yet, that's looking too far ahead we don't know what 2010-2011 will bring.

Again, I don't like this geriatric hunt Walsh has been on the past 3 weeks so except for the Darko/QRich swap and interest in Toney Douglas the 2009 offseason so far has gone pretty poorly.

It does not affect my interest and faith in the 2010 offseason however so until we get there I just can't have much to say on it outside of - if we do sign Sessions then we better be at least dumping Jeffries otherwise I don't know what to say at that point other than to cross my fingers.

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Cosmic
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8/5/2009  8:23 PM
Posted by CrushAlot:

The previous regime would have traded our 09 pick and Chandler for Elton Brand and waived his physical. The MLE would have been offered for the max number of years for Gortat or some other sure fire bust/one dimensional player. I am sure some sort of sign and trade involving one of the core young players would be made to acquire a bad apple, one dimensional, player who played the same position as someone else on the roster that the team committed alot of money to. I like what Walsh is doing. The only drama right now is being created by the NY media.

Exactly on Isiah.

I don't like the past 3 week geriatric hunt of 2009 or the courting of Sessions all that much. Yet I view it separate from the 2010 overall plan of which I am more than happy to wait and see how it unfolds before I get upset with it. They are two different things.
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Cosmic
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8/5/2009  8:25 PM
Posted by knicks1248:

When you bring in Duhon, larry hughs, al harrington, the same guys that have either been in winning situatins and are veterens and still lose, what are you suppose to think. I mean look at the situation, Larry had not played in months, al had not played in months and duhon was a back up.

These players where done by the 4th qrtr.

If you expect these guys who have either age or dust on there asses to all of a sudden pop a 5hr energy booster and be able to run up and down in mikes system, ur kidding yourself.

These guys are not even solid rentals

Duhon was brought in as a rental and as an audition.
Harrington was acquired because he had a shorter contract than Crawford and also came in to audition for beyond his 2010 expiring.
Hughes was acquired to turn 3 roster spots into 1. TT/Mobley were acquired to trim Zach's 2011 to 2010.

These deals were not made with talent in mind. They were not made to make a run at the 2009 playoffs nor the 2010 playoffs.

They were made to push Isiah's contract mistakes out the door. They've done just that.

I think you're missing that little bit here in regards to those moves.
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Paladin55
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8/5/2009  10:17 PM
Posted by kam77:

I dont think we oughtta sign Stackhouse but some of you guys need to chill.

There is absolutley no downside to showing Stackhouse around, meeting with D'antoni, working him out, having lunch etc...

It shows that we are a class organization. Even if we don't sign the guy, he'll go back and spread the word that this isn't the Dysfunctional MSG regime we're known for. That we're an organization aiming for a new rebirth. The rebirth of cool.

Does Stackhouse get a Knicks' jersey with his name on it for this workout?
No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities- C.N. Bovee
EwingsGlass
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8/5/2009  10:28 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by knicks1248:

Martin unless your AKA " The Most" that's not stating everyone.

That stating any pct pass 50..

unless you are 50%, then speak only for yourself.

Knicks1248, maybe if you did more math problems and puzzles, you wouldn't find these Walsh's strategy so mind boggling. I'm no mensa member, but it seems like a pretty simple plan-- don't add to 2010 salary unless you are certain they will be a key component of the team going forward. You don't even need a calculator and a copy of the Collective Bargaining Agreement to figure this one out--Walsh has said it repeatedly in his interviews what his strategy, and is oft quoted in the papers, tv, blogs etc... that you profess to read. "Most" people would agree that Walsh has been pretty straight forward and open about his plans.
You know I gonna spin wit it
EwingsGlass
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8/5/2009  10:32 PM
Posted by knicks1248:

When you bring in Duhon, larry hughs, al harrington, the same guys that have either been in winning situatins and are veterens and still lose, what are you suppose to think. I mean look at the situation, Larry had not played in months, al had not played in months and duhon was a back up.

These players where done by the 4th qrtr.

If you expect these guys who have either age or dust on there asses to all of a sudden pop a 5hr energy booster and be able to run up and down in mikes system, ur kidding yourself.

These guys are not even solid rentals

Are you serious? Do you not see the termination dates on each of the contracts for each player you named? Not to mention that Harrington has looked sharp, best value for Crawford we could have gotten--especially with 1 year less contract. These guys are free options. If they turn into something good, its all benefit. If not, they have expiration date on their jerseys.
You know I gonna spin wit it
CrushAlot
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8/5/2009  10:40 PM
Duhon played almost 3,000 minutes last year. He broke down later in the season but he was asked to play thru alot and eventually broke down. His rep as a partier doesn't help when defending him but the guy did play a ton of minutes and played thru injuries.
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knicks1248
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8/6/2009  2:14 AM
There all rentals, and no ones asking walsh to deviate from his plan, I'm not asking him to give into nate, lee, or add any substantial $ to the payroll. .

But the flirtation with J will, Tins, and now stack are pointless vets who bring absolutely nothing to the table even if its for a week. I'm not at all against walsh and his chess moves, but let's get real, these guys are the absolute opposite of leadership or any kinda locker room presence, there not vocal (avery johnson) type role players.

When your looking at players essential pas s there prime, find me some one like a mark jackson, derek harper type, not bang bang shoot up tinsley, and party all the time duhon.

I like al and hughs, there solid players who can help win consistently when there's a leader on the floor, but don't ask them to be one cause it ain't happening and they make no one better by there individual play.

We have no pick next year, stinking up the joint this year experimenting with throw away rentals is not all at what we should be looking at.

And to be honest with you guys walsh may have minor interest in these guys and the media (who hang on to anything knick related ) may just be making this into more then it really is (except for sessions)

You guys are making it seem like I want walsh to make IT type moves and its just the opposite

That's mind boggling
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Bonn1997
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8/6/2009  4:25 AM
Posted by Cosmic:
Posted by knicks1248:

When you bring in Duhon, larry hughs, al harrington, the same guys that have either been in winning situatins and are veterens and still lose, what are you suppose to think. I mean look at the situation, Larry had not played in months, al had not played in months and duhon was a back up.

These players where done by the 4th qrtr.

If you expect these guys who have either age or dust on there asses to all of a sudden pop a 5hr energy booster and be able to run up and down in mikes system, ur kidding yourself.

These guys are not even solid rentals

Duhon was brought in as a rental and as an audition.
Harrington was acquired because he had a shorter contract than Crawford and also came in to audition for beyond his 2010 expiring.
Hughes was acquired to turn 3 roster spots into 1. TT/Mobley were acquired to trim Zach's 2011 to 2010.

These deals were not made with talent in mind. They were not made to make a run at the 2009 playoffs nor the 2010 playoffs.

They were made to push Isiah's contract mistakes out the door. They've done just that.

I think you're missing that little bit here in regards to those moves.

Yeah, I don't think he gets the purposes of any of those trades.
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8/6/2009  7:02 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by eViL:
Posted by djsunyc:

come on man...lighten up...y'all are way too serious...

it's ok to make fun of walsh's age and stuff like that. posting pics of him as an old senile man is pure jokes.

but walsh is doing anything but rushing. the only 2 moves he rushed on were trading zach and crawford and he may have waited too long on zach b/c of the rumored cap space/2nd round pick they offered first.

everything else he's done has been very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very deliberate...

and i know you know that's a good thing. you can do more damage with the wrong move here than you can do good with the right one. that's just by virtue of the moves that we can make. if this was chess, the knicks would be a sorry ass pawn that can't do nothing but move forward and diagonally (on occassion). next year, we'll be all over the board.

it really depends. if the guy is a smart gm, then making a quick move doesn't mean it's a bad move. everyone is scared of isiah part 2 but dumars and colangelo proved making a risky move can work out. and more recently, presti made some high risk moves that worked out as well. isiah's plan was not a flawed one but the guy making the decisions was a nutjob. the single one advantage the knicks have is money and they are not using it. but walsh made his choice so it's lebron/wade or bust. i really don't buy into the flexibility stuff when all the other free agents at that time could be found via trades (comparable players).

presti also sat on $9M worth of cap room this summer. that's called patience.

dumars rushed to trade Billups for Iverson and that blew up in his face and he's capped out again with no PG.

colangelo gave bargnani $53M when no one else on the planet would have given him $33M.

it's all relative, man. walsh has been patient and he's still got time and flexibility to make big moves in the next year. if you think that if we don't get wade or bron next summer that we aren't getting at least one major major piece, i think you are mistaken.

these are just the dog days of summer and everyone is antsy. i'd rather be antsy than have the knicks stink for the next 5 years because we spend $150M on Nate, Sessions and Dlee.

Good post Crzy.
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8/6/2009  8:14 AM
In the bottom of the article on the Stackhouse workout, it again mentions Von Wafer.

And I think this is where I am in agreement with the criticism some of these AARP courtings- and this is for Kidd, Hill, Stackhouse: I just don't think leadership turns this situation around. We need to upgrade the talent.

I'm all for not messing with the 2010 cap, even if I don't believe we have more than a 1% shot at Lebron - I'd rather be in it than not.

But, what about filling the roster with guys like Almond, Von Wafer - young guys that might actually be talented enough to make it in the league?

Because if we do get Lebron, we need to find some cheap talent to surround him with, because that is all we will have room for.
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8/6/2009  8:18 AM
Posted by franco12:

In the bottom of the article on the Stackhouse workout, it again mentions Von Wafer.

And I think this is where I am in agreement with the criticism some of these AARP courtings- and this is for Kidd, Hill, Stackhouse: I just don't think leadership turns this situation around. We need to upgrade the talent.

I'm all for not messing with the 2010 cap, even if I don't believe we have more than a 1% shot at Lebron - I'd rather be in it than not.

But, what about filling the roster with guys like Almond, Von Wafer - young guys that might actually be talented enough to make it in the league?

Because if we do get Lebron, we need to find some cheap talent to surround him with, because that is all we will have room for.

this is another reason why the development of gallo, chandler, hill and douglas is so important. we'd be able to retain them at whatever cost is needed tp surround lebron with (cause you know he's coming).
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8/6/2009  8:28 AM
Posted by franco12:

In the bottom of the article on the Stackhouse workout, it again mentions Von Wafer.

And I think this is where I am in agreement with the criticism some of these AARP courtings- and this is for Kidd, Hill, Stackhouse: I just don't think leadership turns this situation around. We need to upgrade the talent.

I'm all for not messing with the 2010 cap, even if I don't believe we have more than a 1% shot at Lebron - I'd rather be in it than not.

But, what about filling the roster with guys like Almond, Von Wafer - young guys that might actually be talented enough to make it in the league?

Because if we do get Lebron, we need to find some cheap talent to surround him with, because that is all we will have room for.

To this point, Almond hasn't shown much. His two seasons in the league weren't close to being successful. In the summer league, he looked decent, but a player with two seasons in the nba should be dominant in the summer league. I'm all for bringing Almond to training camp, but I'm not expecting him to make the team.
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8/6/2009  9:41 AM
I think we all want walsh tomake good moves and to take his time. My only issue is that I have never seen it take this long to sign another teams FA. I mean you might negotiate for a few months with your own FA. But team usually make a decision on outside FAs in a matter of 7-10 days. It seems like we have been "talking" to sessions for a month and still have not made a formal offer. And now we are considering stackhouse and j-will. I mean WTF. walsh make a damn decision already.
Trust the Process
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8/6/2009  10:16 AM
Posted by GKFv2:
Posted by subzero0:
Posted by GKFv2:
Posted by subzero0:
Posted by GKFv2:
Posted by subzero0:

Ahh so hopefully now everyone is starting to realize exactly what Walsh is doing to the Knicks. Is it starting to hit you guys yet? Still need more clues guys? We are being turned into perennial playoff losers... just like the Pacers.

That's right. We should have stuck to your brilliant plan of keeping Zach and Crawford and making a run to the Finals. What fools we are!

Where do you read that I wanted to keep Zach and Crawford?? Get your facts straight! I wanted Walsh to make smart moves with the players by demanding picks in any trades possible.

Next time you want to shoot of at the mouth you should go read up on my past posts dude.

[Edited by - subzero0 on 08-05-2009 4:58 PM]

Because those players were subsequently traded for picks, right? You know their value, right? You were very upset when Randolph was traded. You said he had way more value than what we got. Well I guess if you consider Quentin Richardson way more value then that's all fine and dandy. I guess Crawford netted more value than Al in Acie Law and Speedy Claxton.

So what?

If they're as bad as you believe than keep them and demand that any team that wants them has to include a pick. If there are no takers as you are ascertaining then fine, keep them on the team and watch the team sink. Then, because we hadn't moved any of our picks in the meanwhile, when we finally are bad enough we try to hit the jackpot in the lottery. That GKF is how you build a championship contender. Do you want to know how to build a year in year out loser? Make idiotic trades, sign guys that arent championship level players and watch every year as teams defeat you in the playoffs. Resting your hopes on trying to sign that big player is a stupid idea. Trying to land a big name in FA without a young drafted star doesnt work. It just doesnt work.


[Edited by - subzero0 on 08-05-2009 5:08 PM]

Wait, what? So basically you wanted to keep guys like Zach around for no apparent reason other than to lose and get a draft pick. How does that make more sense than trading him and his terrible contract for cap space? Build through the draft. That would be pretty hard considering we would take a major step back without a draft pick next year. So you'd be okay with losing for the next 5 years at the minimum in order to accumulate draft picks and hope you strike it rich with one of them and they become a star? How is that going to work? How is that a better plan than creating cap space by trading terrible players? And how exactly is "demanding" a draft pick for crap going to get you a draft pick? I'm really not following.

Make idiotic trades? We haven't made any.

Sign guys that aren't championship level players? That's great. Who exactly is signing here to win a title? I think they're looking elsewhere at the moment.

Defeats us in the playoffs? Well, that would be a step up from where we are now.

The bottom line is 2010 is one summer away and already I see negative nancy's crying about the plan sucking and doom and gloom. It is what it is. Why can you not wait to see what happens first before you blast everything? We tried the "cap space doesn't matter" stuff for 14 years. 1996 got us Allan Houston. I think that was a pretty good signing. 2010 can get us someone even better. You and I don't know what will happen. As for this "young star" to attract a FA, there may be one on the team but the bottom line is anyone is coming here because they want to play here and they want a chance to win. There is no difference between draft players and losing and hoping to sign someone and having a mix young players and veteran expiring deals and hoping to sign someone. It's the same exact thing. The team will still be a loser.

Yes, you seem to be having a hard time understanding, so allow me to help you. I am going to put it in plain english and add tables and charts and do everything I can to make this as clear as possible. If you are smart you will actually think and look at the long term (yes even if its 5 years) instead of looking forward to just 2010.

Below I have posted the past championship teams along with the mvp down to the year 2000.

Championship Team MVP
Los Angeles Lakers --Kobe Bryant
Boston Celtics --Paul Pierce
San Antonio Spurs --Tony Parker
Miami Heat --Dwyane Wade
San Antonio Spurs --Tim Duncan
Detroit Pistons --Chauncey Billups
San Antonio Spurs --Tim Duncan
Los Angeles Lakers --Shaquille O'Neal
Los Angeles Lakers --Shaquille O'Neal
Los Angeles Lakers --Shaquille O'Neal

I would have gone on past that but I believe this is more than enough to prove my point. Do you see a pattern here GKF? Notice that every team below started by building with the draft and then added a superstar after they had their drafted star? Ok now lets stop, phew I know that is alot for you to take in. You should stop here and take a breath. When you believe your starting to understand then continue reading.

The only exception noted below is the Detroit Pistons and that only is because they were able to collect players who were extremely talented and did not demand that much money. I guarantee you 9 times out of 10 that wont happen. As a matter of fact if you look at the long list of nba champions in this era you will be hard pressed to find another team like that. Even then, the Pistons only won one championship. When you are ready then continue to read... but only when your ready!

Teams that are not able to hit that star in the draft, scrap everything and go back to do it again until they get their player. Then they go out and sign a big name player to go along with the player that they drafted and then they are ready to try to win a championship. Do you have that down GKF? Maybe you should print this post out and keep it on you at all times. You can refer to it every now and then when you need help understanding how to build a championship team.

I have no problems with with moving Isiah. I have no problems with moving Zach and Crawford. But I do have a problem with the strategy behind it. Mortgaging our future on free agency is the wrong way to go. The overpriced signing will keep us bobbing on water with all the other teams instead of surpassing them. Dude every other team is playing the free agency also. All we really will be doing is remaining on par with most of the other teams out there, thus resulting in us becoming perennial playoff losers, yea, just like the pacers. I sense you are starting to become confused again, dont worry I wont have you read much more.

Moving Zach and Crawford had to only be about getting picks not clearing cap space. We should only worry about clearing space when we have that drafted player and we are ready, we are not ready yet. So now instead of playing bad players and putting ourselves in a good position to draft a really good player we are going to get non-championship level talent in the free agency go to the playoffs and lose year in year out.

Instead of building a dynasty to win championships over a period of 5 years we are going to be playoff losers in 2 years. Good plan, right GKF.

Please note: I believe this belongs in a thread of its own so most likely I will probably paste it elsewhere.
TMS
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8/6/2009  10:22 AM
bottomline is we need a franchise star to anchor the team if we ever wanna win a championship... whether we get one via trade, draft or free agency, we gotta explore every possible avenue we can to get it done, even possibly tanking a season away if you have to... u don't win championships in the NBA w/o a franchise stud... i can only think of the Pistons as a counter example to that & in their case they had as deep a pool of very good talent as i can remember on any team.
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knicks1248
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8/6/2009  10:23 AM
Posted by TheGame:

I think we all want walsh tomake good moves and to take his time. My only issue is that I have never seen it take this long to sign another teams FA. I mean you might negotiate for a few months with your own FA. But team usually make a decision on outside FAs in a matter of 7-10 days. It seems like we have been "talking" to sessions for a month and still have not made a formal offer. And now we are considering stackhouse and j-will. I mean WTF. walsh make a damn decision already.

According to most he has until 2k11
ES
BigC
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8/6/2009  10:44 AM
Posted by TMS:

bottomline is we need a franchise star to anchor the team if we ever wanna win a championship... whether we get one via trade, draft or free agency, we gotta explore every possible avenue we can to get it done, even possibly tanking a season away if you have to... u don't win championships in the NBA w/o a franchise stud... i can only think of the Pistons as a counter example to that & in their case they had as deep a pool of very good talent as i can remember on any team.

Agreed. Not only that, but if you want to win a title you have to have 3 star players. There are no teams winning anything with just one guy. If the Knicks are ever to win another title they have a lot of work to do. If you look at most teams that have won a title besides the Pistons they have drafted star players plus signed free agents or trades. We need 3 star players to reach that goal. Teams know that they have to be stacked to get anything done.

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TMS
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8/6/2009  10:47 AM
yup, u need a big 3, but first step is first, we gotta land ourselves a main piece to build around... can't build a team w/any identity until u land the player that u want to define that identity.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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