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Phil Jackson says Mike D'Antonis style CAN win in the playoffs!
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martin
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12/17/2008  3:00 PM
Posted by GallOfFame:
Posted by Knicksfan:
Posted by GallOfFame:
Posted by eViL:

All you have to do to see that the Knicks have improved defensively is watch the games.

Ok so we're playing better defense and scoring a lot of pts(3rd in the league) some players having career games every 3rd or 4rth game or so yet we're 4-8 since the trade.

My question to you is why?

Part of the answer is that, the trade. We are playing better now, but you know the adjustment period is a factor.

Also, take into account that the team is severely undermanned. How many times have the Knicks looked great in the early quarters of a game and in the final quarter had problems closing out teams? Yes, you can attribute it to inexperience in those situations or the above reason (team still trying to gel after the trade) but its also significant to say that the short rotation has an impact on how much energy and legs they have left to pull out a win.







Ok this gets back to the GM then who gets all this credit for being wonderful. Why not make room for 1 player that could be the difference between us being 6-6 or maybe even 8-4 post trade. Seems to me no one wants to place any blame on our coach, gm, players, or system but instead all on circumstances and lack of. We went through this with the past GM/Coach.

you think there is one player out there who has not signed with another team that is going to push us from 4-8 after the trade to maybe 8-4? WHere is this guy hiding? He is losing out on hundreds of thousands of dollars fooling around in the D league.
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islesfan
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12/17/2008  3:02 PM
Posted by Nalod:

YOu win a ring, you played better defense than anyone you played.

The goal is to outscore your opponent.

MDA avg'd 58 wins, thus out scored 58 times.

Low scoring Knick games in the 90's was a drag at times. The games were meaning ful but 78-74 scores were not the best games to behold.

Holzman's teams had the wonderful ball movement and great team defense. I thought the defense last nite was pretty good. The switches were very active.

Like Jackson said, there's a difference between the regular season and the postseason.

D'Antoni's Suns teams were 26-25 in the playoffs. 13-17 after the first round when their 58 wins couldn't guarantee a weaker opponent.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
misterearl
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12/17/2008  3:03 PM
Classic

"equally amazing how Pierce's defense has improved since playing with KG."

Imagine how good The Mayors defense on Kobe would be with Thabeet in the middle.

Amazing
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BlueSeats
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12/17/2008  3:03 PM
Have you guys looked at our roster? We should be a 27 win team. Instead we're playing .500 ball with sights on the playoffs. Is coaching really what's between us and a championship?
eViL
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12/17/2008  3:04 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Getting back to what Phil Jackson said, I believe it boils down to this:

"There was a lot of talk about that this may be something that would be effective in the regular season when people don’t have the opportunity to match up and defend against it, but will it be successful in playoff basketball?"

I believe that the optimism that people have from watching this team is due to the fact that D'Antoni's system is effective in the regular season. With the perfect players, his system can win 55+ games a year. With average to above average players it can win around 45-55 games. And with a rag tag bunch it can win 35-45 games. It's also an entertaining system where players can show flashes offensively.

But like Phil Jackson said, the playoffs are a whole different story.

D'Antoni never had his perfect players. What are his perfect players anyway? Do you think that if D'Antoni was coaching the Celtics that they'd be a poor team defensively? Do you remember the offseason when the Suns signed Nash? Do you remember that they went after Kobe first? If Nash was the perfect D'Antoni player, why was Kobe their first choice?
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Masterplan
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12/17/2008  3:06 PM
i think the most important "system" that couldn't win a title in phoenix wasn't d'antoni's, it was sarver's. can you win a title selling your draft picks for straight cash, letting good players leave to avoid paying a penny of luxury tax, etc?
Knicksfan
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12/17/2008  3:07 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Getting back to what Phil Jackson said, I believe it boils down to this:

"There was a lot of talk about that this may be something that would be effective in the regular season when people don’t have the opportunity to match up and defend against it, but will it be successful in playoff basketball?"

I believe that the optimism that people have from watching this team is due to the fact that D'Antoni's system is effective in the regular season. With the perfect players, his system can win 55+ games a year. With average to above average players it can win around 45-55 games. And with a rag tag bunch it can win 35-45 games. It's also an entertaining system where players can show flashes offensively.

But like Phil Jackson said, the playoffs are a whole different story.

I think the Knicks have already proved they can play the uptempo and also slow it down a lil and still be effective in offense.

Saying you can't win in the playoffs based on the Suns past failures is shortsighted because you have to analyze how good were each player defensively and how good where they collectively. As a group you could say they were mediocre-to-average at best. But individually none of those players were known for their defense.

You have to factor the players when analyzing how good or bad is the team's defense. You are trying to argue that its all the coaching staff's fault if they aren't good defensively and that is wrong. With more players capable of playing good defense, the overall defense will improve too because you have the weapons to play it.

For example, the Knicks were working hard and having a nice effort on defense prior to the trade. That was with Zach and Craw included. But of course we weren't stoppers. Just the fact that we at least showed effort improved the team defense a little compared to last season.

After the trade, the Knicks have looked even better on defense. Al Harrington, a good defensive player as he has proved to us, is part of the reason why. Nate is having more minutes and has had also impact on the D. The rotation we are playing may not be composed of defensive stoppers, but they are all solid in their assignments and that has traduced into better team D.

I think saying that Coach can't win in the playoffs because he has more focus on the offensive game is shortsighted because he does get this team ready to defend the other team. The Knicks have no big center, yet their interior defense has looked solid the last couple of games. They played Shaq and Bynum the best you can possibly play them with the current players we have.

It is important for the Knicks to get players that have "defense" on their resumé if they want to take their defense to the next level. The coach has already proved that he will have them playing hard on D and preparing them for the match-ups.




[Edited by - knicksfan on 12-17-2008 3:08 PM]
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eViL
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12/17/2008  3:08 PM
Posted by Masterplan:

i think the most important "system" that couldn't win a title in phoenix wasn't d'antoni's, it was sarver's. can you win a title selling your draft picks for straight cash, letting good players leave to avoid paying a penny of luxury tax, etc?

I wonder how these players would have helped PHX's championship aspirations. All were traded or sold for pretty much dirt.

Joe Johnson
Rajon Rondo
Nate Robinson
Luol Deng

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djsunyc
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12/17/2008  3:18 PM
Posted by GallOfFame:
Posted by eViL:

All you have to do to see that the Knicks have improved defensively is watch the games.

Ok so we're playing better defense and scoring a lot of pts(3rd in the league) some players having career games every 3rd or 4rth game or so yet we're 4-8 since the trade.

My question to you is why?

talent wins out in the nba - knicks don't enough of it yet...at least not enough to win games on the road or against the better teams in the league. they're in mediocre territory right now.
Knicksfan
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12/17/2008  3:19 PM
Posted by GallOfFame:
Posted by Knicksfan:
Posted by GallOfFame:
Posted by eViL:

All you have to do to see that the Knicks have improved defensively is watch the games.

Ok so we're playing better defense and scoring a lot of pts(3rd in the league) some players having career games every 3rd or 4rth game or so yet we're 4-8 since the trade.

My question to you is why?

Part of the answer is that, the trade. We are playing better now, but you know the adjustment period is a factor.

Also, take into account that the team is severely undermanned. How many times have the Knicks looked great in the early quarters of a game and in the final quarter had problems closing out teams? Yes, you can attribute it to inexperience in those situations or the above reason (team still trying to gel after the trade) but its also significant to say that the short rotation has an impact on how much energy and legs they have left to pull out a win.







Ok this gets back to the GM then who gets all this credit for being wonderful. Why not make room for 1 player that could be the difference between us being 6-6 or maybe even 8-4 post trade. Seems to me no one wants to place any blame on our coach, gm, players, or system but instead all on circumstances and lack of. We went through this with the past GM/Coach.

Donnie Walsh has been a revelation for most Knicks fans because he is doing what most of them have wanted for a long time: rebuilding. While many thought Zach and Crawford were untradeable, he got them banished and also got cap space for the famous 2010. He has given them hope and for that he is liked. Does that make him a perfect GM? No, but who is? The Marbury situation has been suspect and the Roberson signing, which didn't have to be so important, has turned sour since we've needed more from him and he hasn't delivered. Walsh isn't perfect but what is good is that he has a plan and he is willing to wait some time in order to get the whole picture right.

MAny could criticize him for not buying Marbury out already. Others for Roberson. Some even could wonder why he hasn't signed anyone to help the undermanned team. Well, there is a reason why some question but its him who makes the decisions. You don't just jump on things immediately. Donnie may have a plan for that roster spot, also for Marbury and Roberson. We just have to wait for it. Remember they want us to compete, but they also want to get the 2-3 year plan right.

I want new players as much as any other Knicks fan, but I understand that it won't happen immediately.




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Knicksfan
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12/17/2008  3:25 PM
Posted by GallOfFame:
Posted by Knicksfan:
Posted by GallOfFame:
Posted by eViL:

All you have to do to see that the Knicks have improved defensively is watch the games.

Ok so we're playing better defense and scoring a lot of pts(3rd in the league) some players having career games every 3rd or 4rth game or so yet we're 4-8 since the trade.

My question to you is why?

Part of the answer is that, the trade. We are playing better now, but you know the adjustment period is a factor.

Also, take into account that the team is severely undermanned. How many times have the Knicks looked great in the early quarters of a game and in the final quarter had problems closing out teams? Yes, you can attribute it to inexperience in those situations or the above reason (team still trying to gel after the trade) but its also significant to say that the short rotation has an impact on how much energy and legs they have left to pull out a win.







Ok this gets back to the GM then who gets all this credit for being wonderful. Why not make room for 1 player that could be the difference between us being 6-6 or maybe even 8-4 post trade. Seems to me no one wants to place any blame on our coach, gm, players, or system but instead all on circumstances and lack of. We went through this with the past GM/Coach.

About this, specifically, I have to wonder where have you been, since the last years all those elements, being the coach, gm, players and system, have been severely and rightfully blamed for the team's problems. Remember Isiah? His worst nightmare is being in a room with many Knicks fans and having no way out. Persona non grata in NY for the fans. Same with Larry Brown, for that matter.

The thing here is that its a new regime, a new system and even new players. Its a work in progress and so far the GM has been able to trade big contracts thought untradeable for cap flexibility. The coach has been able to take a flawed roster and turn them into an overachieving, fun group to root. Their main jobs have been done so far.
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GallOfFame
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12/17/2008  3:32 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by GallOfFame:
Posted by Knicksfan:
Posted by GallOfFame:
Posted by eViL:

All you have to do to see that the Knicks have improved defensively is watch the games.

Ok so we're playing better defense and scoring a lot of pts(3rd in the league) some players having career games every 3rd or 4rth game or so yet we're 4-8 since the trade.

My question to you is why?

Part of the answer is that, the trade. We are playing better now, but you know the adjustment period is a factor.

Also, take into account that the team is severely undermanned. How many times have the Knicks looked great in the early quarters of a game and in the final quarter had problems closing out teams? Yes, you can attribute it to inexperience in those situations or the above reason (team still trying to gel after the trade) but its also significant to say that the short rotation has an impact on how much energy and legs they have left to pull out a win.







Ok this gets back to the GM then who gets all this credit for being wonderful. Why not make room for 1 player that could be the difference between us being 6-6 or maybe even 8-4 post trade. Seems to me no one wants to place any blame on our coach, gm, players, or system but instead all on circumstances and lack of. We went through this with the past GM/Coach.

you think there is one player out there who has not signed with another team that is going to push us from 4-8 after the trade to maybe 8-4? WHere is this guy hiding? He is losing out on hundreds of thousands of dollars fooling around in the D league.



It's not like we've been getting blown out in all of these games. 3gms were lost by 5pts or less. Give the team another adequate body to spell the supposed exhausted 7man Rot maybe we win all 3 or 2 or even 1. The PHX game we lost by 8pts but were with them the whole night and the same in the PDX game where we lost by 7.
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12/17/2008  3:32 PM
Twenty-five games into the season, the experts have it all figured out. The Knicks are doomed. Don't dare to be open-minded. After-all, only one team out of thirty wins a title every year. Only four teams make it to the conference championships. So if you predict that the Knicks will never get past the second round with MDA as coach, you are playing it very safe.
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martin
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12/17/2008  3:33 PM
Posted by GallOfFame:
Posted by martin:
Posted by GallOfFame:
Posted by Knicksfan:
Posted by GallOfFame:
Posted by eViL:

All you have to do to see that the Knicks have improved defensively is watch the games.

Ok so we're playing better defense and scoring a lot of pts(3rd in the league) some players having career games every 3rd or 4rth game or so yet we're 4-8 since the trade.

My question to you is why?

Part of the answer is that, the trade. We are playing better now, but you know the adjustment period is a factor.

Also, take into account that the team is severely undermanned. How many times have the Knicks looked great in the early quarters of a game and in the final quarter had problems closing out teams? Yes, you can attribute it to inexperience in those situations or the above reason (team still trying to gel after the trade) but its also significant to say that the short rotation has an impact on how much energy and legs they have left to pull out a win.







Ok this gets back to the GM then who gets all this credit for being wonderful. Why not make room for 1 player that could be the difference between us being 6-6 or maybe even 8-4 post trade. Seems to me no one wants to place any blame on our coach, gm, players, or system but instead all on circumstances and lack of. We went through this with the past GM/Coach.

you think there is one player out there who has not signed with another team that is going to push us from 4-8 after the trade to maybe 8-4? WHere is this guy hiding? He is losing out on hundreds of thousands of dollars fooling around in the D league.



It's not like we've been getting blown out in all of these games. 3gms were lost by 5pts or less. Give the team another adequate body to spell the supposed exhausted 7man Rot maybe we win all 3 or 2 or even 1. The PHX game we lost by 8pts but were with them the whole night and the same in the PDX game where we lost by 7.

dude, the players that are out there are on par with Roberson. Who we found to be crap. Add 15 minutes of Roberson to our rotation and we lose ground not gain it.
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GallOfFame
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12/17/2008  3:39 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by GallOfFame:
Posted by martin:
Posted by GallOfFame:
Posted by Knicksfan:
Posted by GallOfFame:
Posted by eViL:

All you have to do to see that the Knicks have improved defensively is watch the games.

Ok so we're playing better defense and scoring a lot of pts(3rd in the league) some players having career games every 3rd or 4rth game or so yet we're 4-8 since the trade.

My question to you is why?

Part of the answer is that, the trade. We are playing better now, but you know the adjustment period is a factor.

Also, take into account that the team is severely undermanned. How many times have the Knicks looked great in the early quarters of a game and in the final quarter had problems closing out teams? Yes, you can attribute it to inexperience in those situations or the above reason (team still trying to gel after the trade) but its also significant to say that the short rotation has an impact on how much energy and legs they have left to pull out a win.







Ok this gets back to the GM then who gets all this credit for being wonderful. Why not make room for 1 player that could be the difference between us being 6-6 or maybe even 8-4 post trade. Seems to me no one wants to place any blame on our coach, gm, players, or system but instead all on circumstances and lack of. We went through this with the past GM/Coach.

you think there is one player out there who has not signed with another team that is going to push us from 4-8 after the trade to maybe 8-4? WHere is this guy hiding? He is losing out on hundreds of thousands of dollars fooling around in the D league.



It's not like we've been getting blown out in all of these games. 3gms were lost by 5pts or less. Give the team another adequate body to spell the supposed exhausted 7man Rot maybe we win all 3 or 2 or even 1. The PHX game we lost by 8pts but were with them the whole night and the same in the PDX game where we lost by 7.

dude, the players that are out there are on par with Roberson. Who we found to be crap. Add 15 minutes of Roberson to our rotation and we lose ground not gain it.


Pargo>Roberson
Fred Jones>Roberson
You>Roberson
Sperm>Roberson
martin
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12/17/2008  3:47 PM
^ thanks for that. Go sign them and win games!
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fishmike
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12/17/2008  3:50 PM
this season is already a success.

Accomplished:
Players listen to coach and play hard every night
No dissention in locker room
Worst contracts dumped with cap space in 2010
Able to evaluate real value of Lee, Chandler, Nate and Duhon in a normal basketball atmosphere
Players fitting into a system and a style of play
Culture and perception of Knicks is 100% reversed from last year

Thats before Christmas. I would say our current management should be extended some patience at this point
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
martin
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12/17/2008  3:57 PM
Posted by fishmike:

this season is already a success.

Accomplished:
Players listen to coach and play hard every night
No dissention in locker room
Worst contracts dumped with cap space in 2010
Able to evaluate real value of Lee, Chandler, Nate and Duhon in a normal basketball atmosphere
Players fitting into a system and a style of play
Culture and perception of Knicks is 100% reversed from last year

Thats before Christmas. I would say our current management should be extended some patience at this point

Isiah got extended for like a 5 game win streak.
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Cosmic
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12/17/2008  4:04 PM
Posted by fishmike:

this season is already a success.

Accomplished:
Players listen to coach and play hard every night
No dissention in locker room
Worst contracts dumped with cap space in 2010
Able to evaluate real value of Lee, Chandler, Nate and Duhon in a normal basketball atmosphere
Players fitting into a system and a style of play
Culture and perception of Knicks is 100% reversed from last year

Thats before Christmas. I would say our current management should be extended some patience at this point

Yep. I really can't see anything to be upset over given how management has performed.
The team is so much more fun to watch post Crawful/Zachass trades. I'm one happy fan.
Not only that we have a very bright future and a plan in place.

What's to dislike?
One can really only nitpick at this point. Gallinari's health concerns, Balkman moved so Roberson could be signed. Those types of ticky tack things.

At this point only Gallo concerns me. Hopefully that takes care of itself.
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12/17/2008  4:18 PM
Isiah built this team on Curry/Crawford/Marbury/Zach

DW dumped them all, got back Al Harrington and Tim Thomas, added a MLE guy to play PG for two years, brought in MDA and suddenly the Knicks are.. well a normal BB team.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Phil Jackson says Mike D'Antonis style CAN win in the playoffs!

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