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Memphis newspaper poppin s*** on Donnie and D'antoni's name
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Bonn1997
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9/13/2008  5:30 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bippity10:

The point of all this is, as a fan we do not know the details of what is going on no matter what they papers are reporting. So personally when I know I don't know all the facts I find it difficult to sit back and say our front office is made up of a bunch of idiots for not making a particular deal.

i will never call them a buncha idiots for passing up the deal for the reasons u just pointed out, but i will be very disappointed if Zach is still on the roster when the season begins.
I wouldn't go so far as to call them idiots for passing up on this deal. It's not that extreme an example. But if we're talking about not pulling the trigger because you don't want to give up a protected pick in 2012, then I would go so far as to call it a mistake.
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Bippity10
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9/15/2008  6:03 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by TMS:

i'm fine w/giving up another pick as long as it's got heavy protection (like top 15) & we can also nab 1 of their young prospects to make up for it... Crittendon & heavy protection on the pick would be fine w/me to get rid of Zach's contract for example.

I'm okay with somehting along those lines. I'm not for giving up a straight up draft pick and not getting a young guy in return and the pick not being protected. There is as good a chance as any that our own pick will be a top 3 pick as it is a mid 1st rounder. So the conditions around the pick are obviously very important in any deal.
Are you sure the pick would be this year's? I thought it couldn't be for a few years because you can't give up picks in consecutiv years and we're giving up our 2010 pick as part of the Marbury trade. I'm pretty sure it can't be before 2012.

Even if it's 2012 I think we need to be smart and not make assumptions as to what the position will be. I think you still have to play it like that pick will be extremely valuable to you.

Example: Say in 2010 lebron is a Knick. In 2010/11 Lebron has the knicks fighting for titles. In 2011/12 Lebron goes down with a season ending injury(ala David Robinson). Your team falls apart and you find yourself with a top lottery pick and in position to draft the next Tim Duncan and almost guarantee yourself 3 or 4 titles in the next 10 years as the two of them team up. Ooops, back in 2008 you gave up that pick so that you could get rid of Zach and didn't lottery protect it. Gotta be careful, you can't tell what will happen with these picks.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 12-09-2008 3:30 PM]
Hopefully we'll have had two major FA signings (2011 too) and two lottery signings (2007 and 2009) by then and won't be dependent on any one player. That said, there won't be a Lebron in the first place but the default in the NBA is for picks to have significant protection (at least top 5) and I'll assume that unless shown otherwise. Just like I assume any guy has two balls unless shown otherwise. Maybe that wasn't the best anology actually.

You'll assume because it fits your argument. But you have no idea what Memphis is asking for.
No, I assume because statistically the most common scenario should rationally always be the default assumption. If given no other information, would you not assume that someone driving a car is not blind?

Riiiiiiight.
I just hope that people will like me
Bonn1997
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9/15/2008  6:04 AM
Solace
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9/15/2008  12:36 PM
Seriously, why would anyone want Zach? At some point you decide that a good player isn't worth all the headaches that come along with it. This is the only reason we're having a tough time moving Zach. Otherwise, we wouldn't want to move Zach, to start with. Because of his long history of issues, quite frankly, the Knicks need to give up more in the trade than they should otherwise have to.

The article was pretty accurate, IMHO.

[Edited by - Solace on Sep 15 2008 12:37 PM]
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Bippity10
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9/15/2008  12:48 PM
Posted by Solace:

Seriously, why would anyone want Zach? At some point you decide that a good player isn't worth all the headaches that come along with it. This is the only reason we're having a tough time moving Zach. Otherwise, we wouldn't want to move Zach, to start with. Because of his long history of issues, quite frankly, the Knicks need to give up more in the trade than they should otherwise have to.

The article was pretty accurate, IMHO.

[Edited by - Solace on Sep 15 2008 12:37 PM]

We all know this. We all know that we will have to give up more to get rid of these guys. So the question becomes, do you do it at the first solid deal that comes along so that you can get him off the roster? Or do you wait, and hope to drive the value up and move him later. Now, most on this site are of the beleif that there is no way in hel-l that his value is going to go up so just get rid of him now before he becomes a distraction. That's fair, I'm not to sure he can either, but you have to understand that this view will shape your opinion of every deal that comes down the pike. They will all look good.

The reality is:

1.) None of us know the specifics of the deals. We don't know exactly what's beign offered and why deals are being turned down. We don't even know if Walsh is leaking these things in an attempt to drive up the base offering price.

2.) we don't know if Mike insists he can work with Zach, and said give him a few months to work with the guy before cutting him lose. In the meantime if a great deal comes up move him, but if not, I can make it work

3.) If Walsh is an idiot and is just passing up on gold.


Personally I'm with TMS to a point. I don't want Zach a part of this team. I'd rather have him gone sooner than later. I just don't think it's wise to jump at a deal unless you get what you want. If a pick is not protected you can't make it. If you are paying salaries don't be giving up picks without getting something in return. Walsh is in a tough situation, one caused by almost a decade of mismanagement. But he's been here 4 months, and we have a loong way to go. Unless you think Zach is going to destroy the young guys(which is a legitimate concern) I don't see the harm in waiting. That's just me.
I just hope that people will like me
Bippity10
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9/15/2008  12:58 PM
Too bad Isiah isn't a GM for someone else.
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nixluva
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9/15/2008  12:59 PM
I'm firmly on the wait for the deal you feel good about camp. To me there's no need to rush into a deal just to be rid of Zach. I don't think that his value can go any lower and I have a feeling that it could go higher if the team plays well. There's also the fact that his contract looks a little more palatable as money comes off, so at the trade deadline a team may be a bit more desperate and the contract looks a little better by then too.

I think we need to finally put a team together that makes sense 100% and not have it be a mismatched team, so Zach is a likely candidate to go. Still i'd go slow on that and just take a look at how things go to start the year.
Markji
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9/16/2008  9:47 AM
SO many want to eliminate Zach because he is a cancer, or a trouble-maker....Has Zach caused trouble since joining the Knicks?? (I was out of the country for the second half of the season last year so I may have missed something other than Starbury, Isiah, Anuchagate, Dolan, Mills. This is what I remember as the problems.)

Specifically, did Zach have any fights or heated arguments with other players?

or Any fights or heated arguments with the coaching staff??
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
Allanfan20
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9/16/2008  9:52 AM
He's complained about the fans a number of times, he got in a fight with Nate, in a huddle and threw water at him and he's gotton into a number in run ins with the coaching staff, a couple of them at games.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Cartman718
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9/16/2008  11:57 AM
Posted by Markji:

SO many want to eliminate Zach because he is a cancer, or a trouble-maker....Has Zach caused trouble since joining the Knicks?? (I was out of the country for the second half of the season last year so I may have missed something other than Starbury, Isiah, Anuchagate, Dolan, Mills. This is what I remember as the problems.)

Specifically, did Zach have any fights or heated arguments with other players?

or Any fights or heated arguments with the coaching staff??

the towel v/s water throwing incident with Nate. the taking time off for every relative that falls sick or passes away. offseason partying instead of preparing like the other people on the team have shown an inclination to do.
Nixluva is posting triangle screen grabs, even when nobody asks - Fishmike. LOL So are we going to reference that thread like the bible now? "The thread of Wroten Page 14 post 9" - EnySpree
franco12
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9/16/2008  12:20 PM
Posted by Cartman718:
Posted by Markji:

SO many want to eliminate Zach because he is a cancer, or a trouble-maker....Has Zach caused trouble since joining the Knicks?? (I was out of the country for the second half of the season last year so I may have missed something other than Starbury, Isiah, Anuchagate, Dolan, Mills. This is what I remember as the problems.)

Specifically, did Zach have any fights or heated arguments with other players?

or Any fights or heated arguments with the coaching staff??

the towel v/s water throwing incident with Nate. the taking time off for every relative that falls sick or passes away. offseason partying instead of preparing like the other people on the team have shown an inclination to do.

I'm willing to throw some of that out since 23 win teams tend to produce unhappy people. This team sucked, and a lot of that was Isiah's fault.

Still, the fundamental problem to getting the players to play hard is having to find room for both Curry & Zach- neither is ever going to be happy or productive when they are together.
Bippity10
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9/16/2008  12:56 PM
Zach is not a good influence and we should rid ourselves of these types of players, but I don't think he's been such a distraction that it merits dumping him at all costs immediately. Obviously he could prove me wrong this upcoming season. I personally think this team will be full of optimism come camp and most of the guys will be great soldiers. What happens when the losing starts is another question
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Markji
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9/16/2008  5:29 PM
Posted by franco12:
Posted by Cartman718:
Posted by Markji:

SO many want to eliminate Zach because he is a cancer, or a trouble-maker....Has Zach caused trouble since joining the Knicks?? (I was out of the country for the second half of the season last year so I may have missed something other than Starbury, Isiah, Anuchagate, Dolan, Mills. This is what I remember as the problems.)

Specifically, did Zach have any fights or heated arguments with other players?

or Any fights or heated arguments with the coaching staff??

the towel v/s water throwing incident with Nate. the taking time off for every relative that falls sick or passes away. offseason partying instead of preparing like the other people on the team have shown an inclination to do.

I'm willing to throw some of that out since 23 win teams tend to produce unhappy people. This team sucked, and a lot of that was Isiah's fault.
Bippity
Zach is not a good influence and we should rid ourselves of these types of players, but I don't think he's been such a distraction that it merits dumping him at all costs immediately.
Franco and Bip - These are my thoughts as well. That's why I asked if there was anything really bad about Zach's behavior since joining the Knicks. It doesn't seem so. Therefore no reason to go ballistic if he isn't traded immediately. If he behaves himself he is an excellent addition to a contending team that loses its PF. So I think Walsh is doing his job and doing fine. He has been shopping Zach to all of the teams. Got a few nibbles. But he, and we, can wait for a good bite!

The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
GKFv2
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9/16/2008  6:51 PM
Excellent addition?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lvYf08X6tc

This sums up his entire career.
Thank you, Rick Brunson.
Markji
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9/16/2008  8:17 PM
Posted by GKFv2:

Excellent addition?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lvYf08X6tc

This sums up his entire career.
I don't agree. What it shows is tremendously Poor Coaching!
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
Bonn1997
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9/16/2008  8:34 PM
Did he have poor coaching in Portland too under the same coach (Nate McMillan) that Roy and Aldridge are thriving under?
Markji
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9/16/2008  10:10 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Did he have poor coaching in Portland too under the same coach (Nate McMillan) that Roy and Aldridge are thriving under?
What the last few posts are addressing is did Zach cause a lot of trouble while on the Knicks? The responses indicate a few little problems, but nothing cancerous.

Nobody has said that Zach is an angel. He isn't.
The youtube video says to me that the coaching staff doesn't have control of the players. And no plan on what to do when time is running out. You don't have a Big PF dribble the ball upcourt and shoot from 1/2 court at the buzzer. This is the second highlight I have seen where Zach has done just that. If you wee coach would you have your team do that? or would you practice and drill it into them how to have the guards and small forward bring the ball up court quickly so you could get a decent shot off before the buzzer?

The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
Bonn1997
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9/17/2008  12:02 AM
I don't think Isiah told Zach to do that or approved it. Isiah sucked but you really think he had anything to do with that play or does Zach just have a mind of his own? We never see David Lee do that and he had the same coaching Zach had last season.
TMS
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9/17/2008  12:37 AM
Posted by Markji:
Franco and Bip - These are my thoughts as well. That's why I asked if there was anything really bad about Zach's behavior since joining the Knicks. It doesn't seem so. Therefore no reason to go ballistic if he isn't traded immediately. If he behaves himself he is an excellent addition to a contending team that loses its PF. So I think Walsh is doing his job and doing fine. He has been shopping Zach to all of the teams. Got a few nibbles. But he, and we, can wait for a good bite!

ask urself what good has having Zach on the roster done for this team? they regressed last year as if that were even possible... Eddy Curry who looked like he was finally gaining some confidence & putting up some numbers the year prior suffered tremendously by having Zach here... David Lee who many of us wanted to have the fulltime starting role last season was relegated once again to 6th man status when he should have by all rights had a full year under his belt as a starter... Zach had on the court conflicts w/some of his teammates & was clearly uncomfortable all season long playing here...

& last but especially not least...


After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Markji
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9/17/2008  9:05 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:

I don't think Isiah told Zach to do that or approved it. Isiah sucked but you really think he had anything to do with that play or does Zach just have a mind of his own? We never see David Lee do that and he had the same coaching Zach had last season.
I agree. Zach wasn't coached to do that. That is just the point. They weren't coached properly so Zach would NOT do that. Left to themselves, chaos rules. You need a strong coach to pull the team together.
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
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Memphis newspaper poppin s*** on Donnie and D'antoni's name
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