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Markji
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9/9/2008  10:47 PM
I'm glad Walsh is holding out and not getting fleeced. The deal with Memphis wasnt so great even before they asked for our 1st round pick. The other GM's now know they willl have to put a decent offer on the table to get Zach.

Also I hope Zach sees what's happening. He has his pride and this could get him fired up enough to "Show" the other teams that he is better than they are offering! Let's see what happens when he goes up against Warwick (4.8 rpg) or Darrell Arthur. I hope he humiliates them.

I still hope we trade Zach, but in a decent deal.

[Edited by - markji on 09-09-2008 9:50 PM]
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Bonn1997
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9/9/2008  10:48 PM
So what is it you are saying? That Randolph can't put up big numbers like I described? Because you have already pointed out that he can(bolded above)...
No, the point is the opposite: He can and has put up #s like that (at least for the points) and it had no impact on his trade value. As for the rebounding #s, I didn't realize you meant the increase would come from increased minutes; I thought you meant it would somehow come from him being featured more on offense, which made no sense to me. Now I understand your point. RE: Eddy Curry and 18 PPG: I never questioned that you can artificially inflate a player's stats. I questioned that GMs are gullible enough to then give up more assets to get the player.
nyk4ever
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9/9/2008  10:51 PM
Posted by GKFv2:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/10/sports/basketball/10knicks.html?ref=basketball

Trade is dead and Knicks will likely enter the season with this current team.

When Hahn tells me the deal is dead, I'll believe it. Until then I take anything with a grain of salt.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
GKFv2
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9/9/2008  10:52 PM
Uh, NY Times has the best sources out there. They are the Times. They never report anything that is false or misleading. This isn't the NY Post. I think it's time to give up on this idea. Obviously it's not happening.
Thank you, Rick Brunson.
oohah
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9/9/2008  11:19 PM
No, the point is the opposite: He can and has put up #s like that (at least for the points) and it had no impact on his trade value. As for the rebounding #s, I didn't realize you meant the increase would come from increased minutes; I thought you meant it would somehow come from him being featured more on offense, which made no sense to me. Now I understand your point. RE: Eddy Curry and 18 PPG: I never questioned that you can artificially inflate a player's stats. I questioned that GMs are gullible enough to then give up more assets to get the player.

Randolph can put up the points for sure, and he as averaged over 10 boards 3 times in his career. 1.5 - 2 boards more per game are not out of reach, especially if there are more boards available.

I'm talking about a slight increase in minutes and yes, inflating Randolph's numbers through his being featured on offense as the number 1 option. I do think that can be worth 4-6 points and 1-2 boards, especially playing for D'Antoni.

THe point is not for him to hit exactly what I described, but to get around there.

Are GM's gullible enough? Absolutely! All we need to do is wait for a need to arise. An injury, or somebody who needs another scorer to make a playoff push. It makes more sense to deal from a position of strength. Randolph's trade value has been higher before, it can be higher again.

I for one, am tired of getting raped on these trades.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
franco12
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9/9/2008  11:46 PM
if we can't trade Zach without being robbed, we need to try to trade Curry- we can't have both.

I'll agree with Fish that Zach is a better fit than Curry, and if you can clear him off the cap, its effectively close to what we were saving by adding Darko & Jaric.
Anji
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9/10/2008  1:09 AM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by GKFv2:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/10/sports/basketball/10knicks.html?ref=basketball

Trade is dead and Knicks will likely enter the season with this current team.

When Hahn tells me the deal is dead, I'll believe it. Until then I take anything with a grain of salt.

That's what I'm thinking. All these sources, hell even players in the deal are talking about the trade and they are all going off of 3 month old news??? Smells like a decoy story to me.

LOL we were getting the Clippers supposed talks about getting a second rounder for Zach and the cover up story afterwards, but this wasn't out there???
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Allanfan20
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9/10/2008  5:26 AM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by GKFv2:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/10/sports/basketball/10knicks.html?ref=basketball

Trade is dead and Knicks will likely enter the season with this current team.

When Hahn tells me the deal is dead, I'll believe it. Until then I take anything with a grain of salt.

It came from Walsh's mouth. The trade is dead.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Bonn1997
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9/10/2008  6:03 AM
Posted by oohah:
No, the point is the opposite: He can and has put up #s like that (at least for the points) and it had no impact on his trade value. As for the rebounding #s, I didn't realize you meant the increase would come from increased minutes; I thought you meant it would somehow come from him being featured more on offense, which made no sense to me. Now I understand your point. RE: Eddy Curry and 18 PPG: I never questioned that you can artificially inflate a player's stats. I questioned that GMs are gullible enough to then give up more assets to get the player.

Randolph can put up the points for sure, and he as averaged over 10 boards 3 times in his career. 1.5 - 2 boards more per game are not out of reach, especially if there are more boards available.

I'm talking about a slight increase in minutes and yes, inflating Randolph's numbers through his being featured on offense as the number 1 option. I do think that can be worth 4-6 points and 1-2 boards, especially playing for D'Antoni.

THe point is not for him to hit exactly what I described, but to get around there.

Are GM's gullible enough? Absolutely! All we need to do is wait for a need to arise. An injury, or somebody who needs another scorer to make a playoff push. It makes more sense to deal from a position of strength. Randolph's trade value has been higher before, it can be higher again.

I for one, am tired of getting raped on these trades.

oohah
What's the support you have for the idea GMs are gullible? What are some examples where a veteran's stats were inflated one year and then a GM gave up a lot for the player? Why did no one offer a lot for Zach the last time he put up the kind of #s you're referring to?
Ira
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9/10/2008  6:35 AM
If, by 2010 we haven't traded Zach or other contracts that would put us in a position to sign a top free agent, we can just buy Zach out then. We're not under any pressure to do this or any other deal.
Markji
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9/10/2008  6:41 AM
Posted by Ira:

If, by 2010 we haven't traded Zach or other contracts that would put us in a position to sign a top free agent, we can just buy Zach out then. We're not under any pressure to do this or any other deal.
If we buy him out it still counts towards the cap.
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
Finestrg
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9/10/2008  8:29 AM
What I can't figure out is both Donnie and D'Antoni have said they want to add a shot-blocker and they obviously like Darko's ability to do that - whether or not a deal ever gets done now is a different story...

You go out and get Justin Williams now for peanuts - here's a hungry young kid that will supply exactly what you need for a cheap price. This kid's just looking for a job man. More or less the same player as Sean Williams if you ask me. Sean's been the sexier name but to me they're the same player. Both are a little thin but around 6'9'-6'10", both athletic hustle/scrappy types that can block a shot and rebound and are raw offensively. Only difference is Sean's making about $2-3 million, this kid Justin will be happy with $700-800,000. A bargin for what he can give you. You bring him in and waive Malik Rose. Simple as that. Justin Williams would be great in spot duty for us. If it were up to me I would've added him weeks ago.
Paladin55
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9/10/2008  9:29 AM
Posted by Allanfan20:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by GKFv2:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/10/sports/basketball/10knicks.html?ref=basketball

Trade is dead and Knicks will likely enter the season with this current team.

When Hahn tells me the deal is dead, I'll believe it. Until then I take anything with a grain of salt.

It came from Walsh's mouth. The trade is dead.
Why do you think Walsh chose the word "dormant" instead of dead??!!

This reminds of the the Cold War years of the 1970's and 80's when U.S. analysts would be pouring over every word spoken by a Soviet leader to try and figure what was going on there. They would even look at where various well known figures would be standing in a photo or video, to determine whether they were in or out of the loop in terms of the Soviet power structure.

There is a reason why the word "dormant" was used, and it has to do with the fact that something considered dormant can still reemerge at some point or another. If the trade was "dead," he would have used that word, and therefore ended all speculation about it.

I think Walsh is just annoyed at the fact that bits of information, however incomplete, continue to come out of both Memphis and NY, and he does not want to negotiate a trade through the media.


This is how I see things.

I really don't believe that Walsh wants to enter the season with the team he now has, but he is smart enough to know that Memphis may be trying to play him for a fool.

I don't think Zach's value can get any higher than it is now.

If anything, Zach's value may actually go down if he gets fewer minutes, or fails to fit into the new system.

I don't think that the Knicks can put out a lineup with Curry and Zach playing significant minutes and hope to play any kind of defense.

Having both Curry and Zach mean that Lee, Gallo, and Chandler will probably get fewer minutes, and I think D'Antoni would prefer to see these guys playing more time than less. The Knicks have to see if Chandler and Gallo are really the future of this team, and decide whether Lee can play in the D'Antoni system and is worthy of a contract extension at some point.

The Knicks are desperate for a center who is a shot blocker and someone who can bang down low- things that Curry has not shown he can do..

At some point this team has to improve enough to make it a place where free agents might actually want to play. Part of this has to do with what happens on the court, but it also has to do with the perception, entirely justified, that the Knicks front office has populated by fools in recent years.


Hopefully Walsh has a plan and does not let us down. Hopefully the rest of the league understands that the Knicks are tired of being the herbs of the NBA.


No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities- C.N. Bovee
crzymdups
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9/10/2008  9:45 AM
I think this trade is dead. I commend Walsh from walking away from the table when Memphis asked for too much. We don't need to do anything rash. Rash decisions were what got us into this mess. Maybe we can rehab Zach's value this year or maybe he'll be easier to trade next summer when his contract isn't as long and certain teams realize they won't be under the cap in 2010 anyway. Walsh's patience is probably a good thing.

We weren't getting a single thing from Memphis that I would want to keep on this team other than the salary relief and even that was only a portion of Zach's deal since Jaric runs til 2011. That's not worth giving up a pick for. If we could have trade Zach straight up for Darko and gotten out from under the entire contract, I might give up a lotto-protected pick, but that's it.
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Bonn1997
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9/10/2008  9:56 AM
Here's my re-wording of your post
Posted by Ira:

If, by 2010 we haven't traded Zach or other contracts that would put us in a position to sign a top free agent...

then the plan would have failed miserably
kam77
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9/10/2008  9:59 AM
Having both Curry and Zach mean that Lee, Gallo, and Chandler will probably get fewer minutes, and I think D'Antoni would prefer to see these guys playing more time than less. The Knicks have to see if Chandler and Gallo are really the future of this team, and decide whether Lee can play in the D'Antoni system and is worthy of a contract extension at some point.
Realistically, Rookies and 2nd year players rarely expect to see/ get to see much time.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
Cosmic
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9/10/2008  10:12 AM
I'd speculate that that article is garbage released by Walsh himself to the Times.

Walsh looked like an idiot for not taking the Clipper offer and running. Then well after the fact a bullcrap story about the Clippers demanding a 1st round pick surface to make Walsh look good.

Same thing happened here. The Memphis side I believe: All they asked for was for us to pick up the 07-08 deferred payment which was easy to cover in the "up to 3M in cash" able to be used in a trade. Of course, another bull**** story about Memphis demanding a 1st round pick was leaked in order to make Walsh look good.

Also, if this deal was so dead a month ago why did Darko just a few days ago say he thought he'd be a Knick this week? Why did Walsh not crush the rumors weeks ago?

Yeah, things that make you scratch your head then realize Walsh is behind all this circus act in the media.

If I could talk to Walsh directly I'd have to tell him this isn't Indiana and Knick fans aren't this stupid.

Unfortunately though, some are, as evidenced by some reactions on some boards to this times article, lauding Walsh for not making a completely impossible fictitious trade involving picks and 25M in cash swapping hands, and then praising Zach Randolph as some sort of superstar in the process.

Yeah, this is pretty stupid from top to bottom and exposes Walsh as a liar to the media. What his motive is in doing this does not make sense. Those who are in love with Randolph or believe Walsh pulled out of some consecutive terrible trade proposals sicken me.

Those supposed proposals were unrealistic and no one would ever consummate such a deal from our end. It was also funny how those unrealistic versions were leaked well after the supposed talks ended.
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Bonn1997
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9/10/2008  10:14 AM
Posted by kam77:
Having both Curry and Zach mean that Lee, Gallo, and Chandler will probably get fewer minutes, and I think D'Antoni would prefer to see these guys playing more time than less. The Knicks have to see if Chandler and Gallo are really the future of this team, and decide whether Lee can play in the D'Antoni system and is worthy of a contract extension at some point.
Realistically, Rookies and 2nd year players rarely expect to see/ get to see much time.

What about Lee, though?
Bippity10
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9/10/2008  10:33 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by oohah:
No, the point is the opposite: He can and has put up #s like that (at least for the points) and it had no impact on his trade value. As for the rebounding #s, I didn't realize you meant the increase would come from increased minutes; I thought you meant it would somehow come from him being featured more on offense, which made no sense to me. Now I understand your point. RE: Eddy Curry and 18 PPG: I never questioned that you can artificially inflate a player's stats. I questioned that GMs are gullible enough to then give up more assets to get the player.

Randolph can put up the points for sure, and he as averaged over 10 boards 3 times in his career. 1.5 - 2 boards more per game are not out of reach, especially if there are more boards available.

I'm talking about a slight increase in minutes and yes, inflating Randolph's numbers through his being featured on offense as the number 1 option. I do think that can be worth 4-6 points and 1-2 boards, especially playing for D'Antoni.

THe point is not for him to hit exactly what I described, but to get around there.

Are GM's gullible enough? Absolutely! All we need to do is wait for a need to arise. An injury, or somebody who needs another scorer to make a playoff push. It makes more sense to deal from a position of strength. Randolph's trade value has been higher before, it can be higher again.

I for one, am tired of getting raped on these trades.

oohah
What's the support you have for the idea GMs are gullible? What are some examples where a veteran's stats were inflated one year and then a GM gave up a lot for the player? Why did no one offer a lot for Zach the last time he put up the kind of #s you're referring to?

Jerome James and Jared Jeffries come to mind.
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nyk4ever
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9/10/2008  10:43 AM
Posted by Allanfan20:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by GKFv2:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/10/sports/basketball/10knicks.html?ref=basketball

Trade is dead and Knicks will likely enter the season with this current team.

When Hahn tells me the deal is dead, I'll believe it. Until then I take anything with a grain of salt.

It came from Walsh's mouth. The trade is dead.

dor·mant Audio Help /ˈdɔrmənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[dawr-muhnt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
2. in a state of rest or inactivity; inoperative; in abeyance: The project is dormant for the time being.

Allan, that does not mean dead. It means Walsh is trying to play hard ball. Will something come of this? I don't know, but the deal isn't dead
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
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