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Here is a trade that makes the Knicks better
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martin
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6/18/2008  1:48 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by martin:
Posted by islesfan:

People need to stop pretending that D'Antonio was a prisoner to his personnel when he had tremendous input into personnel decisions, for Christs sakes he was the GM for part of his time there.

what moves or trades was he responsible for?

http://hoopshype.com/general_managers/mike_dantoni.htm

trading away rondo + sergio rodriguez for cash and future pick
signing marcus banks
signing eric piatkowski
extending boris diaw
extending barbosa

I see one move here. MLE for Banks. And ownership probably forced the Rondo + Sergio give away.

Boris and Barbosa have decent deals although Boris may be overpaid a tad.

Why was Banks signed? What was he known for?
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islesfan
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6/18/2008  1:50 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by martin:
Posted by islesfan:

Where is this proof that D'Antonio focused on team defense?

There is none cause none of us were in practice to see what they were or were not working on. Your take was that D'Antonio's teams don't play defense, which is also not true. he did focus on their strength's and personnel.

People who kept track of his practices say that they were short and sweet. I think they needed more work than that on their defense.

No, he focused on what he wanted to focus on for his System. Team defense had nothing to do with that System.


maybe he just felt that was the only way to play with the team he had there? Nash, Amare, old Grant, Old Shaq, even Marion - none of these guys have reps as defensive players. he was coaching to his personnel. we'll have to see if he tries to jam the players here into a system they don't fit in vs adapting to what he has.

also, people are always praising Phoenix for their medical staff and how healthy their players seem - maybe the short practices have something to do with it?

I would gather that their short practices were also in part due to the fact that they had no bench (picks sold?) and their playing style. Amare - knee, Nash - getting old, Grant Hill - old and broke.


So that explains it from Day 1? If that's the problem, maybe he should have played Banks.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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6/18/2008  1:51 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by martin:
Posted by islesfan:

People need to stop pretending that D'Antonio was a prisoner to his personnel when he had tremendous input into personnel decisions, for Christs sakes he was the GM for part of his time there.

what moves or trades was he responsible for?

http://hoopshype.com/general_managers/mike_dantoni.htm

trading away rondo + sergio rodriguez for cash and future pick
signing marcus banks
signing eric piatkowski
extending boris diaw
extending barbosa

And that's just as the GM. He had plenty of input as the head coach.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
bitty41
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6/18/2008  1:51 PM
In 2003 he traded away Antoine Walker who was a huge piece to a playoff team that went to the ECF the yr prior to him becoming GM

In 2004-2005 season Danny offered Tony Allen, Their 2005 first round pick, and I believe Raef to the NOH for Baron Davis. The deal was taken off the table in the we hours because of uncertainty from Baron and the Warriors side on his knee

In 2005 summer Danny offered Portland Paul Pierce, their first rounder, and another player I believe Perkins for the #3 pick in the draft. Portland agreed Paul Pierce didn't and killed the trade. Portland sent their 3 pick to Utah. Danny was going to draft Chris Paul. Go ask Boston fans about this

In 2006 he inquired to Mchale about Kevin Garnett and had a preliminary discussions about K.G. The same yr Danny contacted Phx to start a Pierce/Marion deal.

In 2006 he traded away the 7th pick for essentially what I feel was for the 21rst pick in Rajon Rondo to dump Raef's deal and get back Telfair and Ratliff

In 2007 summer he attempted trading for Allen Iverson, Shawn Marion, and Jermain O'neal and all deals fell through.

And you heard all this wealth of information from whom again? Reality check time: just because you spend 24/7 on the internet reading about sports does not make you an insider sorry to burst that bubble. Furthermore this is about deals accomplished NOT rumored moves. I'm not denying that he attempted to make some moves but for the most part his moves consisted of getting draft picks hoping for a superstar to rise out out the ashes. After that Walker was traded the team was full of scrubs mostly young scrubs but scrubs nonetheless.
Bonn1997
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6/18/2008  1:52 PM
Posted by bitty41:
You mean in a similar way KG current DPOY led the Wolves to a 27win team a couple seasons prior?

The lowest win total Minny had in recent years was 32 but thats not really my point. My point is that talent like Jefferson is just wasted unless Minny's management is going to aggressively pursue other elite talent otherwise who gives a shyt that Minny has Jefferson because they won't win jack. Mchale threw in the towel spin all you want but the records speak for themselves. Mchale is a lazy manager Danny Ainge was a lazy manager until the lightbulb went on that waiting around for great things to come your way isn't going win you ****. Hence the deals for Ray Allen and KG.
I think you've moved on to a different topic. Jefferson was brought up as part of the evidence that Boston did use the draft, contrary to Fish's statement, to build up much better assets than we have and pull off the KG trade. (No one was discussing how well Minnesota will end up building with Jefferson.)
martin
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6/18/2008  1:52 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by martin:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by martin:
Posted by islesfan:

Where is this proof that D'Antonio focused on team defense?

There is none cause none of us were in practice to see what they were or were not working on. Your take was that D'Antonio's teams don't play defense, which is also not true. he did focus on their strength's and personnel.

People who kept track of his practices say that they were short and sweet. I think they needed more work than that on their defense.

No, he focused on what he wanted to focus on for his System. Team defense had nothing to do with that System.


maybe he just felt that was the only way to play with the team he had there? Nash, Amare, old Grant, Old Shaq, even Marion - none of these guys have reps as defensive players. he was coaching to his personnel. we'll have to see if he tries to jam the players here into a system they don't fit in vs adapting to what he has.

also, people are always praising Phoenix for their medical staff and how healthy their players seem - maybe the short practices have something to do with it?

I would gather that their short practices were also in part due to the fact that they had no bench (picks sold?) and their playing style. Amare - knee, Nash - getting old, Grant Hill - old and broke.


So that explains it from Day 1? If that's the problem, maybe he should have played Banks.

you haven't shown anyone that practices where short from Day 1 or at any other time.
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islesfan
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6/18/2008  1:52 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by martin:
Posted by islesfan:

People need to stop pretending that D'Antonio was a prisoner to his personnel when he had tremendous input into personnel decisions, for Christs sakes he was the GM for part of his time there.

what moves or trades was he responsible for?

http://hoopshype.com/general_managers/mike_dantoni.htm

trading away rondo + sergio rodriguez for cash and future pick
signing marcus banks
signing eric piatkowski
extending boris diaw
extending barbosa

I see one move here. MLE for Banks. And ownership probably forced the Rondo + Sergio give away.

Boris and Barbosa have decent deals although Boris may be overpaid a tad.

Why was Banks signed? What was he known for?

Why didn't D'Antonio play Banks?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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6/18/2008  1:54 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by martin:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by martin:
Posted by islesfan:

Where is this proof that D'Antonio focused on team defense?

There is none cause none of us were in practice to see what they were or were not working on. Your take was that D'Antonio's teams don't play defense, which is also not true. he did focus on their strength's and personnel.

People who kept track of his practices say that they were short and sweet. I think they needed more work than that on their defense.

No, he focused on what he wanted to focus on for his System. Team defense had nothing to do with that System.


maybe he just felt that was the only way to play with the team he had there? Nash, Amare, old Grant, Old Shaq, even Marion - none of these guys have reps as defensive players. he was coaching to his personnel. we'll have to see if he tries to jam the players here into a system they don't fit in vs adapting to what he has.

also, people are always praising Phoenix for their medical staff and how healthy their players seem - maybe the short practices have something to do with it?

I would gather that their short practices were also in part due to the fact that they had no bench (picks sold?) and their playing style. Amare - knee, Nash - getting old, Grant Hill - old and broke.


So that explains it from Day 1? If that's the problem, maybe he should have played Banks.

you haven't shown anyone that practices where short from Day 1 or at any other time.

Sorry I don't have them bookmarked but when the Knicks hired D'Antonio a few of the beat writers made note that his practices were notorious for being short. Not that they became short but that he was never big on practices. Or defense for that matter.

[Edited by - islesfan on 18-06-2008 1:55 PM]
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
martin
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6/18/2008  1:59 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by martin:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by martin:
Posted by islesfan:

People need to stop pretending that D'Antonio was a prisoner to his personnel when he had tremendous input into personnel decisions, for Christs sakes he was the GM for part of his time there.

what moves or trades was he responsible for?

http://hoopshype.com/general_managers/mike_dantoni.htm

trading away rondo + sergio rodriguez for cash and future pick
signing marcus banks
signing eric piatkowski
extending boris diaw
extending barbosa

I see one move here. MLE for Banks. And ownership probably forced the Rondo + Sergio give away.

Boris and Barbosa have decent deals although Boris may be overpaid a tad.

Why was Banks signed? What was he known for?

Why didn't D'Antonio play Banks?

Nash: 35 minutes per game, Barbosa: 25 per; Raja: 35 per. Barbosa and Raja turned out to be better players.
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martin
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6/18/2008  2:00 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by martin:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by martin:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by martin:
Posted by islesfan:

Where is this proof that D'Antonio focused on team defense?

There is none cause none of us were in practice to see what they were or were not working on. Your take was that D'Antonio's teams don't play defense, which is also not true. he did focus on their strength's and personnel.

People who kept track of his practices say that they were short and sweet. I think they needed more work than that on their defense.

No, he focused on what he wanted to focus on for his System. Team defense had nothing to do with that System.


maybe he just felt that was the only way to play with the team he had there? Nash, Amare, old Grant, Old Shaq, even Marion - none of these guys have reps as defensive players. he was coaching to his personnel. we'll have to see if he tries to jam the players here into a system they don't fit in vs adapting to what he has.

also, people are always praising Phoenix for their medical staff and how healthy their players seem - maybe the short practices have something to do with it?

I would gather that their short practices were also in part due to the fact that they had no bench (picks sold?) and their playing style. Amare - knee, Nash - getting old, Grant Hill - old and broke.


So that explains it from Day 1? If that's the problem, maybe he should have played Banks.

you haven't shown anyone that practices where short from Day 1 or at any other time.

Sorry I don't have them bookmarked but when the Knicks hired D'Antonio a few of the beat writers made note that his practices were notorious for being short. Not that they became short but that he was never big on practices. Or defense for that matter.

[Edited by - islesfan on 18-06-2008 1:55 PM]

I don't have it bookmarked either but some other reporters debunked both of those theories.
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islesfan
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6/18/2008  2:06 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by martin:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by martin:
Posted by islesfan:

People need to stop pretending that D'Antonio was a prisoner to his personnel when he had tremendous input into personnel decisions, for Christs sakes he was the GM for part of his time there.

what moves or trades was he responsible for?

http://hoopshype.com/general_managers/mike_dantoni.htm

trading away rondo + sergio rodriguez for cash and future pick
signing marcus banks
signing eric piatkowski
extending boris diaw
extending barbosa

I see one move here. MLE for Banks. And ownership probably forced the Rondo + Sergio give away.

Boris and Barbosa have decent deals although Boris may be overpaid a tad.

Why was Banks signed? What was he known for?

Why didn't D'Antonio play Banks?

Nash: 35 minutes per game, Barbosa: 25 per; Raja: 35 per. Barbosa and Raja turned out to be better players.

Offense, offense and became more about offense than defense.

It's ridiculous to give D'Antonio credit for acquiring Banks when as the head coach he didn't bother to use him.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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6/18/2008  2:08 PM
I'm still waiting for anybody to prove that D'Antonio put any focus on team defense at all. I just keep hearing excuses about how he was a prisoner to the personnel that he had a huge amount of input in putting together.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TrueBlue
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6/18/2008  2:13 PM
Posted by bitty41:
In 2003 he traded away Antoine Walker who was a huge piece to a playoff team that went to the ECF the yr prior to him becoming GM

In 2004-2005 season Danny offered Tony Allen, Their 2005 first round pick, and I believe Raef to the NOH for Baron Davis. The deal was taken off the table in the we hours because of uncertainty from Baron and the Warriors side on his knee

In 2005 summer Danny offered Portland Paul Pierce, their first rounder, and another player I believe Perkins for the #3 pick in the draft. Portland agreed Paul Pierce didn't and killed the trade. Portland sent their 3 pick to Utah. Danny was going to draft Chris Paul. Go ask Boston fans about this

In 2006 he inquired to Mchale about Kevin Garnett and had a preliminary discussions about K.G. The same yr Danny contacted Phx to start a Pierce/Marion deal.

In 2006 he traded away the 7th pick for essentially what I feel was for the 21rst pick in Rajon Rondo to dump Raef's deal and get back Telfair and Ratliff

In 2007 summer he attempted trading for Allen Iverson, Shawn Marion, and Jermain O'neal and all deals fell through.

And you heard all this wealth of information from whom again? Reality check time: just because you spend 24/7 on the internet reading about sports does not make you an insider sorry to burst that bubble. Furthermore this is about deals accomplished NOT rumored moves. I'm not denying that he attempted to make some moves but for the most part his moves consisted of getting draft picks hoping for a superstar to rise out out the ashes. After that Walker was traded the team was full of scrubs mostly young scrubs but scrubs nonetheless.


First of all of them are facts and 2 of the 6 cited references were actual transactions that took place. I couldn't make them up if I wanted to but for you Princess I'll give a little teaser on one of the other cold hard facts of Ainge's aggresiveness...

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2008/06/05/moment_of_truth/?page=5
The Celtics tried to trade Pierce for Chris Paul the night of the 2005 NBA draft, but could not close the deal.

"I just had to go home and grow up," acknowledged Pierce. "It was a difficult situation. It was time to grow up, stop pouting, go out there and help these young guys out and things will work out. And that was my mind-set after the first year with Doc. So that was my attitude after that and I think that helped out my relationship with Doc and them wanting to keep me around because they saw the change in my attitude. Trying to get better as a Celtic regardless of the losing that was going on here."

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketb..._green/?page=2(must be registered to view link to boston.com)
The Boston Celtics very nearly dealt Paul Pierce to the Portland TrailBlazers in 2005 in exchange for the number three overall pick. Several other players would have been included in order to make it work financially.

"We were pretty close," Danny Ainge said.

Ainge likely would have selected point guard Deron Williams.


[Edited by - TrueBlue on 06-18-2008 1:15 PM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
martin
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6/18/2008  2:14 PM
Posted by islesfan:

I'm still waiting for anybody to prove that D'Antonio put any focus on team defense at all. I just keep hearing excuses about how he was a prisoner to the personnel that he had a huge amount of input in putting together.

Look again. Mike didn't really have much of an input into the personnel cause the only real piece that changed was Banks.
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islesfan
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6/18/2008  2:20 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by islesfan:

I'm still waiting for anybody to prove that D'Antonio put any focus on team defense at all. I just keep hearing excuses about how he was a prisoner to the personnel that he had a huge amount of input in putting together.

Look again. Mike didn't really have much of an input into the personnel cause the only real piece that changed was Banks.

Ummm, maybe that's because the roster was exactly the way he wanted it. Full of all offense, no defense type players.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
martin
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6/18/2008  2:27 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by martin:
Posted by islesfan:

I'm still waiting for anybody to prove that D'Antonio put any focus on team defense at all. I just keep hearing excuses about how he was a prisoner to the personnel that he had a huge amount of input in putting together.

Look again. Mike didn't really have much of an input into the personnel cause the only real piece that changed was Banks.

Ummm, maybe that's because the roster was exactly the way he wanted it. Full of all offense, no defense type players.

so which is it? He had a huge amount of input in putting it together or none?
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islesfan
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6/18/2008  2:33 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by martin:
Posted by islesfan:

I'm still waiting for anybody to prove that D'Antonio put any focus on team defense at all. I just keep hearing excuses about how he was a prisoner to the personnel that he had a huge amount of input in putting together.

Look again. Mike didn't really have much of an input into the personnel cause the only real piece that changed was Banks.

Ummm, maybe that's because the roster was exactly the way he wanted it. Full of all offense, no defense type players.

so which is it? He had a huge amount of input in putting it together or none?

He had a huge amount of input in putting the personnel together and by the time he officially became the GM, he didn't feel a need to change much if anything. That's the only conclusion that you can draw because if he wasn't happy with the makeup of the team, he had every opportunity to change what he didn't like or address whatever need he thought they needed to and didn't do anything.

The fact that acquiring Banks and letting him rot on the bench is your best argument speaks volumes and what D'Antonio felt about the importance of team defense.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
martin
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6/18/2008  2:54 PM
Posted by islesfan:

He had a huge amount of input in putting the personnel together and by the time he officially became the GM, he didn't feel a need to change much if anything. That's the only conclusion that you can draw because if he wasn't happy with the makeup of the team, he had every opportunity to change what he didn't like or address whatever need he thought they needed to and didn't do anything.

If this is the case, he was well aware that Marbury and Penny needed to go, had a heavy hand in signing Nash and turning him into a MVP, helped coach Amare into more than an athletic player, helped pursue Raja Bell the defensive specialist who tag-teamed Kobe over and over, helped get Boris and turn him around, got Grant Hill to sign for nothing, wanted the D of Kurt Thomas and Bryan Grant.
The fact that acquiring Banks and letting him rot on the bench is your best argument speaks volumes and what D'Antonio felt about the importance of team defense.

So, it goes to show that D'Antonio DOES care about defense ala the Banks signing?
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bitty41
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6/18/2008  3:02 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by bitty41:
In 2003 he traded away Antoine Walker who was a huge piece to a playoff team that went to the ECF the yr prior to him becoming GM

In 2004-2005 season Danny offered Tony Allen, Their 2005 first round pick, and I believe Raef to the NOH for Baron Davis. The deal was taken off the table in the we hours because of uncertainty from Baron and the Warriors side on his knee

In 2005 summer Danny offered Portland Paul Pierce, their first rounder, and another player I believe Perkins for the #3 pick in the draft. Portland agreed Paul Pierce didn't and killed the trade. Portland sent their 3 pick to Utah. Danny was going to draft Chris Paul. Go ask Boston fans about this

In 2006 he inquired to Mchale about Kevin Garnett and had a preliminary discussions about K.G. The same yr Danny contacted Phx to start a Pierce/Marion deal.

In 2006 he traded away the 7th pick for essentially what I feel was for the 21rst pick in Rajon Rondo to dump Raef's deal and get back Telfair and Ratliff

In 2007 summer he attempted trading for Allen Iverson, Shawn Marion, and Jermain O'neal and all deals fell through.

And you heard all this wealth of information from whom again? Reality check time: just because you spend 24/7 on the internet reading about sports does not make you an insider sorry to burst that bubble. Furthermore this is about deals accomplished NOT rumored moves. I'm not denying that he attempted to make some moves but for the most part his moves consisted of getting draft picks hoping for a superstar to rise out out the ashes. After that Walker was traded the team was full of scrubs mostly young scrubs but scrubs nonetheless.


First of all of them are facts and 2 of the 6 cited references were actual transactions that took place. I couldn't make them up if I wanted to but for you Princess I'll give a little teaser on one of the other cold hard facts of Ainge's aggresiveness...

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2008/06/05/moment_of_truth/?page=5
The Celtics tried to trade Pierce for Chris Paul the night of the 2005 NBA draft, but could not close the deal.

"I just had to go home and grow up," acknowledged Pierce. "It was a difficult situation. It was time to grow up, stop pouting, go out there and help these young guys out and things will work out. And that was my mind-set after the first year with Doc. So that was my attitude after that and I think that helped out my relationship with Doc and them wanting to keep me around because they saw the change in my attitude. Trying to get better as a Celtic regardless of the losing that was going on here."

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketb..._green/?page=2(must be registered to view link to boston.com)
The Boston Celtics very nearly dealt Paul Pierce to the Portland TrailBlazers in 2005 in exchange for the number three overall pick. Several other players would have been included in order to make it work financially.

"We were pretty close," Danny Ainge said.

Ainge likely would have selected point guard Deron Williams.


[Edited by - TrueBlue on 06-18-2008 1:15 PM]



this is about deals accomplished NOT rumored moves Hopefully we understand each other better now.
fishmike
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6/18/2008  3:09 PM
also getting rid of Q to add Kurt Thomas?

Seems like since he got there most of the moves were geared towards getting bigger and better defensivly
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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