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codeunknown
Posts: 22615
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5/27/2008  11:52 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by islesfan:



Why not, it's supposed to mean something because it's champagne worthy, right?

It is until proven otherwise.

[Edited by - codeunknown on 05-27-2008 11:14 PM]

I'm still trying to figure out what being "champagne worthy" is supposed to mean.

Try harder.

I'm trying really really hard. It still doesn't make sense.

To describe something as champagne worthy means thats it is or was a cause for celebration, a real accomplishment so to speak. As opposed to being trivial, mundane or otherise easily dismissed.
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
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islesfan
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5/27/2008  11:58 PM
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by islesfan:



Why not, it's supposed to mean something because it's champagne worthy, right?

It is until proven otherwise.

[Edited by - codeunknown on 05-27-2008 11:14 PM]

I'm still trying to figure out what being "champagne worthy" is supposed to mean.

Try harder.

I'm trying really really hard. It still doesn't make sense.

To describe something as champagne worthy means thats it is or was a cause for celebration, a real accomplishment so to speak. As opposed to being trivial, mundane or otherise easily dismissed.

And that has to do with coaching in the NBA how?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
codeunknown
Posts: 22615
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5/27/2008  11:59 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by JohnWallace44:

Well Isles, coach Popovich got his start as the coach of Pomona-Pitzer... but then, European coaching doesn't translate at all does it?

Oh well that settles it. Coaching in the Italian League is just like coaching in the NBA and any coach that has success over there must obviously have the same kind of success in the NBA.

The logic and reasoning astounds me.

You're astounding everyone with your logic right now. Are Italians dumber than the rest of us? Or is the game so vastly different in Italy that coaching and winning in the Italian league "shouldn't matter"?

If by "shouldn't matter" you mean "champagne worthy", then no.

By doesnt matter, I mean exactly "doesn't matter." Thats a direct quote, from the horse's mouth you might say.
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
codeunknown
Posts: 22615
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5/28/2008  12:24 AM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by islesfan:



Why not, it's supposed to mean something because it's champagne worthy, right?

It is until proven otherwise.

[Edited by - codeunknown on 05-27-2008 11:14 PM]

I'm still trying to figure out what being "champagne worthy" is supposed to mean.

Try harder.

I'm trying really really hard. It still doesn't make sense.

To describe something as champagne worthy means thats it is or was a cause for celebration, a real accomplishment so to speak. As opposed to being trivial, mundane or otherise easily dismissed.

And that has to do with coaching in the NBA how?


Since you decided to mock another poster's mention of D'Antoni's accomplishments in the Italian league, I countered by essentially asking why they should be dismissed so quickly. I think his accomplishments are champagne worthy - after all, he won in the Italian league. You responded by being confused. Then, you continued with a smokescreen - asking me to give you the name of a coach in Italy.
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
nixluva
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5/28/2008  12:25 AM
I think it's extremely early to have any bad feelings about the Waltoni Regime. They're respected by all and he only real issue is that some wanted to see this team turned into a defensive powerhouse. There's an assumption that somehow Walsh is just gonna forget everything he knows about BB and give D'Antoni a bunch of jump shooters. How come no one thinks about what kind of POSITIVE influence a guy like Walsh could have on D'Antoni? Perhaps he works with him to meld his offense with some defensive concepts and players who could make for a better overall product. I fall into that category myself. Walsh is too much of an astute BB mind to suddenly lose his marbles on how to build a good team. D'Antoni has lead the way in bringing a different style of ball to the states that as proven to be effective offensively. Now he just needs help on the other end of the floor and you'd have the best of both worlds. Imagine a guy like Tibideau on the staff. We already know Mike can coach and getting some help on the defensive end on his staff could be just the trick.

IMO there's much more reason for optimism than at anytime in the last 7 years. I'm even happier with this regime than when Isiah came on board. I'm not going to go crazy, but there's a greater chance for some success now than we've had in a while. 2 guys who have been WINNING more than losing over the years? ! We really couldn't ask for much more.
GKFv2
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5/28/2008  12:26 AM
I sense a lot of tension in this topic.

Don't worry, be happy guys.

[Edited by - gkfv2 on 05-28-2008 01:24 AM]
Thank you, Rick Brunson.
islesfan
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5/28/2008  12:31 AM
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by islesfan:



Why not, it's supposed to mean something because it's champagne worthy, right?

It is until proven otherwise.

[Edited by - codeunknown on 05-27-2008 11:14 PM]

I'm still trying to figure out what being "champagne worthy" is supposed to mean.

Try harder.

I'm trying really really hard. It still doesn't make sense.

To describe something as champagne worthy means thats it is or was a cause for celebration, a real accomplishment so to speak. As opposed to being trivial, mundane or otherise easily dismissed.

And that has to do with coaching in the NBA how?


Since you decided to mock another poster's mention of D'Antoni's accomplishments in the Italian league, I countered by essentially asking why they should be dismissed so quickly. I think his accomplishments are champagne worthy - after all, he won in the Italian league. You responded by being confused. Then, you continued with a smokescreen - asking me to give you the name of a coach in Italy.

Why are you so easily dismissing the head coach of THE Italian League Champions?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
codeunknown
Posts: 22615
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Member: #704
5/28/2008  12:40 AM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by islesfan:



Why not, it's supposed to mean something because it's champagne worthy, right?

It is until proven otherwise.

[Edited by - codeunknown on 05-27-2008 11:14 PM]

I'm still trying to figure out what being "champagne worthy" is supposed to mean.

Try harder.

I'm trying really really hard. It still doesn't make sense.

To describe something as champagne worthy means thats it is or was a cause for celebration, a real accomplishment so to speak. As opposed to being trivial, mundane or otherise easily dismissed.

And that has to do with coaching in the NBA how?


Since you decided to mock another poster's mention of D'Antoni's accomplishments in the Italian league, I countered by essentially asking why they should be dismissed so quickly. I think his accomplishments are champagne worthy - after all, he won in the Italian league. You responded by being confused. Then, you continued with a smokescreen - asking me to give you the name of a coach in Italy.

Why are you so easily dismissing the head coach of THE Italian League Champions?

I'm not. Why are you dismissing D'Antoni's credentials?
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
JohnWallace44
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5/28/2008  12:40 AM

Since you decided to mock another poster's mention of D'Antoni's accomplishments in the Italian league, I countered by essentially asking why they should be dismissed so quickly. I think his accomplishments are champagne worthy - after all, he won in the Italian league. You responded by being confused. Then, you continued with a smokescreen - asking me to give you the name of a coach in Italy.

Why are you so easily dismissing the head coach of THE Italian League Champions?
[/quote]

Wha?

Dude, part of the goal is to move the guys off of this roster. That means we have to increase their value with better play, higher scoring.

Now, what coach has exported more players and pumped up their value more in the last five years than D'Antoni?

I'm sure that Mike can improve the value of players like Jeffries to the point where they are at least tradeable without taking back a terrible contract.

If you can't admit he's a good coach, you have to acknowledge that players have increased their value under his time in Phoenix.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
islesfan
Posts: 9999
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Joined: 7/19/2004
Member: #712
5/28/2008  12:44 AM
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by islesfan:



Why not, it's supposed to mean something because it's champagne worthy, right?

It is until proven otherwise.

[Edited by - codeunknown on 05-27-2008 11:14 PM]

I'm still trying to figure out what being "champagne worthy" is supposed to mean.

Try harder.

I'm trying really really hard. It still doesn't make sense.

To describe something as champagne worthy means thats it is or was a cause for celebration, a real accomplishment so to speak. As opposed to being trivial, mundane or otherise easily dismissed.

And that has to do with coaching in the NBA how?


Since you decided to mock another poster's mention of D'Antoni's accomplishments in the Italian league, I countered by essentially asking why they should be dismissed so quickly. I think his accomplishments are champagne worthy - after all, he won in the Italian league. You responded by being confused. Then, you continued with a smokescreen - asking me to give you the name of a coach in Italy.

Why are you so easily dismissing the head coach of THE Italian League Champions?

I'm not. Why are you dismissing D'Antoni's credentials?

I'm not. Not in the slightest.

I've already said that he'll have them overachieve next year when they fail to maximize their first round pick. If you want a relatively entertaining pretender, then D'Antonio is your man. If you want to be a real contender (one that emphasizes defense and rebounding), then not so much. Italian League accomplishments aside.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
Posts: 9999
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Member: #712
5/28/2008  12:49 AM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

Since you decided to mock another poster's mention of D'Antoni's accomplishments in the Italian league, I countered by essentially asking why they should be dismissed so quickly. I think his accomplishments are champagne worthy - after all, he won in the Italian league. You responded by being confused. Then, you continued with a smokescreen - asking me to give you the name of a coach in Italy.

Why are you so easily dismissing the head coach of THE Italian League Champions?

Wha?

Dude, part of the goal is to move the guys off of this roster. That means we have to increase their value with better play, higher scoring.

Now, what coach has exported more players and pumped up their value more in the last five years than D'Antoni?

I'm sure that Mike can improve the value of players like Jeffries to the point where they are at least tradeable without taking back a terrible contract.

If you can't admit he's a good coach, you have to acknowledge that players have increased their value under his time in Phoenix.
[/quote]

I'll give you that point. D'Antonio's style will help to superficially inflate some players statistics which might make them easier to move.

But once you hopefully get past the point of unloading bad players and their contracts, it's about building a contender. That's where D'Antonio's system falls far short.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
codeunknown
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5/28/2008  12:55 AM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by codeunknown:


How many boards did the immortals - Nowitzki, Diop and Dampier - average for that series?

Phoenix was outrebounded by an average of 7.2 rebounds per game. Nowitzki averaged 15 boards in that series.

And? Like I already said, Nowitzki is a bad matchup for any team, even teams with players above 6-8.

That's a nice stat by itself but I'd like to see it in more of a context. How have the Suns rebounded during D'Antonio's entire time there. It would seem that a team that likes to run and gun and launch 3 pointers would be out of position to rebound more than most teams.

Would it surprise you that during that regular season, the Mavs outrebounded their opponents by 4 rebs a game and the Suns were outrebounded by their opponents by 4 rebs a game. Would it surprise you that every Mike D'Antonio team has on average been outrebounded by their opponents? Regardless of how many players they had above 6-8 in their starting lineup.

So your grand explanation is that the reason they were outrebounded is because D'Antoni wants them to shoot 3s? Isles, this is not one of your good moments. 3 pointers make for long rebounds and a greater opportunity on the offensive boards, whether taken early or late in the shot clock.

The bottom line remains that D'Antoni's perfect personel couldn't rebound and that looms large as the cause for their loss to Dallas. Having bigger players up front would without question have improved the rebounding deficit and given them a better chance to win. Ignoring the deficiencies, both with rebounding and shot-blocking (which I hope you don't think is overrated), in their players and blaming D'Antoni for some intangible reason is not very convincing.

If anything, D'Antoni's preference for the transition game helped negate the rebounding and shot-blocking advantage of opposing teams. He should be given credit for recognizing that the best chance of success for his imperfect players was to play uptempo.

I'm moved that you would consider it grand. You also left out the run and gun part where quick shots are taken which prevents the Suns from being able to block out effectively. That includes quick 3 pt shots. And just for ****s and giggles, I looked it up and Mike D'Antonio's Suns were constantly worse on the offensive glass than the defensive glass.

Since when is an emphasis on rebounding, defense or shotblocking a trait of a "Mike D'Antonio type player"?

"Imperfect players", that's the best way to describe the prototypical "Mike D'Antonio type player". Please don't make it seem like D'Antonio just played the hand that he was dealt in Phoenix and that that wasn't exactly the type of team and players that he wanted.

When you have a rebounding disadvantage, half-court sets allow that disparity to manifest. Uptempo basketball reduces the time available for position rebounding and boxing out on both ends of the floor - rebounds scatter more randomly, closer to a 50/50 split rather than a split that more heavily favors the bigger team. A lot of 3 pt shooting produces long rebounds and further negates a size advantage. Uptempo basketball also usually increases fg%, reduces the number of total rebounds up for grabs and therefore reduces the number of extra possessions for the better rebounding team.

So, again, D'Antoni's system helped cover their rebounding weakness in every way. And, still, they were outrebounded by 7.2/game by Dallas. You want to take another guess why they lost that series?

The bottom line is you can only blame D'Antoni's system if you feel the Suns underachievesd and could have performed better playing with different principles. You haven't come close to making that argument. The fact is that the Suns players were imperfect, and D'Antoni's style suffered imperfections because of it.
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
islesfan
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5/28/2008  12:57 AM
If those things negate a size advantage as you say, then why are you using their supposed lack of players 6-8 or taller as an excuse? You can't have it both ways.

And if their style of play allowed then to negate those disadvantages, then it's on D'Antonio for their being such an awful rebounding team despite that.

[Edited by - islesfan on 28-05-2008 01:01 AM]
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
codeunknown
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5/28/2008  1:03 AM
Posted by islesfan:

If those things negate a size advantage as you say, then why are you using their supposed lack of players 6-8 or taller as an excuse? You can't have it both ways.

The point is that the rebounding was a major weakness for the Suns in their playoff runs. D'Antoni tried to miotigate that, as a coach is supposed to do. Who's having what both ways?
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
islesfan
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5/28/2008  1:06 AM
I don't think the Suns underachieved. Quite the contrary. I think they performed as well as they could with that system and the perfect "Mike D'Antonio type players". They won games in the regular season but when it came down to playing playoff basketball against real contenders, they proved to be nothing but pretenders. That was their ceiling.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
codeunknown
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5/28/2008  1:06 AM
Posted by islesfan:

If those things negate a size advantage as you say, then why are you using their supposed lack of players 6-8 or taller as an excuse? You can't have it both ways.

And if their style of play allowed then to negate those disadvantages, then it's on D'Antonio for their being such an awful rebounding team despite that.

[Edited by - islesfan on 28-05-2008 01:01 AM]

Isles, given that I've frequently backed you on many topics, I'm a little disappointed that this is taking you so long to understand. Their style of play helped to mitigate the disadvantage. It can't entirely reverse such a major weakness, highlighted by the fact that many times Boris Diaw, of all players, had to play center.
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
codeunknown
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5/28/2008  1:08 AM
Posted by islesfan:

I don't think the Suns underachieved. Quite the contrary. I think they performed as well as they could with that system and the perfect "Mike D'Antonio type players". They won games in the regular season but when it came down to playing playoff basketball against real contenders, they proved to be nothing but pretenders. That was their ceiling.

The players determined the ceiling, my friend. Not D'Antoni. And the major players, for the most part were there before D'Antoni arrived. Thus, D'Antoni tailored a style that fit the pieces.
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
islesfan
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5/28/2008  1:11 AM
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by islesfan:

If those things negate a size advantage as you say, then why are you using their supposed lack of players 6-8 or taller as an excuse? You can't have it both ways.

The point is that the rebounding was a major weakness for the Suns in their playoff runs. D'Antoni tried to miotigate that, as a coach is supposed to do. Who's having what both ways?

Their lack of rebounding was a major weakness during D'Antonio's entire tenure with the Suns, if D'Antonio was trying to mitigate it, he obviously did a very bad job because it was a problem for all 4 seasons.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
codeunknown
Posts: 22615
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Joined: 7/14/2004
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5/28/2008  1:15 AM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by islesfan:

If those things negate a size advantage as you say, then why are you using their supposed lack of players 6-8 or taller as an excuse? You can't have it both ways.

The point is that the rebounding was a major weakness for the Suns in their playoff runs. D'Antoni tried to miotigate that, as a coach is supposed to do. Who's having what both ways?

Their lack of rebounding was a major weakness during D'Antonio's entire tenure with the Suns, if D'Antonio was trying to mitigate it, he obviously did a very bad job because it was a problem for all 4 seasons.

Is that the fault of D'Antoni or the GM?

On a side note, happy birthday. A truly champagne worthy occasion.
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
sebstar
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5/28/2008  1:24 AM
C'mon...man up hoefresh.
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
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