Posted by Uptown:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by Uptown:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by crzymdups:

oh, i forgot about peepee gate! man, brown is a card. i mean turd.


and, TrueBlue, that article says Brown initiated the Cavs contact. and I remember hearing about meeting Lebron in his office on gameday (while they were playing the Cavs. in the playoffs.)


he's all class, that Brown fella.



[Edited by - crzymdups on 01-05-2008 6:57 PM]

OMG!!!!!.

No we aren't citing Sam Smith as a credible source a flat out confirmed liar beat writer. I posted an article on Sam Smith from one of his fellow CT beat writers, who's essentially an understudy. In that article it spoke of how Smith goes about writing his articles, with several quotes from Phil Jackson stating he adds stuff that isn't there by how you respond to his questions. The same writer who was called out last yr on 2 stories he wrote, one of them lying on Jason Richardson of the GSW. It was so bad Jason had to address his family members and ball club over the article he wrote. He's a confirmed Liar who writes articles to be read. I believe the things that happened behind close doors weren't all good, most of which we all know nothing about. It isn't one sided as you are trying to paint it.

Once again all this drama of his closing moments in Detroit and yet he won 1 championship and came within game 7 of winning 2 in a row with the club. All of these embellished fables, well known before we hired him and yet we were all content on letting the snake bite us and call ourselves remaining mad and bitter because he did?

The snake keeps finding jobs, keeps producing good results, and when the snake slithered away from us things got better for him and worse for us. Man LB's VENOM JUICE CARD is lethal, at least I see how it's affecting your senses.





[Edited by - TrueBlue on 05-01-2008 6:37 PM]

The only thing I have ever read that was authored by Sam Smith was the Jordan Rules. Other than that, I can't really comment on the articles you mentioned. But what I can say is that most of what was said in Smiths article has been echoed in countless newspapers in numerous cities that Brown abandoned. Check the article I posted on page 2 of this thread by Ian Thomsen. Unless you have a problem with him too.

Fables? Embellished a little? Perhaps. But definitely not fables. And as far as Brown always landing on his feet after falling from airplanes, well, the Carolina blue blood runs deep in the veins of NBA circles.

Was there a Carolina connection in Philly? Was there a Carolina connection in Detroit? Was there are Carolina connection in New York? The stories you're referencing were already known before his hiring I don't get the point you're trying to make. Is it we set our own franchise back several yrs by hiring a known Snake? Are you saying every Franchise LB has been a part of is Scott Free of blame on how they handle internal matters? Are you saying LB will only manage to eek out 23wins with the Bobcats?

Brown has been coaching for over 30 years. ABA, NBA, and College. During his nomadic travels, obviously he picked up many contacts over the years in all sorts of basketball circles. His career started in Carolina, he even got his first gig at Davidson College, which is in North Carolina, but he didn't even coach a game there. He was hired in the summer and quit before the season started to jump to the ABA, thus beginning his gypsy-like run through basketball leagues. His Carolina connections got him started, Carolina Cougers of the ABA, Kansas Jayhawks which is Dean Smiths former school, and even Indiana with Walsh another N. Carolina Alum.

The other jobs he got along the way was gotten on his own merit of winning games and as I said connects he has made along the way. Isiah, King, Dumars are all young exects who looked at Brwon as a mentor. That certainly convinced them to reach out to him to save them. There is no denying that Brown is a great coach. But when you hire him, you are essentially making a deal with the devil.

You ask what point am I making by posting the articles. My only point was/is to show a pattern. Nohting more nothing less. I never said it was all Larrys fault in 05-06, I said both parties (Brown and Isiah/Dolan) are equal in blame for that tumultuous year.

Besides maybe Isles who is giving LB more rope than anyone during this discussion, name somebody in this thread who said Brown was devoid of any blame. You're summarizing history that's all, most of which we were all aware of before he was hired.

Posted by Bobby:

i could give a rats ass what larry lame does with the bobcats. the way i see it, larry is coaching to clear his lame year in new york. once he has attain a winning season larry will drift into retirement

Posted by BlueSeats:


By Jason Whitlock
Special to Page 2


To appreciate this column, you're going to have to first acknowledge you've been misled about what's really been transpiring between the Detroit Pistons and Larry Brown.

You think this sorry soap opera is another tale about Brown's wanderlust and double-dealing. Maybe you think it's a riff about his ailing body.

You're wrong.

Larry's history has played a role in this mess. But to understand how a team with back-to-back Finals appearances is likely to be playing next season for its third coach in four years, the truly enlightening factor is the Pistons' history.

Pistons owner Bill Davidson should share the blame for the turmoil in Detroit.
Pistons owner Bill Davidson, former Pistons president and current Palace of Auburn Hills president Tom Wilson, Pistons spokesman Matt Dobek and Pistons president Joe Dumars have so many media members (not all of them, but enough) in their hip pockets that I can't really blame you for being confused.

You've read the stories they've wanted you to read.

Larry Brown isn't loyal.

Larry Brown is a gigantic distraction.

Larry Brown's players don't believe in him.

Larry Brown wants to coach in New York.

Larry Brown wants to lead the Cleveland Cavaliers.

Well, today I'm going to share the other side of those stories, the side that Davidson, Wilson, Dobek and Dumars don't want you to read.

Larry Brown didn't ask me to share it. In fact, when I reached Brown Wednesday afternoon, he wouldn't discuss anything with me, on or off the record. Heck, the story I'm about to share is one Larry probably knows little about. He might even disagree with it.

Davidson and his right-hand man, Wilson, might be the most hypocritical, back-stabbing executives in all of sports. They could tutor Al Davis.

Brown isn't the first (or last) Pistons employee Davidson and Wilson have tossed under the bus once they've squeezed what they've wanted from him. Ask Isiah Thomas. Or Chuck Daly. Or Don Chaney. Or Rick Carlisle. Or Doug Collins. Or Jack McCloskey.

You think it's unethical or disloyal for Brown's agent to explore a management position in Cleveland while the Pistons are in the playoffs? You think Bill Davidson was justifiably offended?

Well, then, do you think it was unethical or disloyal for the Pistons to sew up a deal with Brown to replace Carlisle while the Pistons were wrapping up the 2003 regular season and playoffs?

Do some homework. Find out how Chuck Daly felt when Mr. D(avidson) hired Ron Rothstein as a radio color commentator during Daly's last season. Daly, who delivered two championships to Detroit, spent his final year on the Pistons' bench with his successor (Rothstein) looking over his shoulder and second-guessing him over the airwaves.

Oh, yeah, Mr. D and Wilson are all class. They demand loyalty and give none.

For weeks, we've heard constant reports about how Mr. D was "put off" that Brown flirted with Cleveland and spoke glowingly of his hometown Knicks. People reported these stories like they were some sort of crime against humanity.

If it was a crime, what kind of felony is it for an organization to make a habit of picking a coaching successor long before the end of the season when the coach in place hasn't yet been dismissed? The latest: Flip Saunders' name began to circulate among Pistons media puppets in February.

Around that same time, Wilson and Dobek began their assault on Brown's shaky reputation, trashing Brown to members of the media who couldn't wait to show how tough they are by beating up on a short-time employee.

Joe Dumars has constructed a great team in Detroit. But he's guilty in this Larry Brown mess as well.
A veteran Pistons reporter told me that when Wilson was president of the Pistons, Chaney and Collins suffered through similar assaults just before they were let go by sweet Mr. D. It was during this time that Detroit reporters tagged Wilson with the nickname "Teflon Tom" for his ability to avoid blame whenever the Pistons had to scrap one of his failed plans.

How did Teflon Tom become Mr. D's right-hand man? He oversaw the end of Mr. D's relationship with the greatest Piston of all time, Isiah "Zeke" Thomas.

Thomas was supposed to be a Piston for life. Late in Isiah's final season, the Pistons even held a Piston-for-life press conference for the man most responsible for Detroit's first two championships and the construction of The Palace. Isiah was supposed to get the kind of deal Magic Johnson has with the Lakers -- a piece of the organization, a fancy title and a fat check.

But guess who just happened to run into public-relations problems just before the deal was complete? And guess who benefited?

Zeke and Teflon Tom.

Yep, nasty rumors about Isiah, gambling and unsavory characters, as well as a premature leak of the news that Isiah was to be named president of the Pistons, "offended" Mr. D and ended their fairy-tale, father-son relationship.

Isiah was tossed out of the Pistons family, and Teflon Tom became president of the Pistons and The Palace. His official reign over the franchise ended when Dumars became the club's top executive. Wilson now operates from the shadows, but he and his flunkies are still highly effective.

Just ask Larry Brown.

Posted by BlueSeats:


By Jason Whitlock
Special to Page 2


To appreciate this column, you're going to have to first acknowledge you've been misled about what's really been transpiring between the Detroit Pistons and Larry Brown.

You think this sorry soap opera is another tale about Brown's wanderlust and double-dealing. Maybe you think it's a riff about his ailing body.

You're wrong.

Larry's history has played a role in this mess. But to understand how a team with back-to-back Finals appearances is likely to be playing next season for its third coach in four years, the truly enlightening factor is the Pistons' history.

Pistons owner Bill Davidson should share the blame for the turmoil in Detroit.
Pistons owner Bill Davidson, former Pistons president and current Palace of Auburn Hills president Tom Wilson, Pistons spokesman Matt Dobek and Pistons president Joe Dumars have so many media members (not all of them, but enough) in their hip pockets that I can't really blame you for being confused.

You've read the stories they've wanted you to read.

Larry Brown isn't loyal.

Larry Brown is a gigantic distraction.

Larry Brown's players don't believe in him.

Larry Brown wants to coach in New York.

Larry Brown wants to lead the Cleveland Cavaliers.

Well, today I'm going to share the other side of those stories, the side that Davidson, Wilson, Dobek and Dumars don't want you to read.

Larry Brown didn't ask me to share it. In fact, when I reached Brown Wednesday afternoon, he wouldn't discuss anything with me, on or off the record. Heck, the story I'm about to share is one Larry probably knows little about. He might even disagree with it.

Davidson and his right-hand man, Wilson, might be the most hypocritical, back-stabbing executives in all of sports. They could tutor Al Davis.

Brown isn't the first (or last) Pistons employee Davidson and Wilson have tossed under the bus once they've squeezed what they've wanted from him. Ask Isiah Thomas. Or Chuck Daly. Or Don Chaney. Or Rick Carlisle. Or Doug Collins. Or Jack McCloskey.

You think it's unethical or disloyal for Brown's agent to explore a management position in Cleveland while the Pistons are in the playoffs? You think Bill Davidson was justifiably offended?

Well, then, do you think it was unethical or disloyal for the Pistons to sew up a deal with Brown to replace Carlisle while the Pistons were wrapping up the 2003 regular season and playoffs?

Do some homework. Find out how Chuck Daly felt when Mr. D(avidson) hired Ron Rothstein as a radio color commentator during Daly's last season. Daly, who delivered two championships to Detroit, spent his final year on the Pistons' bench with his successor (Rothstein) looking over his shoulder and second-guessing him over the airwaves.

Oh, yeah, Mr. D and Wilson are all class. They demand loyalty and give none.

For weeks, we've heard constant reports about how Mr. D was "put off" that Brown flirted with Cleveland and spoke glowingly of his hometown Knicks. People reported these stories like they were some sort of crime against humanity.

If it was a crime, what kind of felony is it for an organization to make a habit of picking a coaching successor long before the end of the season when the coach in place hasn't yet been dismissed? The latest: Flip Saunders' name began to circulate among Pistons media puppets in February.

Around that same time, Wilson and Dobek began their assault on Brown's shaky reputation, trashing Brown to members of the media who couldn't wait to show how tough they are by beating up on a short-time employee.

Joe Dumars has constructed a great team in Detroit. But he's guilty in this Larry Brown mess as well.
A veteran Pistons reporter told me that when Wilson was president of the Pistons, Chaney and Collins suffered through similar assaults just before they were let go by sweet Mr. D. It was during this time that Detroit reporters tagged Wilson with the nickname "Teflon Tom" for his ability to avoid blame whenever the Pistons had to scrap one of his failed plans.

How did Teflon Tom become Mr. D's right-hand man? He oversaw the end of Mr. D's relationship with the greatest Piston of all time, Isiah "Zeke" Thomas.

Thomas was supposed to be a Piston for life. Late in Isiah's final season, the Pistons even held a Piston-for-life press conference for the man most responsible for Detroit's first two championships and the construction of The Palace. Isiah was supposed to get the kind of deal Magic Johnson has with the Lakers -- a piece of the organization, a fancy title and a fat check.

But guess who just happened to run into public-relations problems just before the deal was complete? And guess who benefited?

Zeke and Teflon Tom.

Yep, nasty rumors about Isiah, gambling and unsavory characters, as well as a premature leak of the news that Isiah was to be named president of the Pistons, "offended" Mr. D and ended their fairy-tale, father-son relationship.

Isiah was tossed out of the Pistons family, and Teflon Tom became president of the Pistons and The Palace. His official reign over the franchise ended when Dumars became the club's top executive. Wilson now operates from the shadows, but he and his flunkies are still highly effective.

Just ask Larry Brown.

Posted by BlueSeats:

If there is one thing we don't need a search feature for on this site it's to see how optimistic a poster was about the Knicks heading into the 2005-06 season. Just look at their feeling on Brown. The more you believed in Isiah and Steph, the more you hate Larry Brown today. The more you defend Brown today, the more you saw the dysfunction in the organization at the time.

I don't know why Brown's "character" is even a topic of debate. We know he's got a reputation for drama - he did long before coming here. But you don't fly the owner out to meet him, make videos of him raising championship banners to the rafters, bring Knicks paraphenalia to his kids, bring the best public and private school reports to his wife, etc, and offer him the biggest coaching contract in history, if what you want is a personable "yes man". Hire Herb for that, or leave Chaney in place without humiliating him.

You bring in Brown to turn things around, and he does this for you whether you like him or not. That is just what he does... EVERYWHERE... but here.

What the Brown bashers have never quite accepted is that the reason he couldn't succeed here wasn't because Brown is "not a nice man," it's because others in this organization wanted him to be something other than he was. They courted and wood him because he's Larry Brown, but then they wanted him to coach politely, like Herb Williams.

It just didn't make sense from the start.

Didn't matter if it were Larry, Phil, Popavich or Riley; so long as Dolan, Isiah and Marbury where allowed to put their egos ahead of the franchise, and in the way of the coach, progress could not be made.

The proper choice at the time would have been Herb. But now, with new management, many more options are viable.

[Edited by - blueseats on 05-02-2008 2:08 PM]

Posted by BlueSeats:

If there is one thing we don't need a search feature for on this site it's to see how optimistic a poster was about the Knicks heading into the 2005-06 season. Just look at their feeling on Brown. The more you believed in Isiah and Steph, the more you hate Larry Brown today. The more you defend Brown today, the more you saw the dysfunction in the organization at the time.

I don't know why Brown's "character" is even a topic of debate. We know he's got a reputation for drama - he did long before coming here. But you don't fly the owner out to meet him, make videos of him raising championship banners to the rafters, bring Knicks paraphenalia to his kids, bring the best public and private school reports to his wife, etc, and offer him the biggest coaching contract in history, if what you want is a personable "yes man". Hire Herb for that, or leave Chaney in place without humiliating him.

You bring in Brown to turn things around, and he does this for you whether you like him or not. That is just what he does... EVERYWHERE... but here.

What the Brown bashers have never quite accepted is that the reason he couldn't succeed here wasn't because Brown is "not a nice man," it's because others in this organization wanted him to be something other than he was. They courted and wood him because he's Larry Brown, but then they wanted him to coach politely, like Herb Williams.

It just didn't make sense from the start.

Didn't matter if it were Larry, Phil, Popavich or Riley; so long as Dolan, Isiah and Marbury where allowed to put their egos ahead of the franchise, and in the way of the coach, progress could not be made.

The proper choice at the time would have been Herb. But now, with new management, many more options are viable.

[Edited by - blueseats on 05-02-2008 2:08 PM]

Larry brown just like Bill parcells is a guy who will get results, but things have to be done his way with complete support. These men are great because they won't copromise and if they feel that they don't have 100% support or that they may have to compromise, they will seek employment elsewhere... I am not saying brown does not have his issues but you can't argue with his success and what happened in NY with brown was less brown and more of Isaiah and this horrible franchise... Listen, this franchise chased two HOF coaches away.. Lenny wilkens and Larry brown... Two guys who know more about basketball than anyone in this knicks organization... we are not brown nosing, but hell, to say he threw the season is not true. Could he have done a better job coaching? yes, he admitted that, but brown is not about coaching to get 33 wins instead of 23. Brown coaches to teach and build up.. that was not happenning under the circumstances in NY... And when Isiah stood by and let the marbury feud go on, Brown knew he was doomed... He may have quit on the team, but at that point, how could you blame him. Maybe if he would have quit, ala jeff van gundy, he would not have been blamed for that mess....

That’s true. I’d like to add some things people forgot :
- Isiah Thomas was coming of a disappointing 33 wins season when he hired Larry Brown. He was ordered by Jimmy Dolan to hire either Phil Jackson or Larry Brown. Larry wasn’t really his choice. Considering how Isiah Thomas built the team (Isiah said he was trying to copycat the Suns when he traded for Q only two months before hiring LB) and how LB and Thomas were on opposite directions (Isiah was in win now mode while LB always want to build a team his way, no matter how much time it takes). A clash between Brown and Thomas was expected.
-.Only a few weeks after inking LB to a contract, Isiah Thomas traded for Eddy Curry during training camp (not exactly the kind of player Brown likes to coach), he traded away our draft pick, thus putting a lot of pressure on the Knicks and LB to make the playoffs while we all know LB has a difficult first season as head coach when he takes a rebuilding project with lot of work to do
- The team had a 6 game winning streak in January then Marbury got injured and the Knicks started a painful losing streak. What did Isiah do ? He traded for Rose and Francis and got rid of the only Brown player : Antonio Davis. People complain about LB’s 42 line-ups, I agree it's crazy to experiment that much and Brown was out of his mind but it’s pretty difficult to define a roster when your GM brings 3 starting caliber players during your first 6 months as head coach ! That said the 42 line-ups tend to prove Brown did a really bad job but also prove he didn't really tank on purpose. If he wanted to tank to get Isiah fired, obviously he's not stupid, he could havereached 23 wins by playing the same roster every game. Let's not act like our roster was so good that it was impossible to lose 59 games. It wasn't impossible and it happened twice ! Once with Brown and once with Thomas.
Larry Brown inherited of a completely different team with several newly acquired players : Quentin Richardson and Nate Robinson (Kurt Thomas trade), Channing Frye and David Lee (draft picks), Jerome James (free agent), Eddy Curry and Antonio Davis (trade), Jalen Rose (trade), Steve Francis (trade). There’s also Jackie Butler who was signed only 3 weeks before the end of the previous season. That’s almost 10 new players, including 3 rookies and a sophomore. And you’re supposed to make that work in only a few weeks ?
Larry Brown inherited of a backcourt (Marbury and Crawford) but the frontline was totally revamped with Richardson, Frye/Lee/Davis and Curry/James/Butler.
- After the All Star break, Larry Brown stupidly started a public feud with Stephon Marbury and he didn’t get any help from his boss. Brown got zero support from Thomas in his feud with Marbury.
- During Isiah’s tenure as GM, only one coach was lucky enough to have 2 full seasons to right the ship : Isiah Thomas ! Don Chaney stayed for about 5 weeks and was replaced by Lenny Wilkens who was released after only one year. Herb Williams took over as head coach for 6 months. Then Larry Brown was hired and fired after only 9 months on the job.


It’s quite obvious Larry Brown did a bad job coaching the team during the 2005-2006 season but it’s also obvious he was helped and set up to fail. Let's not act like Thomas was a Saint and did everything to make the realtionship work. I don't even blame Thomas on his feud with Brown. Dolan is at fault here for pairing Brown with Thomas. If he wanted Brown, he should have fired Thomas. And if he wanted Thomas to remain the GM, he should have let him pick the coach himself. First he ordered Isiah to hire Brown or Jackson then he wanted Isiah to coach the team while he didn't seem to want that.
Larry Brown gave up towards the end of the season. He tried to reach Jimmy Dolan but he was told to go through Isiah Thomas, his boss.
I think that’s where the season ended. After that, during the last 6 weeks of the season, it’s obvious Brown didn’t care much and was trying to be fired. He knew very well he would alienate Dolan when he did his road side interviews. When he got no support from the front office during his public feud with Marbury and his authority was undermined, he knew it was the end and there was nothing he could do


As you said, Larry Brown is a HoF coach but he comes with baggage and the whole league knows it. I always laugh when I see comments like “how could Isiah know Brown would act like that ?”. Hello : Larry Brown was fired from the Pistons because he supposedly wanted two starters traded and he had talks with the Cavs during the NBA Finals (he put his interest before the team’s best interests). We don’t really know if those allegations are true but if they are, you think Isiah Thomas didn’t know that ? The GM of the Pistons is Joe Dumars. One of Isiah’s best friends ! Isiah Thomas knew very well who he hired and he knew very well how to protect his job.


This year Isiah Thomas also ended the season with 23 wins, he clashed with Marbury and he didn’t resign. Just like Brown, he tried hard to keep his salary. He’s willing to remain as a special consultant to Donnie Walsh as long as he’s still paid his hefty paycheck. And this guy is not self centered and supposed to be looking at the best interests of the franchise ? LOL
Larry Brown acknowledged he did a bad job in NY and only blamed himself for his failure while Isiah was still selling his BS at the end of the season and was still trying to sell the fans the team was good, we were on the right track and it was his only bad season in NY.
If Larry Brown is a snake I don’t know how we can qualify Thomas.
I’ve never seen a man making up so many excuses, putting the blame on everyone else except himself, trying so hard to keep his job and doing his personal PR till the end.
When a GM talks trash about his own franchise ( “you haven’t been proud since 1973”) and disrespect the team that went to the Finals in 1994 and 1999, you know he’s not taking the team’s best interests at heart.

Thomas seem to be the complete opposite of LB : Isiah is trying hard to remain with the Knicks no matter how poorly he performed as GM and coach while Larry Brown was looking to leave the Pistons after back to back NBA Finals.

Funny isn't it ?

Kos I don't know how much of this thread you read but I touched on Phil Jackson on page 5 and I believe the end of page 4. Never was addressed by the LB haters thoroughly on the comparison and neither will your post. I agree with everything you stated though.

You managed to be one step ahead of me on the angle of why the Haters are so mad at LB. I was going to share my thought before the night ended that complements what you said, but has a little bit different slant.

We finished 23-59 in 2005-2006 and had the 4rth pick in the draft. We had at our disposal Roy, Gay, Tyrus Thomas, Rondo(reach that high but available nonetheless), and maybe even Aldridge since he was swapped in a #4 for #2 trade. Who knows what could have transpired via trade if we outright gave up the pick on draft night for an impact player or future first round pick(s)....But guess what we actually didn't have our pick because of who? That's right, idiot I SAY UGH made possibly the worst trade in NBA History by acquiring Curry and giving away first round unprotected picks to Chicago.

So I SAY UGH get's a free pass for the time being making this trade, because let's not forget I SAY UGH lovers, at least at the time, thought like the one they admired in that Curry was going to be better than anyone from the 2006 and 2007 draft so no big deal I SAY UGH gave up the pick(s). Since he did this whose shoulders did it fall on to make sure the pick(s) we gave up weren't going to be a high ones? Not Curry,... Not I SAY UGH,... Not the team collectively... NO the one and only hero had to be LB.

There's no doubt in my mind if we actually owned our pick that yr our fans would have created a special separate HOF for TANKERS and inducted LB into it faster than the speed of light. He would have been deified for his results.

Those 42 different starting line-ups would have been cheered on for a hopeful 43 or more. These fans would have wanted LB to shatter the season W-L record so comfortably, it could never be touched again. But this wasn't the case, we had to give up the pick so our fans wanted to turn LB over to Pontius Pilate to be impaled.

Since these fans have the mindset LB set us back well guess what, this meant next season's failures were going to be LB's fault too. So by season's end, the following yr more death penalty votes from our fan base towards LB, because once again we had to give up a pick.

So the past 2 seasons our fan base had been fending off Bulls fans and wanted the last laugh more than anything validation so to speak, if we had finished both seasons better... recordwise.

This is the real reason why I feel the fans are upset at LB

Most of the fan base had us at best making the playoffs in 2005-2006 as an 8th seed. So there was a chance most were accepting the fact we wouldn't make the playoffs or win as much as preferred, but nevertheless you're dead on with your thought because all would have been forgiven if the end result was an 8th seed.

I like the pontius Pilate refrence.. Now I know we won't dare compare this situation to that of Jesus, so I don't want people to go overboard accusing us of that, but it is funny, How the angry mob(knicks fans) are so willing to turn brown over, yet like the mob back in that day, were so upset they were willing to turn lose a known criminal.... In this case, we all know who the criminal is.. LOL.. (Isiah).. hahahahaha.. heck, what he did to the knicks was damn near criminal.

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by BlueSeats:

If there is one thing we don't need a search feature for on this site it's to see how optimistic a poster was about the Knicks heading into the 2005-06 season. Just look at their feeling on Brown. The more you believed in Isiah and Steph, the more you hate Larry Brown today. The more you defend Brown today, the more you saw the dysfunction in the organization at the time.

I don't know why Brown's "character" is even a topic of debate. We know he's got a reputation for drama - he did long before coming here. But you don't fly the owner out to meet him, make videos of him raising championship banners to the rafters, bring Knicks paraphenalia to his kids, bring the best public and private school reports to his wife, etc, and offer him the biggest coaching contract in history, if what you want is a personable "yes man". Hire Herb for that, or leave Chaney in place without humiliating him.

You bring in Brown to turn things around, and he does this for you whether you like him or not. That is just what he does... EVERYWHERE... but here.

What the Brown bashers have never quite accepted is that the reason he couldn't succeed here wasn't because Brown is "not a nice man," it's because others in this organization wanted him to be something other than he was. They courted and wood him because he's Larry Brown, but then they wanted him to coach politely, like Herb Williams.

It just didn't make sense from the start.

Didn't matter if it were Larry, Phil, Popavich or Riley; so long as Dolan, Isiah and Marbury where allowed to put their egos ahead of the franchise, and in the way of the coach, progress could not be made.

The proper choice at the time would have been Herb. But now, with new management, many more options are viable.

[Edited by - blueseats on 05-02-2008 2:08 PM]

Agreed and I'll add what I wrote on Realgm the underlying hate from LB stems from an exchange of conversation between Myself, Kos, and TKF...


TKF Writes:

Larry brown just like Bill parcells is a guy who will get results, but things have to be done his way with complete support. These men are great because they won't copromise and if they feel that they don't have 100% support or that they may have to compromise, they will seek employment elsewhere... I am not saying brown does not have his issues but you can't argue with his success and what happened in NY with brown was less brown and more of Isaiah and this horrible franchise... Listen, this franchise chased two HOF coaches away.. Lenny wilkens and Larry brown... Two guys who know more about basketball than anyone in this knicks organization... we are not brown nosing, but hell, to say he threw the season is not true. Could he have done a better job coaching? yes, he admitted that, but brown is not about coaching to get 33 wins instead of 23. Brown coaches to teach and build up.. that was not happenning under the circumstances in NY... And when Isiah stood by and let the marbury feud go on, Brown knew he was doomed... He may have quit on the team, but at that point, how could you blame him. Maybe if he would have quit, ala jeff van gundy, he would not have been blamed for that mess....

Kosmovitelli Responds:

That’s true. I’d like to add some things people forgot :
- Isiah Thomas was coming of a disappointing 33 wins season when he hired Larry Brown. He was ordered by Jimmy Dolan to hire either Phil Jackson or Larry Brown. Larry wasn’t really his choice. Considering how Isiah Thomas built the team (Isiah said he was trying to copycat the Suns when he traded for Q only two months before hiring LB) and how LB and Thomas were on opposite directions (Isiah was in win now mode while LB always want to build a team his way, no matter how much time it takes). A clash between Brown and Thomas was expected.
-.Only a few weeks after inking LB to a contract, Isiah Thomas traded for Eddy Curry during training camp (not exactly the kind of player Brown likes to coach), he traded away our draft pick, thus putting a lot of pressure on the Knicks and LB to make the playoffs while we all know LB has a difficult first season as head coach when he takes a rebuilding project with lot of work to do
- The team had a 6 game winning streak in January then Marbury got injured and the Knicks started a painful losing streak. What did Isiah do ? He traded for Rose and Francis and got rid of the only Brown player : Antonio Davis. People complain about LB’s 42 line-ups, I agree it's crazy to experiment that much and Brown was out of his mind but it’s pretty difficult to define a roster when your GM brings 3 starting caliber players during your first 6 months as head coach ! That said the 42 line-ups tend to prove Brown did a really bad job but also prove he didn't really tank on purpose. If he wanted to tank to get Isiah fired, obviously he's not stupid, he could havereached 23 wins by playing the same roster every game. Let's not act like our roster was so good that it was impossible to lose 59 games. It wasn't impossible and it happened twice ! Once with Brown and once with Thomas.
Larry Brown inherited of a completely different team with several newly acquired players : Quentin Richardson and Nate Robinson (Kurt Thomas trade), Channing Frye and David Lee (draft picks), Jerome James (free agent), Eddy Curry and Antonio Davis (trade), Jalen Rose (trade), Steve Francis (trade). There’s also Jackie Butler who was signed only 3 weeks before the end of the previous season. That’s almost 10 new players, including 3 rookies and a sophomore. And you’re supposed to make that work in only a few weeks ?
Larry Brown inherited of a backcourt (Marbury and Crawford) but the frontline was totally revamped with Richardson, Frye/Lee/Davis and Curry/James/Butler.
- After the All Star break, Larry Brown stupidly started a public feud with Stephon Marbury and he didn’t get any help from his boss. Brown got zero support from Thomas in his feud with Marbury.
- During Isiah’s tenure as GM, only one coach was lucky enough to have 2 full seasons to right the ship : Isiah Thomas ! Don Chaney stayed for about 5 weeks and was replaced by Lenny Wilkens who was released after only one year. Herb Williams took over as head coach for 6 months. Then Larry Brown was hired and fired after only 9 months on the job.


It’s quite obvious Larry Brown did a bad job coaching the team during the 2005-2006 season but it’s also obvious he was helped and set up to fail. Let's not act like Thomas was a Saint and did everything to make the realtionship work. I don't even blame Thomas on his feud with Brown. Dolan is at fault here for pairing Brown with Thomas. If he wanted Brown, he should have fired Thomas. And if he wanted Thomas to remain the GM, he should have let him pick the coach himself. First he ordered Isiah to hire Brown or Jackson then he wanted Isiah to coach the team while he didn't seem to want that.
Larry Brown gave up towards the end of the season. He tried to reach Jimmy Dolan but he was told to go through Isiah Thomas, his boss.
I think that’s where the season ended. After that, during the last 6 weeks of the season, it’s obvious Brown didn’t care much and was trying to be fired. He knew very well he would alienate Dolan when he did his road side interviews. When he got no support from the front office during his public feud with Marbury and his authority was undermined, he knew it was the end and there was nothing he could do


As you said, Larry Brown is a HoF coach but he comes with baggage and the whole league knows it. I always laugh when I see comments like “how could Isiah know Brown would act like that ?”. Hello : Larry Brown was fired from the Pistons because he supposedly wanted two starters traded and he had talks with the Cavs during the NBA Finals (he put his interest before the team’s best interests). We don’t really know if those allegations are true but if they are, you think Isiah Thomas didn’t know that ? The GM of the Pistons is Joe Dumars. One of Isiah’s best friends ! Isiah Thomas knew very well who he hired and he knew very well how to protect his job.


This year Isiah Thomas also ended the season with 23 wins, he clashed with Marbury and he didn’t resign. Just like Brown, he tried hard to keep his salary. He’s willing to remain as a special consultant to Donnie Walsh as long as he’s still paid his hefty paycheck. And this guy is not self centered and supposed to be looking at the best interests of the franchise ? LOL
Larry Brown acknowledged he did a bad job in NY and only blamed himself for his failure while Isiah was still selling his BS at the end of the season and was still trying to sell the fans the team was good, we were on the right track and it was his only bad season in NY.
If Larry Brown is a snake I don’t know how we can qualify Thomas.
I’ve never seen a man making up so many excuses, putting the blame on everyone else except himself, trying so hard to keep his job and doing his personal PR till the end.
When a GM talks trash about his own franchise ( “you haven’t been proud since 1973”) and disrespect the team that went to the Finals in 1994 and 1999, you know he’s not taking the team’s best interests at heart.

Thomas seem to be the complete opposite of LB : Isiah is trying hard to remain with the Knicks no matter how poorly he performed as GM and coach while Larry Brown was looking to leave the Pistons after back to back NBA Finals.

Funny isn't it ?

TrueBlue Responds:

Kos I don't know how much of this thread you read but I touched on Phil Jackson on page 5 and I believe the end of page 4. Never was addressed by the LB haters thoroughly on the comparison and neither will your post. I agree with everything you stated though.

You managed to be one step ahead of me on the angle of why the Haters are so mad at LB. I was going to share my thought before the night ended that complements what you said, but has a little bit different slant.

We finished 23-59 in 2005-2006 and had the 4rth pick in the draft. We had at our disposal Roy, Gay, Tyrus Thomas, Rondo(reach that high but available nonetheless), and maybe even Aldridge since he was swapped in a #4 for #2 trade. Who knows what could have transpired via trade if we outright gave up the pick on draft night for an impact player or future first round pick(s)....But guess what we actually didn't have our pick because of who? That's right, idiot I SAY UGH made possibly the worst trade in NBA History by acquiring Curry and giving away first round unprotected picks to Chicago.

So I SAY UGH get's a free pass for the time being making this trade, because let's not forget I SAY UGH lovers, at least at the time, thought like the one they admired in that Curry was going to be better than anyone from the 2006 and 2007 draft so no big deal I SAY UGH gave up the pick(s). Since he did this whose shoulders did it fall on to make sure the pick(s) we gave up weren't going to be a high ones? Not Curry,... Not I SAY UGH,... Not the team collectively... NO the one and only hero had to be LB.

There's no doubt in my mind if we actually owned our pick that yr our fans would have created a special separate HOF for TANKERS and inducted LB into it faster than the speed of light. He would have been deified for his results.

Those 42 different starting line-ups would have been cheered on for a hopeful 43 or more. These fans would have wanted LB to shatter the season W-L record so comfortably, it could never be touched again. But this wasn't the case, we had to give up the pick so our fans wanted to turn LB over to Pontius Pilate to be impaled.

Since these fans have the mindset LB set us back well guess what, this meant next season's failures were going to be LB's fault too. So by season's end, the following yr more death penalty votes from our fan base towards LB, because once again we had to give up a pick.

So the past 2 seasons our fan base had been fending off Bulls fans and wanted the last laugh more than anything validation so to speak, if we had finished both seasons better... recordwise.

This is the real reason why I feel the fans are upset at LB

Most of the fan base had us at best making the playoffs in 2005-2006 as an 8th seed. So there was a chance most were accepting the fact we wouldn't make the playoffs or win as much as preferred, but nevertheless you're dead on with your thought because all would have been forgiven if the end result was an 8th seed.

TKF Responds:

I like the pontius Pilate refrence.. Now I know we won't dare compare this situation to that of Jesus, so I don't want people to go overboard accusing us of that, but it is funny, How the angry mob(knicks fans) are so willing to turn brown over, yet like the mob back in that day, were so upset they were willing to turn lose a known criminal.... In this case, we all know who the criminal is.. LOL.. (Isiah).. hahahahaha.. heck, what he did to the knicks was damn near criminal.

Posted by tkf:


nice work TB posting this over here.. thanks... after that, the conversation was shut down.. LOL!!