Posted by Killa4luv:

Solace,
Don't worry about insulting me, you think I'm an extremist, and I think you're an extremist too, so we do agree on something. The difference I see in a discussion with you on race, is that I have a vast personal and academic body of knowledge to pull from when I make my assertions, and its obvious you do not. In our first serious conversation about race, I talked you down from the 'extremist' notion that you do not see race when you interact with people. So I guess we can agree that we are miles apart. Nevertheless, I enjoy having these discussions, because without them, we'd get nowhere, and i think the George Bush notion of not talking to people you disagree with is foolish and counterproductive.

Posted by Killa4luv:

More importantly than that, which you will not find, I'd also like to throw this out there, I have asked it a million times and no one seems to have the courage to answer it, but it gets to the very core of what we are talking about here. How does a white person come to know how prevalent racism or discrimination is or isn't in society? How would you know it? If a gay person was on the board talking about their experiences how would I judge whether they were accurate or not, if I'm not gay, and I'm not studying the research on gays and discrimination? How would I have the first clue? You and many other white people on this board have some very strong views about racism, its existence, how overblown it is, and yet I can't for the life of me, figure out how you all would have any accurate answers about this. Who will be the brave soul to tackle this question after I have asked it yet another time?

Posted by EnySpree:

Sean Bell and his boys were shot at 50 times where one cop actually emptied a clip and reloaded.

The detectives union president says it was justified.....then goes on to talk about their upcoming 50 million dollar lawsuit......he is a racist piece of ****.

The Civil rights of the 3 men were broken that tragic night. The system is racist. Those cops may not be racist because of the color of two of them.....but like killah explained, the racism is institutional. That's the bottom line.

Anybody that wants to sit and argue about this is mentally retarded. 50 shots on 3 unarmed men is excessive. Period. They were aquitted. Fuck racist because how can a racist understand something that is obviously racist if they don't feel its wrong to begin with?

Bottom line.....those cops again shot 50 wreckless shots at this car. I don't give a **** about stopping a guy cuz he fit a description because this incident has nothing to do with that. It doesn't apply to this incident.

50 shots?

I'm gonna go hang out tomorrow with my boys in brooklyn. If we go to a bar, club, or the 24hr chicken spot and get into an argument with somebody, then decide to bounce before something happens....and some cops follow us back to our car cuz they thought they heard us say "lets get the gat!" like its 1993, we are ****ing dead. They could say put your hands up and we do, and my friends watch could reflect and the cops would totally be within their rights now to straight up shoot a missle launcher at our car.

End of discussion. Fuck all this debate over racism. Cops have been killing us for hundreds of years. When was the last time police brutally tickled any other race? Go ahead.....I'll wait.......not never right? "Oh it happens but its not glorified like you cry baby black people!". Man **** you.

Police are needed and its not about **** the police. Its about justice for the victims and everyone that looks like them. Jena 6? Katrina? Dialo? Leima? Wake up you ignorant bastards!

Posted by Killa4luv:

Solace,
Don't worry about insulting me, you think I'm an extremist, and I think you're an extremist too, so we do agree on something. The difference I see in a discussion with you on race, is that I have a vast personal and academic body of knowledge to pull from when I make my assertions, and its obvious you do not. In our first serious conversation about race, I talked you down from the 'extremist' notion that you do not see race when you interact with people. So I guess we can agree that we are miles apart. Nevertheless, I enjoy having these discussions, because without them, we'd get nowhere, and i think the George Bush notion of not talking to people you disagree with is foolish and counterproductive.

I said the Sean Bell shooting was racist and that it NEVER happens to white people. You said:

I find these sorts of blanket statements quite offensive. I am quite confident that with any decent amount of research your blanket statement would clearly prove to be incorrect. I'm sorry that you perceive things this way and I definitely feel sorry that you have to carry that sort of burden around.

Ok, let me be absolutely clear. I dont mean never, as in the police have never killed a white person in America before. White people don't get shot in New York city in 50 shot barrages. White people dont get shot in their building stairwells in 41 shot barrages, because they thought they were reaching for a gun. Show me a white person in New York City, who was unarmed, not committing a crime, who was shot with, lets say half, 20 bullets, on foot in a car, wherever, in New York city. Prove me wrong, dont say I'm wrong, prove it.

More importantly than that, which you will not find, I'd also like to throw this out there, I have asked it a million times and no one seems to have the courage to answer it, but it gets to the very core of what we are talking about here. How does a white person come to know how prevalent racism or discrimination is or isn't in society? How would you know it? If a gay person was on the board talking about their experiences how would I judge whether they were accurate or not, if I'm not gay, and I'm not studying the research on gays and discrimination? How would I have the first clue? You and many other white people on this board have some very strong views about racism, its existence, how overblown it is, and yet I can't for the life of me, figure out how you all would have any accurate answers about this. Who will be the brave soul to tackle this question after I have asked it yet another time?


Izybx,

Police are aggresive in high crime areas.

When you say police are aggressive in high crime areas what do you mean? What is aggressive policing?

I dont think that the amount of police and the level of discretion they are told to have is determined by the race of the locals.

No, not what they are told, but NYPD, who for years have been overwhelmingly white, in a majority minority city, bring their prejudices, and ignorance to the table. They are policing neighborhoods and people whom they have had no or little social contact with, and the culture of policing, in NYC has developed against this backdrop. YOu dont have to be told what level of discretion to have, if you dont believe the people you are policing are the same as you, if the people and communities you police are poor and uneducated, and hostile to police, individual officers make that decision for themselves. For many, every young man is perp, particularly in a poor black or latino community. Remember also, that the community's hostility comes from some place real. As recently as the 90's it was
established that the NYPD was racial profiling, and stop and frisks were being used ina a discriminatory manner. I didn't need a report to tell me that, I lived through it. The police in Harlem, where I'm from, have left a legacy and a relationship that is broken, not irreparable, but seriously damaged and thats something that new police have to deal with and be conscious of. When I went to college in Virginia i was amazed at how by the book their police were. No disrespect, no cursing, no overt violation of police policy, just straight by the book. I was 17 in 92 when I went to college, and my experience with Va police was DRAMATICALLY different.

I happen to be a cop in the south bronx. Ive been accused many times of being racist. Let me ask you Killa, am I a racist if someone gets shot on 138st and Willis avenue and the shooter is described as a male black wearing a black sweatshirt, a black hat, blue jeans and black sneakers so I search people who fit their description in the general area? Should I let them pass for fear of appearing to be racially insensitive? Well the above happened a couple weeks ago and Im willing to bet that there are about 10 young black men who wonder why they were stopped for "no reason".

You will always get accused of being racist, it comes with the territory. My mom works for the NY state division of human rights, she investigates claims of discrimination for a living in hiousing and employment. I've heard a million stories from her, you will always get people who are either crazy, or who want to file suits for personal reasons, or when they weren't in fact being discriminated against, or at least it cannot be proven. BUt yeah she gets alot of people with bogus claims, I'm old, I'm a woman, I'm jamaican, I'm albanina, whatever and there is no legit discrimination case. And some have legitimate concerns that aren't covered by the law. Of course many of the claims are verified as well, but I'm clear that there is a segment who dont want to take responsibility for their actions.

If you have a description of a black male wearing all black, depending on the day and weather, you could literally be talking about hundreds of people. I dont think there is anything wrong with doing your job and looking for people who fit that description. I do think you have somewhat of a vague description, no height, no build, no complexion (black people come in alot of shades)? But that sounds like sound police work if you are stopping people respectfully as you do your duty. And I'll even take it a step further, because all of these young kids dress alike, you could have a description of white t-shirt, baggy pants, yankess hat, black or latino male, and arrest a whole section of the bronx!! But when people say racism it isn't just about being stopped, although thats a part of it, alot of it is about respect after the stop is made, I can go on and on about how the first words of police to me and friends was "get the **** outta here" or "what the **** are you doing?" as we are doing absolutely nothing. I can't count the times this type of thing has happened. There have also been times, when I have encountered some cool cops, who were street savvy and didn't approach me like I was perp and treated me with dignity and respect, but that has not been the norm. I also lived through the Giuliani era where street crimes unit (who killed Amadou Diallo) were basically cowboys let loose on the street; they would just frisk you come up to you and frisk you, do you know how many times I was frisked during those Giuliani years? One time, I was dating a female cop and we were pulled over by an unmarked car for Driving a Benz while Black, and of course a huge argument ensued as she immediately identified herself as an officer. This was the street crimes unit again. And I can go on and on.

I know you get falsely accused of being racist as a cop. But that doesn't make NYPD racism any less real, and when I see people agreeing with you, who haven't had any of the experiences I have, it only further insulates them from a reality they have never known. I know there are 2 sides, but they dont, and in spite of me writing this, they will either dismiss it, maybe think I'm lying or think I've had really bad luck. But this isn't just my story, this is the story of all of my friends, and generations of young black men in the city. Real police work by honest cops wouldn't give us so many stories to tell.


[Edited by - killa4luv on 04-28-2008 10:50 AM]

[Edited by - killa4luv on 04-28-2008 11:56 AM]

Posted by PresIke:

Posted by Killa4luv:

Solace,
Don't worry about insulting me, you think I'm an extremist, and I think you're an extremist too, so we do agree on something. The difference I see in a discussion with you on race, is that I have a vast personal and academic body of knowledge to pull from when I make my assertions, and its obvious you do not. In our first serious conversation about race, I talked you down from the 'extremist' notion that you do not see race when you interact with people. So I guess we can agree that we are miles apart. Nevertheless, I enjoy having these discussions, because without them, we'd get nowhere, and i think the George Bush notion of not talking to people you disagree with is foolish and counterproductive.

I said the Sean Bell shooting was racist and that it NEVER happens to white people. You said:

I find these sorts of blanket statements quite offensive. I am quite confident that with any decent amount of research your blanket statement would clearly prove to be incorrect. I'm sorry that you perceive things this way and I definitely feel sorry that you have to carry that sort of burden around.

Ok, let me be absolutely clear. I dont mean never, as in the police have never killed a white person in America before. White people don't get shot in New York city in 50 shot barrages. White people dont get shot in their building stairwells in 41 shot barrages, because they thought they were reaching for a gun. Show me a white person in New York City, who was unarmed, not committing a crime, who was shot with, lets say half, 20 bullets, on foot in a car, wherever, in New York city. Prove me wrong, dont say I'm wrong, prove it.

More importantly than that, which you will not find, I'd also like to throw this out there, I have asked it a million times and no one seems to have the courage to answer it, but it gets to the very core of what we are talking about here. How does a white person come to know how prevalent racism or discrimination is or isn't in society? How would you know it? If a gay person was on the board talking about their experiences how would I judge whether they were accurate or not, if I'm not gay, and I'm not studying the research on gays and discrimination? How would I have the first clue? You and many other white people on this board have some very strong views about racism, its existence, how overblown it is, and yet I can't for the life of me, figure out how you all would have any accurate answers about this. Who will be the brave soul to tackle this question after I have asked it yet another time?


Izybx,

Police are aggresive in high crime areas.

When you say police are aggressive in high crime areas what do you mean? What is aggressive policing?

I dont think that the amount of police and the level of discretion they are told to have is determined by the race of the locals.

No, not what they are told, but NYPD, who for years have been overwhelmingly white, in a majority minority city, bring their prejudices, and ignorance to the table. They are policing neighborhoods and people whom they have had no or little social contact with, and the culture of policing, in NYC has developed against this backdrop. YOu dont have to be told what level of discretion to have, if you dont believe the people you are policing are the same as you, if the people and communities you police are poor and uneducated, and hostile to police, individual officers make that decision for themselves. For many, every young man is perp, particularly in a poor black or latino community. Remember also, that the community's hostility comes from some place real. As recently as the 90's it was
established that the NYPD was racial profiling, and stop and frisks were being used ina a discriminatory manner. I didn't need a report to tell me that, I lived through it. The police in Harlem, where I'm from, have left a legacy and a relationship that is broken, not irreparable, but seriously damaged and thats something that new police have to deal with and be conscious of. When I went to college in Virginia i was amazed at how by the book their police were. No disrespect, no cursing, no overt violation of police policy, just straight by the book. I was 17 in 92 when I went to college, and my experience with Va police was DRAMATICALLY different.

I happen to be a cop in the south bronx. Ive been accused many times of being racist. Let me ask you Killa, am I a racist if someone gets shot on 138st and Willis avenue and the shooter is described as a male black wearing a black sweatshirt, a black hat, blue jeans and black sneakers so I search people who fit their description in the general area? Should I let them pass for fear of appearing to be racially insensitive? Well the above happened a couple weeks ago and Im willing to bet that there are about 10 young black men who wonder why they were stopped for "no reason".

You will always get accused of being racist, it comes with the territory. My mom works for the NY state division of human rights, she investigates claims of discrimination for a living in hiousing and employment. I've heard a million stories from her, you will always get people who are either crazy, or who want to file suits for personal reasons, or when they weren't in fact being discriminated against, or at least it cannot be proven. BUt yeah she gets alot of people with bogus claims, I'm old, I'm a woman, I'm jamaican, I'm albanina, whatever and there is no legit discrimination case. And some have legitimate concerns that aren't covered by the law. Of course many of the claims are verified as well, but I'm clear that there is a segment who dont want to take responsibility for their actions.

If you have a description of a black male wearing all black, depending on the day and weather, you could literally be talking about hundreds of people. I dont think there is anything wrong with doing your job and looking for people who fit that description. I do think you have somewhat of a vague description, no height, no build, no complexion (black people come in alot of shades)? But that sounds like sound police work if you are stopping people respectfully as you do your duty. And I'll even take it a step further, because all of these young kids dress alike, you could have a description of white t-shirt, baggy pants, yankess hat, black or latino male, and arrest a whole section of the bronx!! But when people say racism it isn't just about being stopped, although thats a part of it, alot of it is about respect after the stop is made, I can go on and on about how the first words of police to me and friends was "get the **** outta here" or "what the **** are you doing?" as we are doing absolutely nothing. I can't count the times this type of thing has happened. There have also been times, when I have encountered some cool cops, who were street savvy and didn't approach me like I was perp and treated me with dignity and respect, but that has not been the norm. I also lived through the Giuliani era where street crimes unit (who killed Amadou Diallo) were basically cowboys let loose on the street; they would just frisk you come up to you and frisk you, do you know how many times I was frisked during those Giuliani years? One time, I was dating a female cop and we were pulled over by an unmarked car for Driving a Benz while Black, and of course a huge argument ensued as she immediately identified herself as an officer. This was the street crimes unit again. And I can go on and on.

I know you get falsely accused of being racist as a cop. But that doesn't make NYPD racism any less real, and when I see people agreeing with you, who haven't had any of the experiences I have, it only further insulates them from a reality they have never known. I know there are 2 sides, but they dont, and in spite of me writing this, they will either dismiss it, maybe think I'm lying or think I've had really bad luck. But this isn't just my story, this is the story of all of my friends, and generations of young black men in the city. Real police work by honest cops wouldn't give us so many stories to tell.


[Edited by - killa4luv on 04-28-2008 10:50 AM]

[Edited by - killa4luv on 04-28-2008 11:56 AM]

Killa this is absolutely brilliantly put. I was also going to ask why so many of us white folks know about racism when we don't really experience it in a direct fashion. The evidence is there that we are uncomfortable either empathizing with those who are expressing frustration with racism because of this very fact, so what we mostly do is react defensively and take it personally when we are forced to see how we benefit from racism.

Racism, as a construct, has been well studied and actually has academically tested theories that are highly relevant to this topic and our responses. For instance Janet Helms' White Racial Identity Theory which stems from Cross's Black Racial Identity Theory. Sounds crazy? Well, there are peer reviewed articles with quantitatively tested index scales that have demonstrated these theories' efficacy and found them statistically significantly correlated to their constructs. I wouldn't expect anyone to have me speak with any level of expertise on physics, but I find it interesting that we are so comfortable with being experts in racism when we may know little about it other than our own experience.

One other significant issue is relating to the use and definition of the term "racism." We are not using the same language. Much of why it is entirely plausible for police of color to be involved in perpetrating racism when they engage in this kind of act is that it is essentially still supporting the structures and attitudes towards poor communities of color, which in this case leads to higher rates of incarceration, death, and easily many other negative outcomes while white people pretty much NEVER have to face this kind of situation or experience.

THAT'S RACISM and why this incident is, based on the evidence presented to us, is an example of "racism."

Posted by izybx:

Posted by Silverfuel:

Posted by martin:

Posted by izybx:

Police are aggresive in high crime areas. I dont think that the amount of police and the level of discretion they are told to have is determined by the race of the locals. I happen to be a cop in the south bronx. Ive been accused many times of being racist. Let me ask you Killa, am I a racist if someone gets shot on 138st and Willis avenue and the shooter is described as a male black wearing a black sweatshirt, a black hat, blue jeans and black sneakers so I search people who fit their description in the general area? Should I let them pass for fear of appearing to be racially insensitive? Well the above happened a couple weeks ago and Im willing to bet that there are about 10 young black men who wonder why they were stopped for "no reason".

Im not doubting there are racists in the police force. Ive met some, and I can tell you that noone wants to work with them. My unit is diverse, about 40% hispanic (myself included) and 30% black, plus an asian guy. I know these men and women well, and Ill tell you that no one takes any police action on the basis of race. That being said, we are accused every day for making stops "because Im black/dominican/puertorican". There are so many actual racist things that are going on in this country, that it annoys me that the word is thrown out there so much. Racist cops, racist laws, racist policies, etc etc. The word is being cheapened.

man, I was waiting for you to jump in. Thanks. Good perspective.

Sure, its good perspective. I am sure izybx is a straight up dude and I shouldn't doubt him about there being less racist cops than we think. I am 100% sure that those cops would never shoot a white teenager jumping into a BMW or a Benz. If the white kid was in the Bronx and they did have to shoot, they are not emptying a clip, reloading and firing again. I am also 100% sure they are found guilty if the victim in the SAME EXACT scenario if the victims belonged to a wealthy family.
The problem is that there are racist cops and no one is actively trying to change them. Let me ask you izybx, you said there are racist cops and people generally don't want to work with them but how often does anyone try to change their mind? How often does another cop stand up to them when they are abusing a victim? I have met some racist cops and they act like they are proud of being racist. In this case izybx, do you think the cops were guilty of anything or is this how you would react as well?

First, I disagree with you that if a white wealthy kid was shot then these cops would be found guilty. Guilty on what charge?

Once again, the applicable subsection of manslaughter is defined in the NYS penal law as "to recklessly and unjustifiably create a condition that results in the death of another". Reckless Endangerment is "to recklessly and unjustifiably create a condition that could result in serious physical injury or death to another". (These arent exact quotes, I posted them exactly in another thread.)

The justification defense states in sum and substance that someone is allowed to deadly physical force if he has reason to belief that there is an imminent threat of deadly physical force being used against him or to a third person. A 3000lb car ramming into a police officer constititutes deadly physical force!

The above is what determines innocence or guilt in a criminal case! Whether some people like it or not, these cops are ENITITLED to EQUAL protection under the law and the SAME due process as every person in this country. Now I dont care what demographic group or economic class a person belongs to, that doesnt make you more or less guilty! I CHALLENGE YOU or ANYONE else. Make a LEGAL argument about why these cops are guilty. Look up the penal law (you can google it) and articulate an objective argument that shows how these guys could have been convicted.

As for standing up to a racist cop, noone does anything in front of me that is illegal. You better believe that if some guy is in front of me saying "**** these whatevers, lets **** this guy up) I would smack them in the head. I dont tolerate ignorance of any type, and personal beliefs have no place in the workplace.

As for how would I react, I wasnt there so I cant say what I would do. I can say tho, If a car rams me to the ground, moves forward and goes to back up toward me again, Im going to shoot. If Im responding (Oliver and Cooper) to help my partner after I was informed that these guys were going to get a gun, see my partner get hit by the car, see my patrner scream "GUN!"and see him shoot into the car, Im shooting. At the end of the day, Im looking out for my partners and for my own life. In the ablove situation, what would you do? If youre Isnora and get hit by a car and you heard this guy says that hes going to get his gun and see him dig around under his seat, what would you do? Run away? Ask him for ID? If you were a 16 year cop and youve never fired your gun in your career and the above happened and you decide that you HAD to shoot, would you feel that you deserved to go to jail?

Now, I'm white and don't really do causes... but because I'm doing things I shouldn't be doing and a cop challenged me, I decided to look into this.

A charge of reckless endangerment doesn't appear to hold up. The police officers actions do not seem to put others at risk and carried out with precision. The force was excessive, I suppose, but not reckless.

Manslaughter doesn't appear to hold up either because this appears to be a "lawful" killing.

But here in lies the problem. The kids on your route have no faith in the system. This guy was killed with what is to me excessive force. What was it, 51 shots? That could have been a scene in "Training Day" or a "Godfather" movie.

I think that if the African American and Latino Community wanted to make a positive concerted effort to bring interaction with police down--they should take responsibility in lowering their statistical crime rate numbers. Police are there to deal with crime--if you look at the statistics of who is committing the hard 7 crimes---you will get the answer. It's up to the African American communities to help themselves more--make sure their kids are in school--to have large community watch group that work in correlation with the police to curb crime--to take responsibility of making sure their kids are doing homework--making sure kids don't have kids of their own before the age of 16--to get off welfare---to stop having 7 kids with 7 different mothers--stop blaming others for actions of the past. When I think of the word ghetto---what comes to my mind is get up and go--why stay in a drug crime-infested housing development. If I was there I would MOVE and make sure my kids were getting a decent education somewhere instead of letting them watch older kids sit on the steps drinking 40s and selling weed. Id like to see African American and Latino communities take some pride and self-motivation to progress instead of blaming everyone else for their oppression. Stop blaming the present on the past. Everyone has a choice--everyone has opportunity in the USA--race is not discriminatory to success---but being lazy and unmotivated sure as heck is. If you are working hard towards success you don't have the time to be blaming others for your problems. EVERYONE in the USA has control of their own destiny--truly a unique characteristic in the world--it's up to the family structure and ultimately the individual if they want to take advantage of it. I agree with what izbxy said---the word racism is being tainted by being thrown around at every juncture.

Posted by Solace:

Posted by PresIke:

Posted by izybx:

Posted by Anji:

It's hard to see the inherit racism of America if you benefit from it.

And its hard to see the benefits of America if all you see is inherit racism

This makes little logical sense, my man.

I think he meant to spell inherent, instead of inherit. Anyway, he's just saying that our country is still pretty good, although clearly not perfect. But from these sort of discussions, sometimes it seems like you guys think America is the worst country ever.

Posted by izybx:

Briggs

I think that if the African American and Latino Community wanted to make a positive concerted effort to bring interaction with police down--they should take responsibility in lowering their statistical crime rate numbers. Police are there to deal with crime--if you look at the statistics of who is committing the hard 7 crimes---you will get the answer. It's up to the African American communities to help themselves more--make sure their kids are in school--to have large community watch group that work in correlation with the police to curb crime--to take responsibility of making sure their kids are doing homework--making sure kids don't have kids of their own before the age of 16--to get off welfare---to stop having 7 kids with 7 different mothers--stop blaming others for actions of the past. When I think of the word ghetto---what comes to my mind is get up and go--why stay in a drug crime-infested housing development. If I was there I would MOVE and make sure my kids were getting a decent education somewhere instead of letting them watch older kids sit on the steps drinking 40s and selling weed. Id like to see African American and Latino communities take some pride and self-motivation to progress instead of blaming everyone else for their oppression. Stop blaming the present on the past. Everyone has a choice--everyone has opportunity in the USA--race is not discriminatory to success---but being lazy and unmotivated sure as heck is. If you are working hard towards success you don't have the time to be blaming others for your problems. EVERYONE in the USA has control of their own destiny--truly a unique characteristic in the world--it's up to the family structure and ultimately the individual if they want to take advantage of it. I agree with what izbxy said---the word racism is being tainted by being thrown around at every juncture.

There needs to accountability. I want Al Sharpton to be equally outraged at black and black violence (something exponentially more harmful to the black and latino community than police brutality). I want posters on here to say how outraged they were that some 16 year old kid is robbed and set on fire in the polo grounds. I want the community to start cooperating with police, instead of adhering to the BS stop snitching nonsense. I want people to call the police on the crack dealers, on the prostitutes and on kids who rob and beat people. Church leaders should urge abstinence, and the value of education. Kids who drop out of school should be beat by their fathers, and dragged back the next day. Parents shouldnt point at the police and tell their kids "thats the enemy" (happened to me three days ago)or smack their kids for waving to a cop and saying, "hi police!" (also happened to me last week).

There is a fundamental problem in the black and Latino community that needs to be talked about. The problem isnt the police, or racism. Its the lack of good schools, not enough emphasis on family and education, and the value of hard work. Thats the tragedy. Thats what should have people in the streets.

[Edited by - izybx on 29-04-2008 01:09 AM]