the question is what else could we have gotten for Francis & Frye- I'm watching NBA TV top ten plays- and player of day is Kirilenko - might he have been available over the summer for Frye & Francis? Perhaps Frye, Francis & Balkman?

The biggest problem with the zach deal isn't is talent- its fit.

Its an NBA Fantasy team move- the notion of pairing Zach with Curry.

Just like the Francis Marbury marriage.

Posted by King1:

Lets really look at the Randolph trade. We lost all effectiveness of Curry and Lee minutes are down significant. We are about to lose Curry if he doesnt get included in the offense. Randolph took away two strenghts Curry scoring ability and Lee rebounding. He also bring what we didnt need on this team another volume shooter and turnover prone.

Basically with Zach your getting all the things Curry and Lee did within one guy. People if you didn't realize it THIS IS A GOOD THING NOT A BAD THING. People are kidding themselves if they don't see the value of having a guy down low who can rebound AND score for you in ONE PERSON. Just ask the NJ Nets or the Chicago Bulls what value a low post scorer/rebounder brings to your team. Assuming you put the other appropriate pieces around him.

I was watching Peter Vecesy last night and he give his reasoning for why Lee was struggling this year. I think he might be right about this. After last season David Lee thought he had the starting power forward spot locked. Then Isiah sends Lee a very clear message which was "David I don't think your starting material" and thus far Lee has responded with showing that Isiah was correct. Now maybe next month he'll still Zach's starting spot maybe he'll finish with all-star numbers but right now Lee is losing big time in terms of winning the starting power forward spot.

Curry's problem is that now with Zach he has to actually work for his shot he cann't just park his azz in the middle and wait for Jamal to dump it down to him. So if Curry wants to get shots he needs to grab offensive boards and work that much harder for position.

But getting back to King' statement putting it in a different context; would anyone here be mad if we brought in a point guard who could knock down 3's. Would people be saying " dammit Q is losing all his effectiveness and we're about to lose Jamal"?

Posted by bitty41:

Posted by King1:

Lets really look at the Randolph trade. We lost all effectiveness of Curry and Lee minutes are down significant. We are about to lose Curry if he doesnt get included in the offense. Randolph took away two strenghts Curry scoring ability and Lee rebounding. He also bring what we didnt need on this team another volume shooter and turnover prone.

Basically with Zach your getting all the things Curry and Lee did within one guy. People if you didn't realize it THIS IS A GOOD THING NOT A BAD THING. People are kidding themselves if they don't see the value of having a guy down low who can rebound AND score for you in ONE PERSON. Just ask the NJ Nets or the Chicago Bulls what value a low post scorer/rebounder brings to your team. Assuming you put the other appropriate pieces around him.

I was watching Peter Vecesy last night and he give his reasoning for why Lee was struggling this year. I think he might be right about this. After last season David Lee thought he had the starting power forward spot locked. Then Isiah sends Lee a very clear message which was "David I don't think your starting material" and thus far Lee has responded with showing that Isiah was correct. Now maybe next month he'll still Zach's starting spot maybe he'll finish with all-star numbers but right now Lee is losing big time in terms of winning the starting power forward spot.

Curry's problem is that now with Zach he has to actually work for his shot he cann't just park his azz in the middle and wait for Jamal to dump it down to him. So if Curry wants to get shots he needs to grab offensive boards and work that much harder for position.

But getting back to King' statement putting it in a different context; would anyone here be mad if we brought in a point guard who could knock down 3's. Would people be saying " dammit Q is losing all his effectiveness and we're about to lose Jamal"?

So basically instead of building a team this past offseason. We put ourselves in another transitional period. We are now probably going to have to trade Curry & Lee and build around Zach Randolph. Then hope that Randolph being the best big man on our team is going to translate in a lot of success in the future. Even though it didn't translate in a lot of success in Portland. Who wanted to get rid of him so bad they traded him for peanuts.

You can't put Randolph next to a true franchise big man because he isn't going to coexist with him. So Randolph is going to have to be our best big man as long as he is on the team. Which means we are going to have to hope to find a franchise PG or SG and then build up a base around Randolph to cover up the fact that he shoots 40% from the field from the PF spot, doesn't pass, turns the ball over to much, and argues with the refs instead of getting back on defense. Then maybe one day that can lead us to a championship. And thats hoping that the franchise PG-SG can coexist with him and they compliment each other.

What Randolph should be doing right now with his 2 counterparts if he did want to have any team success rather than, personal success. He knows that Curry is a scorer with limited rebounding ability. He knows that Lee is a rebounder with limited scoring ability. When he plays next to Curry he should be sacrificing his scoring attempts and forcus on rebounding the ball. When he plays next to Lee he knows Lee is a great rebounder. He should put more emphasis on scoring high % shots in the post and creating shots for his teammates. Playing the game within the game.

Any chance perhaps that we could have gotten artest & filler for Francis & Frye???

Everyone works under the assumption apparently that Frye would have been enough to get Ron Artest but thats just pure speculation on your part and everyone else who believes this. Unless it comes from Sac's GM and Isiah none of us will really know what else we could have had for Frye.

Posted by bitty41:

Any chance perhaps that we could have gotten artest & filler for Francis & Frye???

Everyone works under the assumption apparently that Frye would have been enough to get Ron Artest but thats just pure speculation on your part and everyone else who believes this. Unless it comes from Sac's GM and Isiah none of us will really know what else we could have had for Frye.

I don't have anything to add to the Frye for Artest scenario, but Frye is getting DNP-CD these days.

Posted by nixluva:

You guys are overstating this whole issue. For the most part Curry, Zach and Lee have played well together and the evidence is there that they CAN DO IT. If a guy goes into a slump that doesn't prove that it doesn't work. The idea that Zach and Curry and Lee can't work together is ridiculous. They've had good performances together so far but with the turmoil and inconsistent guard play, it takes away the effectiveness of our bigs.

there is another phantom poster on this site named luvanix who says...

For the most part Stephon, Crawford and Nate have played well together and the evidence is there that they CAN DO IT. If a guy goes into a slump that doesn't prove that it doesn't work. The idea that Stephon and Crawford and Nate can't work together is ridiculous. They've had good performances together so far but with the turmoil and inconsistent C/PF play, it takes away the effectiveness of our guards.

Posted by newyorknewyork:


So basically instead of building a team this past offseason. We put ourselves in another transitional period. We are now probably going to have to trade Curry & Lee and build around Zach Randolph. Then hope that Randolph being the best big man on our team is going to translate in a lot of success in the future. Even though it didn't translate in a lot of success in Portland. Who wanted to get rid of him so bad they traded him for peanuts.

You can't put Randolph next to a true franchise big man because he isn't going to coexist with him. So Randolph is going to have to be our best big man as long as he is on the team. Which means we are going to have to hope to find a franchise PG or SG and then build up a base around Randolph to cover up the fact that he shoots 40% from the field from the PF spot, doesn't pass, turns the ball over to much, and argues with the refs instead of getting back on defense. Then maybe one day that can lead us to a championship. And thats hoping that the franchise PG-SG can coexist with him and they compliment each other.

What Randolph should be doing right now with his 2 counterparts if he did want to have any team success rather than, personal success. He knows that Curry is a scorer with limited rebounding ability. He knows that Lee is a rebounder with limited scoring ability. When he plays next to Curry he should be sacrificing his scoring attempts and forcus on rebounding the ball. When he plays next to Lee he knows Lee is a great rebounder. He should put more emphasis on scoring high % shots in the post and creating shots for his teammates. Playing the game within the game.

great post. your "transitional period" remark is right on. instead of building on what we had last year, we brought in another guy and now we're hearing the "what's our identity" and "learning to play together" comments from the team.

I knew Isiah made mistakes in the past. But I allways held out hope that he would learn from them and decide to build a team. The Randolph trade soldified that he isn't cappable of building a team.

Without the Randolph trade we would have had Marbury, Francis, Rose all coming off the books the same yr. Crawford, Curry, Jefferies, James would have been the longterm contracts to worry about. Richardson would be in the middle of the pact.

You package Curry/Q or Curry/Crawford. Along with Frye/Q or Frye/Crawford for shorter contracts even if they were lesser players. Targeting the 2009 season. Bought out Francis & James. Add in a lottery pick or 2 over those yrs. To go along with the cap space for the 2009 offseason. He could have rebuilt the roster and built a team going into the 09/10 season. The refusal to take a step back to take 10 leaps forward is why we continue to fail. Dolan doesn't care & Isiah is clueless so we as fans must suffer.

Now if he can pawn off Randolph for a shorter contract, then package Curry & Crawford for shorter contracts, then package Richardson for another shorter contract we would be back in buisness. It is possible.

loweycue

Take a deep breath! But I'll go with your suggestion and take a step back. Correct me if im wrong but do we not have a draft pick this summer? Don't Marbs and Malik's contract come off the books in the next 2 seasons? Do we not have the flexibility to move Curry or Lee whereas before if you moved either one of them this summer for guards you would have a major void down low in either scoring or rebounding. If you disagree or if I am wrong about any of the above please correct me.

What you are saying may be true for a team with a lot of cap space and trade value that's NOT US!!! That's what make this a terrible trade, then as now

Look nothing has changed in terms of whose trade value is what on this team. Meaning that Lee as before the Randolph trade has pretty decent trade value and same goes with Curry. Though you will be a 100% correct if they both continue to play poorly their trade value will go down into the toilet. Marbury has absolutely no trade value same as Q, Jerome James, and Jared Jefferies. But you can’t put that on the Zach trade.

We don't need a mismatched set of cave trolls with identical vacant expressions to lose 105-59 while shelling out over a 30 million a year for them. Curry and Zach are conplete misfits and couldn't work together if their lives depended on it.

Guess what I'll let you in on a little secret they aren't the only ones not meshing on this roster. Even more so this isn’t the first year a Knicks roster that hasn’t been meshing. Yea I know shocking but the line-up of Marbs, Crawford, and Q isn't exactly working out great. So maybe just maybe this whole meshing thing could be blamed on coaching and the overall team as opposed to just the Zach Randolph trade. Call me crazy call me a Zachlover but is everything really the guy's fault?


DJ creates this ridiculous thread (but I guess im ridiculous for posting in it LOL) because the Knicks got their asses handed to them but it was everyone from top to bottom not just Zach not just Curry or not just Marbury but everyone got embarrassed by the Celtics. So next time we create threads calling out the "idiots who liked this trade, draft pick, or signing". Then we need about 10 other threads to go along with it.


Idiots who liked the Q trade manup

Idiots who liked the Jamal Crawford signing manup

Idiots who liked the Nate Robinson draft pick manup

Idiots who thought Eddy Curry was an all-star manup

Idiots who thought David Lee should have been 6th man of the year Manup

Idiots who thought Jared Jefferies was going to be the glue manup

Idiots who thought Balkman was a better draft selection then a point guard manup

Idiots who thought Mardy Collins was the next New York Knicks starting point guard manup

Well you get the point.


But you know what Zach's biggest offense that he ever committed was TAKING DAVID LEE' SPOT that in itself; Zach will have to be a damn near MVP before some fans give even think about saying something positive about him.


[Edited by - bitty41 on 12-01-2007 4:21 PM]

Bonn quick question does the addition of KG to this Knicks roster, meaning no other changes are they winning 50 games?

Blue wouldn't you agree that is pointless to even have a discussion about fixing the Knicks until Isiah Thomas is gone? We all could go on all day about this trade, that draft, that buy-out but we're just wasting our time because Isiah Thomas is still at the head of this ship.