Posted by holfresh:

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by holfresh:

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by holfresh:


And Blue, my rants aren't even directed at you...You have been one of the most honest guys who shoot from the hip....

Thanks, and I didn't take it personally. I'm not committed to one more than the other, I just want to see a fair fight.

But...

A) It's not like we're hyping up Travis Knight or Scotty Brooks
B) You're not much different than papabear saying "all you guys who don't support Zeke and Marbs are racist."

I'm used to it. I used to get called a racist on a near daily basis for my diatribes on realgm... by the same guys who now want to hunt down some knicks with pitchforks. Never with an apology to me and my ilk though.

I'm just surprised that the blacks who prefer Lee, or who don't like Isiah and Steph, don't take you guys to task for your comments. I don't see why they should be any less offended.

Now back to Portland. Why did they want to trade Zach for Lee?

By the way, What comments have I made that you find so offensive?

That people can't look past their own skin in forming basketball opinions.

So white people who prefer Lee to Zach must do so because he too is white. Ergo, if blacks do it's because they hate their own race, or are Uncle Toms.



[Edited by - blueseats on 11-17-2007 3:36 PM]

I think you are stretching my opinions a bit there...I would never say the choice of Lee over Zack is solely made because race by either color...For example, I think King1 loves Lee because he knows him...So his opinions are always bias, he isn't even a Knick fan....

I do think that some guys here make their minds up about Lee because of race...Do you think otherwise?...That said, I would much rather see Lee play better ball than Zack..I think Zack is a bad seed and would eventually get in trouble, embarrassing the organization much like what Zeke and Marbs are doing right now...The Knicks drafted Lee, so I would like to see him excel and win the position...But right now, Zack is head and shoulders better than Lee so he gets the nod in my book...I want to see this team win, period....I don't care who plays...Athletes and Actors does nothing for me in terms of being role models...I have never looked up to them...So I really don't care when they get in trouble, I think they are just like anyone else in this society until they screw up my team..Like Marbs, then I turn on them...Simple...

But you are using a broad brush when casting me as a guy who thinks people like Lee solely because of race....

Fresh, you still seem all over the map here. You seem to think it's okay because you say "some" people, rather than all, but really, any white person is caught in your broad net, and it's annoying. And as I said, I think it has implications towards blacks too.

Lets try this. Some of you guys who like Randolph do so only because he's black. And some blacks who like Lee do so because they hate their own race. How you like them broad brushes? Are those fair statements? Should I be surprised if anyone takes offense?

Lets go further. I don't know your or oohah's race, but I will assume you both to be black because you like Randolph. Is that a wise assumption? Even if such racial profiling is correct in this small sample size, would it make sense to extend it indiscriminately to Randolph's fans?

There's so much we can assume and imply based on a person's preference for one player over another, but probably very little of it is wise or useful.

Posted by holfresh:

Blue, let me get this straight...The Knicks are 2-2 with Zack in the starting line-up....0-4 with Lee in the starting line-up...the posters here by a margin of 2-1 has picked Lee as their preferred player at the position because they are so tickled about his efficiency ratings,(+/-) numbers, and generally he is a good guy off the court....



[Edited by - holfresh on 11-17-2007 8:31 PM]

If Lee's overrated, it's b/c he's the most promising Knick rookie since Mark Jackson.

Posted by oohah:

So you mean they might have wanted Lee over Zach for reasons other than race, correct?

No, I mean Zach Randolph was going to be traded anyway. Lee had nothing to do with that. So to state that Portalnd wanted Randolph over Lee is entirely mis-stating the reality of the situation.

Since they were going to trade Randolph anyway in order to develop Oden and Aldridge, and found a willing trade partner in the Knicks, they wanted the most appealing player they could get from an on the court and salary basis, and that is Lee.

The Trailblazers of course know Lee is obviously in no way as good a basketball player as Zach Randolph. Lee's number 1 skill is rebounding, and Randolph is better than him at that.

That is correct, I do not believe it is based on race. I believe it is based on people liking Lee before Zach was here, for having the highest PER on the team last year for him appearing to have an effect on the team that surpassed his personal stats (which was reflected in his leading the team in +/-), for him seeming to be a character guy who stays out of trouble in the off-season, for looking like the hardest working player on the floor many, if not most, nights, etc.

In short, Lee has looked like the antidote to the egocentric, low IQ, fruity, inconsistent, out of condition, lackadaisical, loser mentality that has embodied this franchise the last few years while Zach is still a relatively unknown quantity (here) who comes at a high cost and with plenty of baggage.

Well, I think that's a little naive. I'm not saying race is the only factor by a long shot, but Lee has been as big a loser as any other player on the Knicks at the professional level.

I am guessing you are not familiar with or don't believe in the phenomenon known as the "Great White Hope"?

In the second half of the 20th century in America, the sports scene has been dominated by black athletes, and it has left a void for white folks in a certain way. It's not a bad thing, people like to have somebody to root for that looks like them. Similarly, Tiger Woods has opened up the world of golf to blacks.

And for this reason I believe that Lee is pumped up to be many things he is not. He is the first white guy on the Knicks since Debuscherre who really brings it.

Skills well beyond his Lee's capability are all attributed to him when actually his game is quite limited. I've read all about his point-guard ball handling skills, lock down defense, and offensive prowess. I'm guessing you have not seen those daily posts.

If that doesn't answer your question sufficiently I can try to find bip's thread on Balkman being white for further reference.

Bippity's thread, which I have only glanced at because he bumped it the other day is absurd and silly for many reasons:

A) Because it's just absurd.
B) Because there is nowhere near the clamoring and fawning over Balkman that there is over Lee. Nothing near in the least. In the meantime, Balkman is nearly as good a rebounder as Lee, a better ball-handler, 3X the defensive player Lee is inside and on the perimeter, and they both can't shoot.

Somebody should start the "Should we Keep Randolph or Balkman?" poll, and I think you will see different results from this one (which I haven't checked out.).

oohah

Listen, you don't need me telling you why people like Lee, we have a 4 page thread right here, all you need to do is consider the merits people offer without degrading their arguments with racial innuendo.

I think Balkman is generally as well liked and respected as Lee, but, he's had one less year to show his stuff and been more injured. Oh, and Bips thread was supposed to be absurd, to point out the absurdity of assuming fans love Lee's contributions because of his color when they love Balkman's similar attributes just as well, in spite of their difference in color.

I don't want to gloss over the "Great White Hope" theory, but nor should it be overstated. For, instance I think you'll find a similar occurrence among blacks concerning black managers - they want to see Isisha nd others succeed in order to break the glass ceiling to pave the way to more and more black managers and owners in sports. I respect that, and if someone were to say to, say, misterearl after Isiah is fired "I'm sorry earl, I know you had high hopes for Isiah as a black manager and I feel for your disappointment," I'd honor and respect that.

But consider that in contrast to a hypothetical with that guy Cossellout, who put together a seriously minded defense of Isiah. If in a discussion with Cosellout someone suggested he must be black because only a black would defend Isiah I would consider that disrespectful of the diligent effort he put in.

Is it possible Lee's color is an additional attribute for some whites? Sure, what do I know, why not. Hell, as awful as it is for me to acknowledge, there are probably whites who'd sooner drag a black man behind a truck than welcome him as a neighbor, - just like there are some blacks who'd sooner stab and mug a white man than give him directions out of the projects - but I wouldn't use poster's feelings about Lee and Zach to try to determine who they are.




[Edited by - blueseats on 11-17-2007 10:43 PM]