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What kind of team are we
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TMS
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8/8/2007  4:30 PM
Posted by COSSUCKS:
Posted by TMS:

it's about team balance & addressing needs that we have... no one said ALL good shotblocking teams win championships... but most championship teams DO have a good shotblocker on the roster that plays a significant role... that can't be simply discounted... if we ever want to have any serious championship aspirations, we need to either be a GREAT perimeter defending team, or have a legitimate shotblocking presence... preferably both obviously, but you can't win a championship by just trying to outscore the other teams w/potent offense w/o stressing defense on the other end... ask DAL & Phoenix & they'll tell u the same thing.

And clearly many championships also were won by teams without a great shot blocker or as a mediocre shot blocking team.
The Bulls didnt have a great shot blocker and won 6 times. The Lakers that beat Isiah werent a great shot blocking team.
This is like saying when I look at the champions I always see a guy that scored 17ppg or above and rebounded 9rebounds a game or above. You could pick almost anything on a champion and say thats what they all have even though this one has a lot of exceptions.
The Jazz were one of the weakest shot blocking teams in the NBA last season and they were probably the 2nd best team in the playoffs.

i just got done telling you this wasn't about me saying we needed to be 1 of the best shotblocking teams to win... i said most great champions have a great shotblocker... Houston had Olajuwon... Lakers had Kareem & Shaq... DET had Ben... Spurs have Duncan... the Bulls won w/the best player of alltime in Jordan & they played TERRIFIC team defense, which is another point that Bip & i have been trying to sell to you on this thread, but you keep going back to the "you don't need to be the best shotblocking team" argument... again, it's about having team balance... we do NOT have a shotblocker, & we don't play great defense... i.e. our championship aspirations at this point are zero... the point is we need to fill some of these areas of need if we ever want to seriously contend for a ring.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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Bippity10
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8/8/2007  4:53 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by Bippity10:

PG: The facade needs to come to an end. Steph is not a leader and is on the downside of his career. In 3-5 years it will be worse. The time is now to phase him out. Stop half asseing and trying to eek out a few wins and start moving forward. Maybe Mardy is the guy. I don't think so, but maybe he is. But until he is we need to understand that with two post players, this is the most important position on the floor. We need a veteran to teach Mardy and need to target a young PG until we find the right one.
Steph should be fine for right now, but I would love for this issue to be resolved. This seems to be the season where we should find out something about what we have and if it's gonna be good enough. I like Mardy, but I don't know how Isiah feels yet. A lot will depend on if Mardy develops his shooting. I think he does everything else well enough to get the job done. Then you still have Jamal and Nate as options, but they aren't naturally inclined to be distributors, so I'm doubtful.
Posted by Bippity10:

Perimeter Defense: With Curry and Zach in the frontcourt if the next acquisitions we make don't play perimeter defense than anyone defending the move is really kidding themselves. Unless they fill the next need
The only guys that fits the bill are Artest and maybe AK47. Not sure i'm in love with either move. Then we still have Balk, Mardy, Jared, Chan and DNic who I think have real potential in that area. So i'd say that isiah has addressed this need, but we for some reason tend to discount these players. This season will again be a good test to see what we've got, but only after isiah either cleans up the roster or takes a hard line on his rotations. If Jared isn't getting it done he sits.
Posted by Bippity10:

Dead Eye perimeter shooter: Not talking Jamal Crawford or Nate. I'm talking about a guy that can guard the two or the three and does not miss a shot. IF we also get that at the point than that's a bonus. But at any given time we should be able to put 2-3 dead eye shooters on the floor with Zach and Eddie that can make teams pay for doubling, and of those 3 positions 2 of them need to be able to defend well.
Again this sounds like we may already have guys to fill this need in Chan and DNic. Unless you would want us to try and make a deal for guys like Kapono, Carroll or Korver, which I see zero chance of happening. These guys will come from within.
Posted by Bippity10:

If you do the above, and Eddie and Zach even give the slightest inkling towards playing defense and not just "trying" then you have a team that can truly compete. Until the team looks this way we will always be an also-ran.
So it would seem to me that we aren't far off from being where you want this team to be. We'll find out once Aug. 28th hits and we can see what Isiah decides to do.

Nixluva: I've been saying since the day Eddie Curry was acquired, that if the guy figured out what a true "star" entailed and decided to strive for it we would be a lock for the playoffs. If him and Zach do it at the same time there is no reason this team can't compete for the East tomorrow. The problem is that these guys have a combined 12 seasons of showing no interest in developing their all-around games. And you can't win if your star players only play one side of the ball. So we are at their mercy. And since they haven't shown evidence of changing, fans do not trust them to change. Why should they? This is why fans have no confidence that this team is title bound. They are tired of stars that promise what they are going to do, and want stars that are actually getting it done. These two could change that mood tomorrow. Talentwise we are one of the best in the East. None of us deny this. But it isn't talent that holds us back, it's understanding of what it takes to win.

I don't know if Nichols and Wilson are the guys because they've never played a minute. So those guys can step right in and take over or they may be career NBDL guys. I am passing no judgement until they take the floor until 3 years from now when Isiah hasn't given up on them and traded them. We don't know until they play. That's why if Isiah is going to go the route he is going, and having question marks with the rookies, then he needs to start targeting a few vets that already do these things. Guys that already hustle, shoot, defend. Enough getting guys and having to teach them how to perform, or hope they grow, target some guys that already do it. Even if it's a one year rental to teach the young guys. Again, this is why long-term contracts to lazy guys like JJ and one way players like JJ2 is so asinine. It puts us in a position of inflexibility so that when a guy like Kopono, Korver etc is available, we can't go for them. This is why I've screamed for years about trimming the fat(which some called depth), and now that it's obvious others are hopping on the bandwagon.

Now the Korver's, the Kopono's, the young stud PG's, the game changing shot blockers are not easy to find. It make take a few seasons to find these guys, and that's why it's imperative for us to put ourselves in position to acquire these guys when they are available. Keep your draft picks and pay your guys market value. If Isiah does it right he could be a few years away from achieving this goal. If Isiah continues with the notion of finding excitement we will never reach it.
I just hope that people will like me
nixluva
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8/8/2007  5:10 PM
There are a few ways to look at good teams. You have Offense, Defense and Point Differential. I think it's more important to have great Point Diff than it is to be simply a great defensive team or great offensive team. If you really want to measure your teams status, you want to see a Point Diff of at least +2 or more. That's what I want this team to strive for. We may not ever be a great defensive team and I don't believe we have to, if we can be a great Offensive team and only a decent defensive team and we have a high point diff then i'll take that.

Looking at the top Point Diff teams, how they did in the Playoffs and why they lost, IMO:

1. SA - +8.42--- They had the best balance of any team. Great D, very good O
2. Phx - +7.30-- Not enough D, but REALLY CLOSE.
3. Dal - +7.21-- Victim of bad matchup, Not enough D or Dominance on O
4. Chi - +5.01-- Not enough Dominance on O
5. Hou - +4.85-- Not enough O
6. Det - +4.15-- Victim of bad matchup, Not enough O
7. Cle - +3.82 -- Faced better team, Not enough O
8. Utah - +2.86-- Faced better team, Not enough D

IMO we can't look at any one team and say that's the model you have to follow, cuz all these teams are so different and it would seem almost impossible to duplicate what any team does. SA in particular is hard to duplicate, cuz where do you get a Tim Duncan? This is the thing with the NBA. It's really not about a specific formula. Jordan or LeBron blows formulas out the window. So with what we have we must find ways to enhance the team and make it work for US and what our strengths are.

Right now we aren't a balanced team at all. We're primarily an offensive team. So obviously defense is the area we have to improve, but we can't ignore our strength. Isiah has made it even more potent, cuz sometimes that's the only real option. Phx is a prime example of that. They kept feeding their strength. Not that they ignore D, but they realize that there's only so much they can do about that. For the Knicks to be successful, then they must be a higher scoring team than they were last year. We have to avg 100+ and look to hold teams to under 100. We may only be able to hold teams to about 98 or so, but that would be great for this roster.
Ira
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8/8/2007  5:26 PM
I agree. There are a lot of ways to win in the nba. And the bottom line is we have to score more points than the other team - no matter how we do it. Any way we improve our team helps us win.
COSSUCKS
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8/8/2007  5:55 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by COSSUCKS:
Posted by TMS:

it's about team balance & addressing needs that we have... no one said ALL good shotblocking teams win championships... but most championship teams DO have a good shotblocker on the roster that plays a significant role... that can't be simply discounted... if we ever want to have any serious championship aspirations, we need to either be a GREAT perimeter defending team, or have a legitimate shotblocking presence... preferably both obviously, but you can't win a championship by just trying to outscore the other teams w/potent offense w/o stressing defense on the other end... ask DAL & Phoenix & they'll tell u the same thing.

And clearly many championships also were won by teams without a great shot blocker or as a mediocre shot blocking team.
The Bulls didnt have a great shot blocker and won 6 times. The Lakers that beat Isiah werent a great shot blocking team.
This is like saying when I look at the champions I always see a guy that scored 17ppg or above and rebounded 9rebounds a game or above. You could pick almost anything on a champion and say thats what they all have even though this one has a lot of exceptions.
The Jazz were one of the weakest shot blocking teams in the NBA last season and they were probably the 2nd best team in the playoffs.

i just got done telling you this wasn't about me saying we needed to be 1 of the best shotblocking teams to win... i said most great champions have a great shotblocker... Houston had Olajuwon... Lakers had Kareem & Shaq... DET had Ben... Spurs have Duncan... the Bulls won w/the best player of alltime in Jordan & they played TERRIFIC team defense, which is another point that Bip & i have been trying to sell to you on this thread, but you keep going back to the "you don't need to be the best shotblocking team" argument... again, it's about having team balance... we do NOT have a shotblocker, & we don't play great defense... i.e. our championship aspirations at this point are zero... the point is we need to fill some of these areas of need if we ever want to seriously contend for a ring.

We should sign Shawn Bradley. He was one of the best shot blockers of all time! Then we can win a championship! :)
TMS
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8/8/2007  6:11 PM
this is pointless... ok COS, you're right... whatever... i'm done w/this stupid argument.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
COSSUCKS
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8/8/2007  6:20 PM
Why are you getting upset? You said we had to have one so I found one. Now we can move on to our other weakness.
djsunyc
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8/8/2007  6:39 PM
Posted by Ira:

I agree. There are a lot of ways to win in the nba. And the bottom line is we have to score more points than the other team - no matter how we do it. Any way we improve our team helps us win.

helping us win at one level is one thing.
helping us win at an elite level is another.

but baby steps...so step 1 has to be making the playoffs next season.
TrueBlue
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8/8/2007  8:16 PM
Since the yr 2000 the Knicks have been to the Playoffs 2 and the Bulls have 3 times. Under Layden and I SAY UGH the Knicks went to the playoffs 1 a piece. Under Krause the Bulls went to the playoffs 0 times post 2000 and under Paxson have gone 3 times. Paxson became the GM of the Bulls at the end of the 2002-2003 season in April and during his first yr(2003-2004) missed the playoffs but have made them every yr since then. Under Paxson's rebuild it hasn't taken him long not only to rebuild he also has the team on the cusp of contending in a far more difficult Division. He doesn't have any of Krause's kids he's won with his own picks and trades, the same can't be said of I SAY UGH. It's pretty sad the Knicks can't make the playoffs LEAST hasn't been all that good from top to bottom.


http://www.hoopshype.com/general_manager.htm


[Edited by - TrueBlue on 08-08-2007 7:33 PM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
misterearl
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8/8/2007  9:31 PM
Troo Blue - would a comparison of the first Chicago post-Jordan years, overlayed with the first post-Ewing years, be more valid?

Either way, what kind of team are we?

A team on the verge of becoming a team.

"Mess with the High Life and the High Life will mess with you"
once a knick always a knick
TrueBlue
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8/8/2007  10:02 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Troo Blue - would a comparison of the first Chicago post-Jordan years, overlayed with the first post-Ewing years, be more valid?

Either way, what kind of team are we?

A team on the verge of becoming a team.

"Mess with the High Life and the High Life will mess with you"

No you compare Layden to Krause and Paxson to I SAY UGH it's just that simple.

Both Paxson and I SAY UGH inherited teams in flux around the same time 7mos apart. What makes the comparison more comical is the fact I SAY UGH made the playoffs with more of Layden remnants than his own acquisitions and new sucklings. Whereas Paxson has made the playoffs with more of his new sucklings and acquisitions vs Krause's remnants.

As far as our team goes we don't have an identity really. Because our backcourt is so vulnerable and stupid and the rest of our misfits are Busts we surrendered to building around EDOLPH. A Lazy, Stupid, Power Team that has a few Potential thoroughbreds in the stables ready to used but we're stuck on trying to win the Kentucky Derby racing with a Donkey, Mule, and Clydesdale because we have no proven Stallions.

LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
misterearl
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8/8/2007  11:00 PM
xx

[Edited by - misterearl on 08-08-2007 11:02 PM]
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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8/8/2007  11:01 PM
xx

[Edited by - misterearl on 08-08-2007 11:02 PM]
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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8/8/2007  11:01 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Troo Blue - you might want to consider needlepoint or something that will calm your frayed nerves from resorting to calling another person, that you only know from a distance - Lazy and stupid.

Your resentment of these people might be a signal that an alternative form of entertainment might be a healthier option, just so you your frustration doesn't eat away at your stomach.

I don't know why it is so necessary for you to label this edition as misfits and busts before the season even starts.

supwidat?

You may not like Zach personally but I have a feeling there aren'r many eastern conference power forwards who have circled Knicks games as a soft touch due to that matchup

Mardy Collins is as intelligent as they come

Wilson Chandler and Demetris Nichols were fun and focused in Vegas. I will enjoy watching them take baby steps

Jamal Crawford gives good microphone and has room to improve in the context of returning healthy again

David Lee is not a bust nor is he stupid



but hey, the Celtics could certainly use your support





once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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8/8/2007  11:35 PM
In a Related Story

DaMarcus Beasley got a bit beat up during his Scottish Premier League debut last weekend for Rangers, his new club. But the muscling and hard tackles pale in comparison to the ugly abuse he and teammate Jean-Claude Darcheville reportedly suffered in Montenegro on Tuesday.

Beasley and his French teammate, who is also black, were the object of racist chants from fans FK Zeta supporters during a European Champions League qualifying match. The American attacker did the only thing he could to silence the racist fans: Beasley scored the game’s only goal, his first for Rangers. The Glasgow club won the game 1-0 and advanced 3-0 on aggregate.

Beasley, who said he received similar abuse in Belgrade when he was playing the Champions League for PSV Eindhoven, told the Rangers Web site: “It sickens to hear these chants but when you are on the pitch you have to try to blank it out. It degrades the game for everyone.”
once a knick always a knick
arkrud
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8/9/2007  1:09 AM
Posted by misterearl:

In a Related Story

DaMarcus Beasley got a bit beat up during his Scottish Premier League debut last weekend for Rangers, his new club. But the muscling and hard tackles pale in comparison to the ugly abuse he and teammate Jean-Claude Darcheville reportedly suffered in Montenegro on Tuesday.

Beasley and his French teammate, who is also black, were the object of racist chants from fans FK Zeta supporters during a European Champions League qualifying match. The American attacker did the only thing he could to silence the racist fans: Beasley scored the game’s only goal, his first for Rangers. The Glasgow club won the game 1-0 and advanced 3-0 on aggregate.

Beasley, who said he received similar abuse in Belgrade when he was playing the Champions League for PSV Eindhoven, told the Rangers Web site: “It sickens to hear these chants but when you are on the pitch you have to try to blank it out. It degrades the game for everyone.”

So what you are saying Knicks team has an identity - this is black-holes team.
And they will try
to blank it out
this upcoming season...
And yes
It degrades the game for everyone


"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
COSSUCKS
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8/9/2007  1:22 AM
Paxxon benefitted from 6 years in a row averaging 20 wins a season. As bad as Isiah has been his record doesnt touch that.
nixluva
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8/9/2007  2:40 AM
Who cares that Chi has won more games? That's not really the point. The one thing neither team has is a finals appearance since Paxson and Isiah have been here. The Bulls could go to the playoffs every year and it won't mean a thing to me, if the Knicks made it to the finals despite not winning as many games, that trumps all those playoff appearances to me.

Someone said that this team doesn't resemble a finals team, but how soon we forget that we got to the finals in 99 with a team that few thought was capable of that. You can never really say. I thought Cleveland was a bit of a shock to have made it to the finals. I didn't think the Heat was a particularly classic team either and they won a title. You don't worry about how this team would rank in the history of finals teams, you just want to get there. Some felt that Jordan got off easy, since he didn't have to beat any truly great teams in his run. His beating the Pistons who were on the way down didn't really rate that high, but who cares. THEY WON! Houston won when Jordan was on his break.

I just want to see the Knicks win. If they aren't your typically great defensive team I could care less as long as they win. I happen to think this team is gonna win more than many of the Analysts seem to think. You have guys like Hollinger mentioning our weak D, but by the same token there's no one saying the same about Wash. and they play even less D. We can do this. Let's just see what Isiah does with the roster and take it from there.

At this point I don't think he can do anything that will make us worse. I think we can only get better from here. Artest or no Artest, once he trims the roster we'll have a better picture of what we're working with.
Bippity10
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8/9/2007  9:43 AM
Nixluva I have a Sports Illustrated pre-season preview that is sitting on my desk that predicted the Knicks to win the East in '99. They underachieved during the regular season so that is why their playoff run is considered to be somethign amazing. The reality is that it was a good team that finally got their act together.

The same two guys on this board keep mentioning talent as the reason whey they think this team will do well. And the same 80 people keep saying that they know that the team is talented and that talent hasn't been what has held us back. It's leadership and a commitment to doing the necessary things to win. Our two best players don't play defense at all. This will hold us back no matter how we want to sugarcoat all the other things around it. Until our two best players committ to being leaders and all-around players we all know that this team has no chance to ever win a title. We can argue, and argue, and have circle conversations but in the end everyone on this board knows that I am 100% correct.
I just hope that people will like me
arkrud
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8/9/2007  9:44 AM
Posted by nixluva:

Who cares that Chi has won more games? That's not really the point. The one thing neither team has is a finals appearance since Paxson and Isiah have been here. The Bulls could go to the playoffs every year and it won't mean a thing to me, if the Knicks made it to the finals despite not winning as many games, that trumps all those playoff appearances to me.

Someone said that this team doesn't resemble a finals team, but how soon we forget that we got to the finals in 99 with a team that few thought was capable of that. You can never really say. I thought Cleveland was a bit of a shock to have made it to the finals. I didn't think the Heat was a particularly classic team either and they won a title. You don't worry about how this team would rank in the history of finals teams, you just want to get there. Some felt that Jordan got off easy, since he didn't have to beat any truly great teams in his run. His beating the Pistons who were on the way down didn't really rate that high, but who cares. THEY WON! Houston won when Jordan was on his break.

I just want to see the Knicks win. If they aren't your typically great defensive team I could care less as long as they win. I happen to think this team is gonna win more than many of the Analysts seem to think. You have guys like Hollinger mentioning our weak D, but by the same token there's no one saying the same about Wash. and they play even less D. We can do this. Let's just see what Isiah does with the roster and take it from there.

At this point I don't think he can do anything that will make us worse. I think we can only get better from here. Artest or no Artest, once he trims the roster we'll have a better picture of what we're working with.


Heat, Cavs, NY-99... What are you talking about?
All great defensive teams, all with intensity, all with proven stars, leaders, winners...
Team with bad defense will NEVER win anything in NBA - see Suns, Dallas. We are not even close to them offensively but even they failed because of avarage-to-bad defense.

IT managed to make worst possible moves every time we thought he cannot do worse.
Don't underestimate him. He can do it.













"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
What kind of team are we

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