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"NBA Has Gotten So Black American That The White Fan Has No One Special To Cheer"
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bigpimpin
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5/24/2007  4:08 PM
Posted by sebstar:

Yeah, I'll be so happy when BLACKS get over their past and continued mistreatment at the hands of whites. Ill be so happy when BLACKS get over this. I'll be so happy when they stop talking about it and just accept racism.

I wish there was a way that I could know the names of the posters who read sebstar's post and immediately agreed with him. And oh yeah, there definitely were some posters who agreed with his words -- without realizing he was being sarcastic.

I know there are many people in this world who would like to sweep the fact that we are so outspoken about "these things" under the rug. But it's not that simple as "you" may think it is or want it to be.
"Anyone who sits around waiting to hit the lottery, whether basketball or real life, in order to better their position is a loser."
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bigpimpin
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5/24/2007  4:11 PM
Posted by simrud:

Pimpin is right on this one 100%. When hip hop was selling in the 90's, it was all good. When it became too much of a good thing, the league cut down on it. The players can be mad, but its a business. You change your marketing strategy to make more profit. More people get fed that way in the long run. I'm glad somebody else used the n word cause you really can't explain this without it.

And that is exactly how I look at it. Solace does too. But he won't admnit it.

"Anyone who sits around waiting to hit the lottery, whether basketball or real life, in order to better their position is a loser."
martin
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5/24/2007  4:16 PM
Posted by lakersfan:
Posted by Solace:
Posted by bigpimpin:

Once again, its not as simple as you are trying to make it out to be. If I had gotten a change that required me to wear a suit/dress casual, as I do, then no I wouldn't be upset. I would try and look professional. But if I had gotten a job that beforehand made millions from the image I portrayed then HELL YEAH, I would be upset after that job blatabtly degraded the culture from which I came and which it has "consumately" pimped.

See, I didn't wanna go there but you forced my hand.

Sorry, I just don't see your point. I just can't see where you're coming from. I'm trying to, honestly, but no.


and thats why we are having this conversation in this thread. In the history of America when have white people ever truly understood our (black americans) perspective?? THATS NOT BEING RACIST!!!!!


ITS CALLED BEING TRUTHFUL!!!!!!!!!!!

if u have a problem with the truth or OUR TRUTH (black peoples), dont get upset with the messanger (the black community), u must get battle the message (AMERICA FUNDAMENTALLY PROMOTES WHITES SUREPREMACY)

....do u have any examples that will prove me wrong because black america has TONS.... dont avoid the subject, confront it, and then defeat it.

whoa, that's kinda heavy. How do you support that in today's culture?
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Nalod
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5/24/2007  4:17 PM
I don't think it was cool for players not in uniform to be wearing throw back jersies of other teams and other players.

Or SPorts hats for other teams.

The players got too causual in dressing.

Nobody said, "Don't dress hip hop".

A player can still express his individuality within the guide lines of the code.

Maybe they should just have the guys wear warm ups on the bench?

In baseball they all wear the same uniform.

In Basketball, you have coaches in suites, players in uniforms and injured players dressed every which way.

White guys with flip flops, shorts and Skater tee's would not be acceptable to me either.



Solace
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5/24/2007  4:40 PM
Deleted.

[Edited by - Solace on May 24 2007 6:05 PM]
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
sebstar
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5/24/2007  4:45 PM
Here is the deal. Blacks have every right to be suspicious and paranoid about white people in a position of power. From the moment we were placed on this land we have been subjected to some of the most inhumane treatment known to man. Many of these incidents didn’t occur thousands of years ago in some far away land --- we are only decades removed from them and many here on this board were probably alive when Blacks were hanging from trees.

You may not appreciate me invoking such images and thoughts, but the point is this: White people lost the benefit of the doubt due to their continued hatred of Americans with darker hues and their ability to act on that hatred. Even an issue as irrelevant as a dress code holds significance for us.

I’m sure the guys on the different ends of the spectrum like Solace and Nalod are great, well meaning guys…perhaps even Stern. If we met we would probably get along just fine. What I am talking about is institutional racism, which is bigger than all of us.

That is our struggle. We don’t relish the topic as much as you do, but you have GOT to understand that its so easy for you to cast a dismissive air to issues that mean life and death to ourselves, our families, and our ancestors.

Sure, we may overreach at times, and perhaps some claims may be suspect…but that doesn’t give whites the excuse to dismiss the idea of bigotry and racism. You may not like it, but respect where we are coming from.

I'm hoping the confrontation level of this topic doesnt reach a boil. A good, mature debate is always healthy, even if strong words or phrases are injected.
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
lakersfan
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5/24/2007  4:59 PM
as beautiful as that was... and sincerely it was


rembmer, it were racists that were responsible for the late Dr. Kings murder.
Nalod
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5/24/2007  5:07 PM
Racism exists on every corner of this planet.

It won't go away in our lifetimes, but it progresses.

I have learned things on these debates over the last few months I might not have gained perspective on.

There are places on this planet a lot worse than this one regarding the treatment of minorities.

Muslims towards christians, Muslims of different sects, Tribal differences in Africa, Isreal toward palastinians (im going next month) Arabs toward jews, Persians towards Arabs, Citizens of Dubai with anyone working there, Knick fans toward Net fans, Etc, etc,........

bottom line is thru dialog it gets better. Maybe the internet helps some.

In a way we are all just the the color of our posts in this forums. Without race talk, we are all the same.

Homers and Haters all getting along........



lakersfan
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5/24/2007  5:24 PM
exactly the reason why it should end HERE FIRST


then we can fight a good global fight
bigpimpin
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5/24/2007  5:32 PM
Posted by sebstar:

Here is the deal. Blacks have every right to be suspicious and paranoid about white people in a position of power. From the moment we were placed on this land we have been subjected to some of the most inhumane treatment known to man. Many of these incidents didn’t occur thousands of years ago in some far away land --- we are only decades removed from them and many here on this board were probably alive when Blacks were hanging from trees.

You may not appreciate me invoking such images and thoughts, but the point is this: White people lost the benefit of the doubt due to their continued hatred of Americans with darker hues and their ability to act on that hatred. Even an issue as irrelevant as a dress code holds significance for us.

I’m sure the guys on the different ends of the spectrum like Solace and Nalod are great, well meaning guys…perhaps even Stern. If we met we would probably get along just fine. What I am talking about is institutional racism, which is bigger than all of us.

That is our struggle. We don’t relish the topic as much as you do, but you have GOT to understand that its so easy for you to cast a dismissive air to issues that mean life and death to ourselves, our families, and our ancestors.

Sure, we may overreach at times, and perhaps some claims may be suspect…but that doesn’t give whites the excuse to dismiss the idea of bigotry and racism. You may not like it, but respect where we are coming from.

I'm hoping the confrontation level of this topic doesnt reach a boil. A good, mature debate is always healthy, even if strong words or phrases are injected.


Well-spoken sebstar.
"Anyone who sits around waiting to hit the lottery, whether basketball or real life, in order to better their position is a loser."
bigpimpin
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5/24/2007  5:38 PM
[b]Posted by Nalod:

White guys with flip flops, shorts and Skater tee's would not be acceptable to me either.

Neither would it be acceptable to the NBA players, black or white, who have never and will never walk into an arena wearing such a thing.

You cannot look in my eyes and tell me that the NBA hadn't gotten "too urban" for Stern. As a private business, he had every right in the world to change certain policies. The players should dress and act professional, but my point in the matter has been and will always be -- where was the dress code when the fans were generating billions of sales from the marketing of these same images that Stern has now banned?



"Anyone who sits around waiting to hit the lottery, whether basketball or real life, in order to better their position is a loser."
Bippity10
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5/24/2007  5:38 PM
Posted by bigpimpin:
[b]Posted by Nalod:

White guys with flip flops, shorts and Skater tee's would not be acceptable to me either.

Neither would it be acceptable to the NBA players, black or white, who have never and will never walk into an arena wearing such a thing.

You cannot look in my eyes and tell me that the NBA hadn't gotten "too urban" for Stern. As a private business, he had every right in the world to change certain policies. The players should dress and act professional, but my point in the matter has been and will always be -- where was the dress code when the fans were generating billions of sales from the marketing of these same images that Stern has now banned?

Wouldn't this evidence make us lean towards the thinking that Stern made the decision about dollars and not about race? He promoted it when it was making money. He has turned against it now that it has turned fans away. Where is the racism? It's clearly money.

Back to the topic at hand. Noone really answered a very important question. This author wrote this article without ever supplying evidence that white viewership has lessened while black viewership has stayed the same or increased. Without this statistic there really isn't a discussion. Is there?

[Edited by - bippity10 on 24-05-2007 5:41 PM]
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Solace
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5/24/2007  6:05 PM
That last post by me was too harsh. Sorry, I was in a hurry and misread what was said. My apologies. Thanks for pointing it out, Andrew. I deleted it, Andrew, would you mind deleting the quote? Thanks.

When I have more time, I'll post an actual response.

[Edited by - Solace on May 24 2007 6:08 PM]
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
BlueSeats
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5/24/2007  6:13 PM
Some of you guys are probably too young to understand something, because aside from hip-hop being a large enough cultural phenomenon that it simply surrounded your upbringing, you saw it gloried it magazines and music videos, etc. However, many of you may know that it's roots grew out of prison culture. The do-rag represents a stocking over the head as used in stickups. The untied sneakers represent prison life, where laces are disallowed to prevent fleeing on foot. And the oversized jeans worn halfway down the ass represent mis-sized clothing, as stolen to replace the jumpsuit after a prison break.

You simply have to understand the symbolism of that to un-hip America, and the rest of the world. When middle aged and above non-urban tourists are in a $500/night hotel somewhere and a busload of young NBA players traipse through the lobby looking like they were brought in from the police station it can be unsettling. If a little ol' white lady asks the concierge "who are these people?" it may not be as racist as you think; on a certain level it's a natural reaction to the out of context symbolism put forth by the players. Intentional or not, the word association attached to the wardrobe is "hoodlums," and I'm not sure it's fair to expect otherwise from the un-hip viewer. The same crew walking through bedecked in $5000 sits begets a far different reaction, and those considerate of impressions should appreciate the positivity, not negativity, of that difference.

Just google the topic of semiotics (the study of signs and symbols) to understand that almost all imagery has mental connotations associated with it, and the one projected by hip-hop is far different to different cultures. To blacks it represents "black pride". To older whites it represents "convict".

To take race of out it you'd have to imagine a league of mexicans dressing up as Poncho Villa, or whites wearing orange prison jumpsuits, perhaps sporting a Nazi tattoo on their foreheads like Charles Manson. Black American youths may bristle at hip-hop fashion being compared to gun totters or unremorseful, cold blooded killers, but in the yes of the less informed that's how it reads. It doesn't take too many incidents of well publicized arrests and violence to irreparably reenforce that symbolism.

Naturally when faced with a rash of such incidents the commissioner did what he could to clean up the NBA image. It's not exploitational, or retreat, it's doing what one can for the good of all involved. Evidence suggests that a black commissioner, like Isiah, would do the same.

As far as hip-hop, or casual dress goes, I think we've seen a lowering of dress standards that transcends race. It's even migrated into many workplaces, especially those with minimal people contact outside of the company.

In past generations by the time a child was an adolescent he might have worn a tie dozens of times: a family portrait, attendance at a baptism or communion, school graduations, weddings, church on Sunday, etc. But kids these days consider it dressing up if they put on a new t-shirt and jeans. This goes for many white kids too, but probably less so because dressing down in white communities merely represents a decline in formalities, whereas in some parts of some black communities it may also represent black pride.

Naturally, if the first time a black man is told he needs to dress differently it's by a white/jew they're gonna feel it's racially motivated - especially the gifted darlings, like Iverson, who grow up as stars and might even have the power to get teachers and coaches fired by the time they're 15.

But if a person is cognizant of the symbolism of their wardrobe they might understand that it's not as uplifting to their image and heritage as they may think. I'd bet an arm that Martin Luther King wouldn't have been caught dead in public wearing a rolled up stocking on his head - I mean do-rag.


[Edited by - blueseats on 05-24-2007 6:34 PM]
playa2
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5/24/2007  6:18 PM
Bip I live upstate, not in NYC METRO AREA.

The things I experience are probably worst here than NYC.

Upstate NY can be a very segregated area where stereotyped attitudes rule.

NYC HAS A MORE DIVERSE population so I understand why some don't understand my approach to some of my threads.

But like I said before I like to discuss issues that people around me are afraid to discuss.

This forum is filled with intelligent posters who come from all walks of life and that's what makes these threads so intresting.

I know we all care and respect one another, but the question should be do we respect one anothers differences in opinions about racial issues?

This is where "real america" has dropped the ball.
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
Pharzeone
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5/24/2007  6:34 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by bigpimpin:
[b]Posted by Nalod:

White guys with flip flops, shorts and Skater tee's would not be acceptable to me either.

Neither would it be acceptable to the NBA players, black or white, who have never and will never walk into an arena wearing such a thing.

You cannot look in my eyes and tell me that the NBA hadn't gotten "too urban" for Stern. As a private business, he had every right in the world to change certain policies. The players should dress and act professional, but my point in the matter has been and will always be -- where was the dress code when the fans were generating billions of sales from the marketing of these same images that Stern has now banned?

Wouldn't this evidence make us lean towards the thinking that Stern made the decision about dollars and not about race? He promoted it when it was making money. He has turned against it now that it has turned fans away. Where is the racism? It's clearly money.

Back to the topic at hand. Noone really answered a very important question. This author wrote this article without ever supplying evidence that white viewership has lessened while black viewership has stayed the same or increased. Without this statistic there really isn't a discussion. Is there?

[Edited by - bippity10 on 24-05-2007 5:41 PM]

Bip this was already talked about on another thread awhile ago. You seem to be interested and there are really many sources of info on it but I just got this from Wikipedia.

According to a study by Simmons research, which involved a survey of an indeterminate number of American adults, the primary audience for the NBA Finals on ABC is primarily male, with a fairly even distribution of people aged 25-44 (approximately 20 percent of 25-34, 35-44 and 45-54 year old people surveyed said they watched the games). The statistics showed that 64.3 percent of the audience were white and 23.7 percent were African American. A combined 20.5 percent of those polled with income from $100,000 to $249,999 said they watched games, and Democrats watching outnumbered Republicans 49% to 34%. This research likely corresponds to the 2005 NBA Finals, as it was published in fall of that year.[20]

For the 2005 NBA Finals, the Nielsen local people meter found sharp increases in the percentage of those watching the NBA on ABC when isolating the African American audience. In Chicago, New York, Los Angeles, Philadelphia, San Francisco and Washington, D.C., the percentage of African Americans watching the NBA Finals was larger than that of the entire population by 15 to 30 percentage points. In San Francisco, the disparity was largest; the percentage of African Americans was 56%, while the general population percentage was 27%. Most notably, "More than half of all African Americans adults in Washington, D.C. and San Francisco watched at least part of the NBA Finals. This was about twice as high as the overall viewing by the total population in those two markets." Nielsen's local people meter also found that "In every LPM market, the ratings for the NBA Finals were twice as high for Men as for Women."[21]

The 2006 NBA Finals scored ratings of 20.4, 22.3, 20.6, 21.9, 23.8 and 24.6 among African Americans. African Americans accounted for 30 percent of ABC's audience for Game 6 of the series.[22] Among Hispanics, the numbers for Games 3-5 were 6.0, 7.6, and 8.2, and nationally, the ratings were 8.0, 7.8 and 9.0.


[Edited by - pharzeone on 24-05-2007 6:35 PM]
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Bippity10
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5/24/2007  6:51 PM
The original article implied that over some period of time(not sure what that period is becuase it is never mentioned) that whites are turning away from the sport. And blacks are not. Their are no statistics being presented anywhere that indicates that this is so. Now I have some statistics that say in 2005 and 2006 that blacks in some major cities watched a lot of the finals.

I guess that I just don't understand the point of the original argument and what the author was basing his opinions on. There are a lot of black players in the NBA. A lot of black people watch. There are very few black players in the NHL. Not a lot of black people watch it. Is this racism? Do people like to watch what they can relate to? My guess is that you can say yes to both questions but that the majority of people fit into the category of question number 2.
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Bippity10
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5/24/2007  7:00 PM
Posted by playa2:

Bip I live upstate, not in NYC METRO AREA.

The things I experience are probably worst here than NYC.

Upstate NY can be a very segregated area where stereotyped attitudes rule.

NYC HAS A MORE DIVERSE population so I understand why some don't understand my approach to some of my threads.

But like I said before I like to discuss issues that people around me are afraid to discuss.

This forum is filled with intelligent posters who come from all walks of life and that's what makes these threads so intresting.

I know we all care and respect one another, but the question should be do we respect one anothers differences in opinions about racial issues?

This is where "real america" has dropped the ball.

Playa: I grew up in one of the poorest areas in Ct and then was lucky enough to get out an move to some nicer areas where it was as segregated as you say. I've seen both sides of the spectrum. I have my own opinions and that's why I am discussing them. I just ask that if an author makes comments like these that he backs it up with some type of evidence so that I can make an informed decision on what he has to say instead of just spewing out of the mouth like this article sounds like to me.

Is viewership actually down? Where is it down? Who is actually viewing it less than they did x amount of years ago? What are the factors? Is it because of the promotion of the hiphop generation? Is it because of the disintegration of basketball fundamentals? Is it because there are no true stars? Is it because whites hate blacks? Is it because Jordan brought fans in and now they have left. I have no evidence of anything. Just spewing. the title and the article makes a lot of assumptions but doesn't back it up with anything.

"It's equivalent to me saying that I have gotten so black that white people don't like me". That statement may be 100% true or 100% false but just making a statement like that without providing any kind of evidence is just spewing to me. It's done more to incite than it is to create any type of discussion in my opinion.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 24-05-2007 7:02 PM]
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Pharzeone
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5/24/2007  7:44 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

The original article implied that over some period of time(not sure what that period is becuase it is never mentioned) that whites are turning away from the sport. And blacks are not. Their are no statistics being presented anywhere that indicates that this is so. Now I have some statistics that say in 2005 and 2006 that blacks in some major cities watched a lot of the finals.

I guess that I just don't understand the point of the original argument and what the author was basing his opinions on. There are a lot of black players in the NBA. A lot of black people watch. There are very few black players in the NHL. Not a lot of black people watch it. Is this racism? Do people like to watch what they can relate to? My guess is that you can say yes to both questions but that the majority of people fit into the category of question number 2.

Did you read the article. The author said that the amount of white viewers drop as the number of black players increase. The author described that as racial not racist. The same as your hockey analogy. It is hard to use hockey as a factor because the NHL cannot provide any evidence where there was enough of African-American viewership that declined as hockey began increasing white. On the flip side the NHL has seen in increase in viewership of African-American viewers over the last 10 years. So your basis is sort of weak. BTW, Commissioner Bettman was primarily hired to attract more viewers particularly African-American viewers since he was credited with this while working for the NBA. Bettman openly admits to taking steps to increase African-American as well as Hispanic viewers such as the 2007 NHL All-Star Luncheon titled "African Americans in Hockey"

I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Pharzeone
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5/24/2007  7:47 PM
Also, Bip when the Commissioner of the sport (David Stern) said that a large part of criticism on his league is based on racism. I am not going to debate him. He made those comments on Mike and the Mad Dog show. I find it more interesting that neither one of those guys went after him nor did they comment it on it.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
"NBA Has Gotten So Black American That The White Fan Has No One Special To Cheer"

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