Posted by nixluva:

Posted by codeunknown:

Posted by EnySpree:

Damn man what's up with the negativity? Why is it so thick?

Is it possible to make moves anymore? Or did the the knicks get locked out of their offices? Its possible the knicks can make a good move this off-season that would catapult the knicks into the playoff mix.

The knicks lack enough muscle and scoring from the 3 and 4. What if isiah addresses these needs? What if the knicks stay as healthy as some of these playoff teams this year?

Why does the sky always have to be falling?
I say the sky is the limit.

No one's saying the Knicks won't improve. Heck, go ahead and say the sky's the limit for the Knicks. The problem is just that the sky is higher for the Bulls.

Care to explain WHY the sky is higher for the Bulls?

It seems that both teams need to continue to grow from within and to make some kind of deal to improve the team and get to the next level. Right now they're ahead of us in terms of team development, but in terms of each teams max potential in terms of the playoffs, I don't see them as having an edge at all. Unless they do something via a trade, I think they'll end up in the same spot next year. I think the Knicks should've been a playoff team this year and I think they will definitely be one next year. On top of that I like their make up for the playoffs. We'll have more balance to our attack and I think we'll improve defensively.

I'll explain for him: They're better now and they have more assets to use to continue improving!

I'll try to do better.

Care to explain WHY the sky is higher for the Bulls?

Posted by djsunyc:

Posted by EnySpree:


Why does the sky always have to be falling?
I say the sky is the limit.

that's b/c you keep taking them diet/energy pills.

They keep me seeing orange and blue so its all good.

Come on though DJ. You don't think the knicks are closer than they have been in a while to making the next step to contending? Isiah is one bad move from getting fired and one good move away from being a genius.

I will turn to the darkside if isiah can't make or doesn't make the right move this off-season. Knicks are right there.

Posted by EnySpree:

Posted by djsunyc:

Posted by EnySpree:


Why does the sky always have to be falling?
I say the sky is the limit.

that's b/c you keep taking them diet/energy pills.

They keep me seeing orange and blue so its all good.

Come on though DJ. You don't think the knicks are closer than they have been in a while to making the next step to contending? Isiah is one bad move from getting fired and one good move away from being a genius.

I will turn to the darkside if isiah can't make or doesn't make the right move this off-season. Knicks are right there.

i don't equate youth to rebuilding. i don't equate getting younger to progress.

there are WAY too many examples of team's that are perpetually stuck in some "youth" movement with nothing to show for it.

it comes down to a guy knowing what kind of team he wants to build, and getting the pieces, the RIGHT pieces to make it work. some of it involves luck but most of it involves smart decisions.

so far, my confidence in isiah's ability to have a plan and execute it with the RIGHT pieces aren't that high.

if the gm is at a point where it's all about one move, then that's not the sign of a good gm. you can draft amare, win 60 games, then have the guy get microfracture and still put a 50+ win team on the floor. the basis of comparison looks to be isiah vs. layden. i'd rather compare isiah to his contemporaries.

Posted by babyKnicks:

I thought we were voting for FUTURE.

why are you downers arguing past and present?

in comparison, I feel the knicks have a brighter future.

we simply have more upside in our current roster.

I feel hinrich, gordon, nicioni, etc have capped out.

it'll be close, but I give it to the knicks.

and yes, future is future..not next year or even the following year.

marbs contract year is the year to look to.

2009.

Posted by nixluva:

Posted by codeunknown:

Posted by nixluva:

Posted by Bonn1997:


I'll explain for him: They're better now and they have more assets to use to continue improving!

Being better right now isn't that relevant to me. That can change very quickly in this league. Unless they make some kind of deal, they look like they'll be stuck where they're at. The thing is that if by assets you mean some of their young players, then you really are talking about a situation which is unpredictable. They have picks, some cap space and young players to use in a deal. Then the next question is who is on the block that they should go after? What specific player/s are they to target in order to improve the team?

KG? Pau? JO? It would seem that there aren't that many guys available and it would seem that it has to be one of these bigmen. Then what will they have to give up and how will that effect the team? Will adding that player minus what they give up be enough?

Again, Nixluva, the burden is on you to make a case. The advantages of the Bulls have been listed. Even if you're talking about upside, the only advantage across 5 positions is with Eddy Curry. The Bulls have the edge with Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Sefalosha, Ty Thomas, this years pick, next years pick, cap space, a better GM, a better coach. All of their young players, including 3 potential all-stars, are on rookie contracts. Their tradeable assets are significantly better than ours. So, again, what magical factor tips the balance in favor of the Knicks?

The thing is that in terms of what each team is gonna need to do to become a serious title contender, I don't think the Knicks are at a real disadvantage. I've already gone over these things. What you and several others have attempted to do is LIST all the many options they have available without really assessing if those options really give them any clear advantage.

For one thing, the picks are only potential and trade chips, they aren't guarantees of anything. Cap space is the same way. There have been MANY teams that had picks and cap space and weren't able to do anything with it. Is it a desireable thing, yes, but it's not an indicator of a team having better chances for future success. Far too many teams have had all of those things and still stink. If you are looking at any possible trades and using the picks and some of the young prospects or young star players then the Bulls have the Plus of being able to put a nice package together for a big name Vet like KG, Pau or JO. The thing is that the guys on the Bulls that are really worth trading for are the very guys they'd want to hang on to. Just like us, teams want Lee and they're gonna want a guy like Deng.

Young budding "possible" All Stars on rookie contracts isn't that big of a plus either. If they're truly that good they will eventually want to get PAID, BIGTIME. The better thing in terms of making trades is young guys with reasonable contracts.

Don't include Sefalosha and Tyrus as giving the Bulls an edge. We don't know what they're gonna be and in comparison we don't know yet what Balkman and Collins are gonna be yet either. We have "hope" that they'll improve and give us more in the next season. I don't really think in terms of talent that Kirk and Ben are that huge of an advantage. They're playing well, but we have players that can match them at guard. Deng is to me their one clear advantage. Overall as a team the Bulls are better "right now". We've all acknowledged that. We're a year or so behind them in terms of team development. The way some of you talk you would think we have no chance of improving and moving up to where the Bulls are.

My feeling is that the main focus should be on what each team is gonna need to do to make them real contenders to be Eastern Conf. Champs. To me what the Bulls have to find is harder to get than what we have to find. We have bigs to develop and a dominant post up player and we need Shooters. Shooters are plentiful. Dominant post players are not. Teams won't easily part with those kinds of players. Thus when the Bulls go to make a deal what will they have to give up to get what they want? Will that weaken them in the short run? It's reported that Memphis wanted Deng and Maybe Gordon for Pau. I think it's gonna be the same way with any deal for KG or JO. These teams are gonna want some good young players for their rebuild. Just like the Nets wanted Bynum from the Lakers for Kidd.

Thats the most backwards logic I've ever seen. Cap space and picks are "desirable" but they're not "an indicator of success" because some some teams have failed to make good decisions? Look, the 9th pick is a clear advantage over the 23rd pick. Cap space gives you better options to attract better players and, thus, is a clear advantage over no cap space. And players who are good now with high ceilings are better than players who suck now but have high ceilings.

In terms of picks and capspace not guaranteeing anything, having no picks and no capspace guarantess that you have less options - and here's the leap - less of a chance to improve. Dont blow smoke about guarantees, Nixluva, because the only relevant guarantees are the past and present - both of which predict a better future for the Bulls. If you want to be objective about it - you'd admit that the Bull's youth have a higher upside, better picks and a better payroll. If those aren't directly the tools you'd use to improve your team, what is? But, even if I throw you a bone - and we assume that neither team improves, that leaves the Knicks at 33 wins and the Bulls at a comfortable 49 wins. And, lets not kid ourselves, that is the closest thing to a guarantee. The rest is speculation and, I'd say, propaganda on your part.

You talk about team development as if the Bulls have reached a certain threshold, where they are going to remain. Just waiting for the Knick to catch up. In a moment of clarity, you'd see that the Knick's have less picks, less cap space, and worse youth - its obvious that, if anything, the Knicks are the ones trapped at the threshold of mediocrity.

The only point of substance you make is that Eddy is a good post player and that those are scarce in the NBA. As a basketball connoisseur, however, I'm sure you realize that championship teams don't require offensive post players. I'm also sure that you realize that the Knicks are lacking at every position 1-5. Eddy, the great post player that he has become, is also an abysmal piece of trash in every other area. So while the Bulls may still need to find their post player, the Knick might still need to as well. Because frankly, if Eddy doesn't significantly improve his defense, he won't cut it.

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by codeunknown:

Posted by nixluva:

Posted by codeunknown:

Posted by nixluva:

Posted by Bonn1997:


I'll explain for him: They're better now and they have more assets to use to continue improving!

Being better right now isn't that relevant to me. That can change very quickly in this league. Unless they make some kind of deal, they look like they'll be stuck where they're at. The thing is that if by assets you mean some of their young players, then you really are talking about a situation which is unpredictable. They have picks, some cap space and young players to use in a deal. Then the next question is who is on the block that they should go after? What specific player/s are they to target in order to improve the team?

KG? Pau? JO? It would seem that there aren't that many guys available and it would seem that it has to be one of these bigmen. Then what will they have to give up and how will that effect the team? Will adding that player minus what they give up be enough?

Again, Nixluva, the burden is on you to make a case. The advantages of the Bulls have been listed. Even if you're talking about upside, the only advantage across 5 positions is with Eddy Curry. The Bulls have the edge with Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Sefalosha, Ty Thomas, this years pick, next years pick, cap space, a better GM, a better coach. All of their young players, including 3 potential all-stars, are on rookie contracts. Their tradeable assets are significantly better than ours. So, again, what magical factor tips the balance in favor of the Knicks?

The thing is that in terms of what each team is gonna need to do to become a serious title contender, I don't think the Knicks are at a real disadvantage. I've already gone over these things. What you and several others have attempted to do is LIST all the many options they have available without really assessing if those options really give them any clear advantage.

For one thing, the picks are only potential and trade chips, they aren't guarantees of anything. Cap space is the same way. There have been MANY teams that had picks and cap space and weren't able to do anything with it. Is it a desireable thing, yes, but it's not an indicator of a team having better chances for future success. Far too many teams have had all of those things and still stink. If you are looking at any possible trades and using the picks and some of the young prospects or young star players then the Bulls have the Plus of being able to put a nice package together for a big name Vet like KG, Pau or JO. The thing is that the guys on the Bulls that are really worth trading for are the very guys they'd want to hang on to. Just like us, teams want Lee and they're gonna want a guy like Deng.

Young budding "possible" All Stars on rookie contracts isn't that big of a plus either. If they're truly that good they will eventually want to get PAID, BIGTIME. The better thing in terms of making trades is young guys with reasonable contracts.

Don't include Sefalosha and Tyrus as giving the Bulls an edge. We don't know what they're gonna be and in comparison we don't know yet what Balkman and Collins are gonna be yet either. We have "hope" that they'll improve and give us more in the next season. I don't really think in terms of talent that Kirk and Ben are that huge of an advantage. They're playing well, but we have players that can match them at guard. Deng is to me their one clear advantage. Overall as a team the Bulls are better "right now". We've all acknowledged that. We're a year or so behind them in terms of team development. The way some of you talk you would think we have no chance of improving and moving up to where the Bulls are.

My feeling is that the main focus should be on what each team is gonna need to do to make them real contenders to be Eastern Conf. Champs. To me what the Bulls have to find is harder to get than what we have to find. We have bigs to develop and a dominant post up player and we need Shooters. Shooters are plentiful. Dominant post players are not. Teams won't easily part with those kinds of players. Thus when the Bulls go to make a deal what will they have to give up to get what they want? Will that weaken them in the short run? It's reported that Memphis wanted Deng and Maybe Gordon for Pau. I think it's gonna be the same way with any deal for KG or JO. These teams are gonna want some good young players for their rebuild. Just like the Nets wanted Bynum from the Lakers for Kidd.

Thats the most backwards logic I've ever seen. Cap space and picks are "desirable" but they're not "an indicator of success" because some some teams have failed to make good decisions? Look, the 9th pick is a clear advantage over the 23rd pick. Cap space gives you better options to attract better players and, thus, is a clear advantage over no cap space. And players who are good now with high ceilings are better than players who suck now but have high ceilings.

In terms of picks and capspace not guaranteeing anything, having no picks and no capspace guarantess that you have less options - and here's the leap - less of a chance to improve. Dont blow smoke about guarantees, Nixluva, because the only relevant guarantees are the past and present - both of which predict a better future for the Bulls. If you want to be objective about it - you'd admit that the Bull's youth have a higher upside, better picks and a better payroll. If those aren't directly the tools you'd use to improve your team, what is? But, even if I throw you a bone - and we assume that neither team improves, that leaves the Knicks at 33 wins and the Bulls at a comfortable 49 wins. And, lets not kid ourselves, that is the closest thing to a guarantee. The rest is speculation and, I'd say, propaganda on your part.

You talk about team development as if the Bulls have reached a certain threshold, where they are going to remain. Just waiting for the Knick to catch up. In a moment of clarity, you'd see that the Knick's have less picks, less cap space, and worse youth - its obvious that, if anything, the Knicks are the ones trapped at the threshold of mediocrity.

The only point of substance you make is that Eddy is a good post player and that those are scarce in the NBA. As a basketball connoisseur, however, I'm sure you realize that championship teams don't require offensive post players. I'm also sure that you realize that the Knicks are lacking at every position 1-5. Eddy, the great post player that he has become, is also an abysmal piece of trash in every other area. So while the Bulls may still need to find their post player, the Knick might still need to as well. Because frankly, if Eddy doesn't significantly improve his defense, he won't cut it.

Just an excellent breakdown like I said he doesn't make any relevant points. I'm going to use some quick Nixluvaism here. Let's say we use the same amount of If's as Luva applies to Knicks towards the Bulls. Don't the Bulls then, clearly have the better future?

It doesn't matter how many weak areas your team has or how few assets it has to address them...so long as you have someone who can score in the low-post, you're team is set for the the next 15 years!

Posted by codeunknown:

Thats the most backwards logic I've ever seen. Cap space and picks are "desirable" but they're not "an indicator of success" because some some teams have failed to make good decisions? Look, the 9th pick is a clear advantage over the 23rd pick. Cap space gives you better options to attract better players and, thus, is a clear advantage over no cap space. And players who are good now with high ceilings are better than players who suck now but have high ceilings.

Posted by codeunknown:

You talk about team development as if the Bulls have reached a certain threshold, where they are going to remain. Just waiting for the Knick to catch up. In a moment of clarity, you'd see that the Knick's have less picks, less cap space, and worse youth - its obvious that, if anything, the Knicks are the ones trapped at the threshold of mediocrity.

You're speaking in generalities and not being specific. They used cap space to sign Ben Wallace and that was a good short term move. However, simply having cap space and no real FA's to sign with that cap space renders the cap space useless.