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Why does Isiah still have supporters despite his 119-182 record with the Knicks?
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TrueBlue
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5/1/2007  2:16 PM
Posted by Masterplan:
Posted by TrueBlue:

I’m considering a blowout loss 12 or more points

nice work. out of curiosity, why make the blowout cutoff 12 points? not 10, 15, anywhere else?

I figure 10pt losses are not good but common losses another possession over makes it IMO a very bad loss or quasi blowout.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
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Masterplan
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5/1/2007  2:19 PM
Posted by Cookdcokehop:

If your boss gave you a franchise told you he wanted to win now and did not want rebuild and told you spending money was not a problem because he was a millionaire, what would your team look like? Zeke did what he was told. Layden was givent eh same set of rules. If he tried to rebuild in NY the Knicks would have lost a **** load of money and Zeke would of lost his job a long time ago. Dolan knows he has alot to do with how the Knicks are right now, so now him and Zeke are working together to make "intelligent" moves that will benefit the franchise. If you have no patience then change ya fav. team. Im here for the long haul, I got faith in this experiment.

what i've never gotten a straight answer to is, if IT is operating udner such a strict "win now" mandate, why does he still have a job? he hasn't won ****. where was the win now thing when he was turning in .400 seasons?

if our GM could get away with two 33 win and a 23 win season and still have his job, then as a fan i would want a few top lottery picks for my suffering.
Bippity10
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5/1/2007  2:23 PM
Posted by Cookdcokehop:

If your boss gave you a franchise told you he wanted to win now and did not want rebuild and told you spending money was not a problem because he was a millionaire, what would your team look like? Zeke did what he was told. Layden was givent eh same set of rules. If he tried to rebuild in NY the Knicks would have lost a **** load of money and Zeke would of lost his job a long time ago. Dolan knows he has alot to do with how the Knicks are right now, so now him and Zeke are working together to make "intelligent" moves that will benefit the franchise. If you have no patience then change ya fav. team. Im here for the long haul, I got faith in this experiment.

I guess you guys have a different definition of rebuilding than me. The typical quick fan rebuilding definition is get rid of everyone, stink and rebuild with lottery hopes. I personally feel rebuilding is done anytime you change the core and REBUILD AROUND A NEW ONE. Unfortunately I have to restate this each time I post in order to avoid getting lumped into the tear it down crew.

Isiah tried to rebuild and win at the same time. I'm fien with that. It's been done. I think Indy did it when they ushered out the Reggie era and ushered int he Jermaine era. It didn't work but I respect the attempt. I respect Isiah going this way. But that doesn't mean I accept the TT's, the JJ's the Stevie's of the world that clearly don't fit our plans. That is what I dislike. I killed Layden for a lot of moves but Dice was not one of them. Why? Because at least it fit a plan. JJ2 so far has been a bust. But at least he fits the roster. JJ1 and Stevie and Jalen and TT? Where was the fit?

As for this false notion that you can't rebuild in NY. This is such nonsense. Rebuilding as opposed to what they have actually done the last 5 years? Explain to me what the difference in fan reaction would be. The truth is the fan reaction towards tearing it down and losing with top 10 picks would have resulted in far more patience than rebuilding and losing with Tim Thomas, Steve Francis, JJ, JJ2, JJ1 etc. What would have been worse? Leave the fans out of this. This is about management. No matter what the names are. It always comes down to management for us. 7 years the names have changed but the methods have stayed the same.
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RemBee76
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5/1/2007  2:52 PM
Posted by Masterplan:
what i've never gotten a straight answer to is, if IT is operating udner such a strict "win now" mandate, why does he still have a job? he hasn't won ****.

Ha, that's a good point. Maybe Dolan recognizes that Allan Houston’s retirement threw a wrench into the works early on. And Larry Brown helped too. Lets look at the history. Isiah got the Knicks into the playoffs his first year after taking over a team that was 9-19. Next year we win 33 games after Allan Houston shuts it down and Dolan panics, brings in Larry Brown. Now, Brown and Isiah probably didn't have a strict win-now mandate, but its clear Dolan is looking for a quick turnaround by bringing in the big gun. Then Larry Brown screws up so badly that Isiah (with help from the players) is able to pin the poor season entirely on him. Dolan still refers to that season as a "lost year". Not saying I agree with this entirely, we're talking Dolan. Even still, Isiah is given one year to show progress, gets b-slapped in front of millions on the tellie, and is given the coaches job he didn't want. Under those conditions, Isiah's charges do show progress and look to finish with something like 38-40 wins and a possible playoff birth after a dismal start, so Dolan gives Isiah the extension.

Now, it might be interesting to speculate what Dolan would have done if the Knicks were looking like a 33 win team at that point and were out of the playoff picture two months before the end of the season. My guess is Isiah doesn't get the extension, and he wouldn't have deserved it. But I don't think that team that started playing roughly .500 ball was no aberration, and the team started to show some promise.

No public statements this off-season (yet) but you better believe that Thomas' job is in jeopardy again if the team doesn't make good on that promise.
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Bippity10
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5/1/2007  2:59 PM
I think it's just getting to the point where we are running low on excuses and sooner or later it has to be put up or shut up. Some of us reached that point this year. Some are giving it an extra year. What's the difference. IN the end we have the same opinion. It's just that one man has more faith in the men in charge than others do. Both fans love the team.
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MS
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5/1/2007  3:35 PM
If your boss gave you a franchise told you he wanted to win now and did not want rebuild and told you spending money was not a problem because he was a millionaire, what would your team look like? Zeke did what he was told. Layden was givent eh same set of rules. If he tried to rebuild in NY the Knicks would have lost a **** load of money and Zeke would of lost his job a long time ago. Dolan knows he has alot to do with how the Knicks are right now, so now him and Zeke are working together to make "intelligent" moves that will benefit the franchise. If you have no patience then change ya fav. team. Im here for the long haul, I got faith in this experiment.

Quite possibly the dumbest thing i have ever read, maybe? So that warrants signing low impact players for big dollars with the midlevel, trading for a guy with back problems, heart issues, attitude issues.

If your rebuilding your not making the playoffs its that simple, and we haven't made the playoffs for a very long time, and i don't count the ass pounding the nets gave us because we are under .500. If you have money to spend you spend it one the right pieces you don't just get overpaid agin players that don't contribute to overal success

How would the knicks have lost money, the only year the fans didn't come was the begining of this one and its quite evident Zeke is a slime ball with no concrete plan. So he has a fee role players, boderline starters to go with a center who does one thing well. Thats a long term plan, please? Having faith in Isiah is absurd, and switching teams is not an option because some used car salesman is running our franchise
Bippity10
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5/1/2007  3:44 PM
I have to agree with MS on this. This notion that you can't rebuild in NY is such a bogus peoce of shiot that has no basis in fact. Nothing can be worse than last year and yet the fans showed up in force this year. The building wasn't burned to the ground. Isiah is still here.

The truth is our managment team can't rebuild in NY because they are afraid to. The fans are all for it.
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Bippity10
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5/1/2007  3:48 PM
Another thing about the booing. Adn this is something that Gm's have to understand. FAns in NY boo. It's there way of voicing displeasure. It doesn't mean they want you dead or have given up on you. They will cheer you the moment you do well(see Marbs if you need an example). But when fans are upset they boo. IF a player can't take that he shouldn't be in New York because it's not going to change. GM's need to be cognizant of this and only bring in tough minded players.

If you noticed the team that gave us 15 years of success we had nothing but tough minded players. And when we brought in a player that wasn't(Charles Smith) we got rid of him. Isiah is starting to figure this out but still hasn't truly accepted it. But I do think his initial view of New Yorkers as loving And1 teams is a thing of the past and that he is learning.
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misterearl
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5/1/2007  3:49 PM
Glossary

Nail biter - game decided by one point with lots of passion at the end

Close game - game decided within 5 points

Game That Kept Fans In Seats - game decided in the last two minutes - anything under 10 points, hey that's only three 3's and a free throw

(did he really say quasi-blowout?)

sheesh

Game That You Switched The Channel - anything between 15 to 19 points difference

Blowout - game decided by more than 20 points

Closed door team meeting - game decided by more than 25 points

once a knick always a knick
MS
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5/1/2007  3:57 PM
I go to Knicks games for two players mainly and that Lee and Balkman, and to a lesser extent Marbury.

I think fans look for positives that they can build around and are tolerant when they see players that fit the mold.

Perfect example of this team: Meet the Team Event

MIA: Curry, Francis, Balkman, Crawford (2 years in a row), Q

Very Rude: Nate, Jefferies got up and left, Marbury showed up an hour late

We can tolerate not being good enough, but not a bunch of punks who think they are gods gift to the earth. I don't need to see the same tired basketball ie, nate throwing games away, crawford firing from half court, eddy not rotating on defense, frye getting pushed around in the post and Marbury with a towel over his head. Fans didn't boo because they hate the team. When you get waxed by 30 the year before on your home opener and then come out and don't give the effort in your opener the next year, those players should have been thrown in prison and fined.

Isiah: He makes excuses and excuses give losers a reason to not strive for their best and guess what, in nba standards, Marbury, Curry, Crawford are all losers. And they bought into the injury talk, the allstar snubs, the vendetta against the league, karl trying to embarrash them, skiles rubbing it in, etc. Which is why you can't rebuild with children
misterearl
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5/1/2007  4:03 PM
MS - hey, blame Camby for starting the sheik-towel thingie

Marbury had a decent season and played thorough pain

now, if we can just cut those durn turnovers....
once a knick always a knick
Cookdcokehop
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5/1/2007  4:27 PM
Posted by MS:

If your boss gave you a franchise told you he wanted to win now and did not want rebuild and told you spending money was not a problem because he was a millionaire, what would your team look like? Zeke did what he was told. Layden was givent eh same set of rules. If he tried to rebuild in NY the Knicks would have lost a **** load of money and Zeke would of lost his job a long time ago. Dolan knows he has alot to do with how the Knicks are right now, so now him and Zeke are working together to make "intelligent" moves that will benefit the franchise. If you have no patience then change ya fav. team. Im here for the long haul, I got faith in this experiment.

Quite possibly the dumbest thing i have ever read, maybe? So that warrants signing low impact players for big dollars with the midlevel, trading for a guy with back problems, heart issues, attitude issues.

If your rebuilding your not making the playoffs its that simple, and we haven't made the playoffs for a very long time, and i don't count the ass pounding the nets gave us because we are under .500. If you have money to spend you spend it one the right pieces you don't just get overpaid agin players that don't contribute to overal success

How would the knicks have lost money, the only year the fans didn't come was the begining of this one and its quite evident Zeke is a slime ball with no concrete plan. So he has a fee role players, boderline starters to go with a center who does one thing well. Thats a long term plan, please? Having faith in Isiah is absurd, and switching teams is not an option because some used car salesman is running our franchise


Marbury 26 year old All star point guard. Crawford 23 year old guard avg about 16 and 4 and who dropped 50 in his last game before being traded here. He was supposed to back up Allan Houston, who was expected to still be playing. Curry avg 16 and 6 and was in the best shape of his career. Steve Francis Allstar guard. Q Rich sharpshooter and rebounding guard. Tim Thomas former 6th man of the year. These are HUGE additions you cannot blame Zeke because they did not pan out. If I told you the Knicks had this roster 6 years ago, you would have lost your mind. As I said before, if money was a issue to Dolan then none of these deals would have been made.

Now that the Knicks realize that did not work they are trying Plan B, which is the traditional way of rebuilding. Sign young players that are fundamentally sound with high upside and let them progress. This will take about 3-4 years. But with Zeke draftibng track record I have nothing but optimism towards this new Plan.

As for the losing money issue...by bringing these BIG name players to a BIG market, you get BIG bucks from merchandising. (Business Major). Dolan loves him some money.

I have faith in Zeke turning around this franchise, and guess what with that 4 YEAR EXTENSION he is not going anywhere soon. LOL get used to it!!!!!!!!
MS
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5/1/2007  4:51 PM

Marbury 26 year old All star point guard.
-Givin up four picks, two euros, 50 million in added salary, for a guy that has had a slew of problems with teammates

Crawford 23 year old guard avg about 16 and 4 and who dropped 50 in his last game before being traded here. (Shot 40%, had to take on jerome williams and his 3 remaining years, sign vin baker and give him a 7year deal when no one was bitting)

He was supposed to back up Allan Houston, who was expected to still be playing.

Curry avg 16 and 6 (5.4rbs) and was in the best shape of his career.
-Best shape of his career, puts on close to 40 pounds in the offseason, has a heart problem, teams with cap space didn't sign him and we gave up two lottery picks

Steve Francis Allstar guard.
-Where in China perhaps, just because you play next to yao and make the team by default doesn't mean your an allstar. How about Steve Francis threatened to retire on draft night, had problems with Rudy T, clashed with Van Gundy, destroyed the orlando lockeroom, missed time with a knee injurt

Q Rich sharpshooter and rebounding guard.-with a back so damaged that no insurance company would go near it and has a long term deal

Tim Thomas former 6th man of the year. -Paycheck player that takes half the season off doesn't play d, or care as long as he gets his money

These are HUGE additions you cannot blame Zeke because they did not pan out. If I told you the Knicks had this roster 6 years ago, you would have lost your mind.

What the **** are you talking about, so if i told you the heat with walker, payton, mourning was 6 years ago, or the knicks with penny, marbury, an injured houston were all heathly things would be different.

I guess you can't fault someone when everyone of their deals backfires and saddles the team with contracts you can't move?

If you look at these guys, ask yourself how many of them are tough minded players who you would enjoy playing with if you were out there? So there is your answer and there is your blame
Cookdcokehop
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5/1/2007  10:41 PM
Zeke is staying it doesnt matter so what your saying is irrelavant. Leave the dead horse alone. Let's just hope the Knicks can continue to progress and bring in cornerstone players for the franchise.
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Why does Isiah still have supporters despite his 119-182 record with the Knicks?
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