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Solace
Posts: 10002
Joined: 10/30/2003
Member: #479
USA
For point of reference: Y Curry - 0.48:1 EC Zaza Pachulia - 1.35:1 EC Y Curry - 19.5 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 0.8 asts, 0.5 blk, 0.4 stl, 3.6 TO in 35 mpg Z Pachulia - 12.2 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 1.5 asts, 0.5 blk, 1.1 stl, 2.3 TO in 28 mpg P.S.: Eddy - D (no defense) - E (no effort) = Y ====> (Y Curry! Y oh why????)
Y
Zaza Pachulia
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Author Thread
Solace
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4/27/2007  1:44 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

I agree that there's a place for one dimensional specialists including Curry but they're just role players, they're not crucial, and you shouldn't give up much for them.

Exactly.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
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bigbeast
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4/27/2007  2:02 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Bippity10:

Yeah, I understand not wanting to build around Curry. That to me is fair and logical. I understand not being enamored with his game, because right now the truth is that he is only a scorer and does nothing else well. But you can't discredit him as a basketball player completely. There is room for one dimensional players in the NBa. Many have starred for championship teams. Curry is a tough low post scorer and does cause havoc for other teams whether you want to admit it or not.

The problem is that we need to build a team that takes advantage of his skills as we go forward instead of hoping that he becomes Bill Walton or Kareem or Shaq. He's never going to be a good passer. His reboounding will most likely always be below average(7 years to get himself to 7 rebounds a game). He's most likely never going to be a great defender. So let's build a team that can use his skills in the post. But has other players that can create havoc and make teams pay when they spend so much time defending Curry. Right now our mismash crew isn't built right.

Now I dare someone to find something unfair in that post.
I agree that there's a place for one dimensional specialists including Curry but they're just role players, they're not crucial, and you shouldn't give up much for them.

If you know this about Curry, why do you constantly feel a need to bash him, instead of harping on Zeke and his over paying for Currys services? It seems as if most dump on Curry as if he was the one that pulled trigger on that trade.

BTW, Curry is better than an average role player.
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
technomaster
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4/27/2007  2:05 PM
I'm a little confused why assists are an important stat for big men who are called upon to finish, and why steals are that important.

When you think of big men you think about scoring, rebounding, and blocks. Assists and steals are just a bonus.

Anyway, I wonder if there were any other players in the last decade or so that have been so ineffective at TCL. When I think "black hole"... I think of these guys: Armon "The Hamma'" Gilliam, Wayman Tisdale, and Chris Gatling.

I'll be back for more when I have a chance to look up their numbers, especially early in their careers.
“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
ramtour420
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Russian Federation
4/27/2007  2:32 PM
i thought center was the biggest guy on the team? If we had both Ewing and Curry i'd imagine Eddy would play at PF .Also i'd think that there are less big men in the nba that are incredible at scoring than those that are incredible at rebounding, blocking, help defense. My guess is thats because its easier and you don't have to be built like a truck to learn to bound,block and help out on D. Also it seems like almost all big men in nba are not complete players, either concentrating on offense or defense.
Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
RemBee76
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4/27/2007  2:47 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

I agree that there's a place for one dimensional specialists including Curry but they're just role players, they're not crucial, and you shouldn't give up much for them.

Right because guys as dominant in the post as Curry are a dime a dozen...oh, ummm...well, its not like you can build an offense around a dominant post scorer...oh, wait...well, did I mention I really like Zaza's first name?

You Earl, where you at man?

Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
Bippity10
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4/27/2007  2:48 PM
The problem with our situation is this. With Curry being one dimensional, we need another star that can carry the ballclub on the perimeter. A player that clearly has to be better than Stephon. Or we just have to build the perfect complimentary team(which is near impossible). The easiest route of the two is to find another star. But with MLE's and late round draft picks and good role players, how do you turn that into a star?

Right now we are stockpiling role players around a 1 dimensional star. I understand the optimism when it comes to the young guys, because there are some solid players there. But eventually we have to find a way to get a star player. Outside of trading the Lee's and the Balkman's of the world I'm not sure how anything besides luck is going to get it done.
I just hope that people will like me
Bonn1997
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4/27/2007  2:48 PM
Posted by bigbeast:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Bippity10:

Yeah, I understand not wanting to build around Curry. That to me is fair and logical. I understand not being enamored with his game, because right now the truth is that he is only a scorer and does nothing else well. But you can't discredit him as a basketball player completely. There is room for one dimensional players in the NBa. Many have starred for championship teams. Curry is a tough low post scorer and does cause havoc for other teams whether you want to admit it or not.

The problem is that we need to build a team that takes advantage of his skills as we go forward instead of hoping that he becomes Bill Walton or Kareem or Shaq. He's never going to be a good passer. His reboounding will most likely always be below average(7 years to get himself to 7 rebounds a game). He's most likely never going to be a great defender. So let's build a team that can use his skills in the post. But has other players that can create havoc and make teams pay when they spend so much time defending Curry. Right now our mismash crew isn't built right.

Now I dare someone to find something unfair in that post.
I agree that there's a place for one dimensional specialists including Curry but they're just role players, they're not crucial, and you shouldn't give up much for them.

If you know this about Curry, why do you constantly feel a need to bash him, instead of harping on Zeke and his over paying for Currys services? It seems as if most dump on Curry as if he was the one that pulled trigger on that trade.

BTW, Curry is better than an average role player.
Curry's no Steven Kerr. He could actually be a great player if he wasn't always out of shape and lazy on the court. No doubt Isiah deserves a ton of criticism too and so does Dolan.
technomaster
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4/27/2007  2:52 PM
I checked. These black hole players aren't really as bad I remember them to be, at least in comparison to Curry!

What really stands out about Curry is that for a guy his size (he's bigger than Gilliam, and brawnier than Gatling), he doesn't "accidentally" block more shots... and for a player with world-class hands, loose ball in the paint don't accidentally end up in his hands more often. Though more importantly, he averages nearly twice as many turnovers as these players!

Armon Gilliam, 2nd year (age 24)
.7apg, .7spg, 0.4bpg, 1.9to/g... .947 Curry Line
Career:
1.2apg, .7spg, .7bpg, 1.9to/g... 1.37 Curry Line

Gatling (career numbers):
.7apg, .7spg, .5bpg, 1.5to/g... 1.26 Curry Line

Chris Gatling is probably one of the worst assist guys I've seen who was actively involved in the offense end. In each of the seasons where he averaged 19.0+, he only averaged .6apg. However, he was clearly given the 6th man/instant offense role - he only averaged over 30mpg once in his career in 11 seasons.
Gatling is also one of the worst shot-blocking big men ever. At 6'10", averaging 19.7mpg over his career, he averaged only .5 bpg. Anemic.

The thing about Curry is that he actually passes the ball back out of the post a fair amount. He just doesn't make the pass that leads to the shot - he makes the safe pass.
“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
Bippity10
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4/27/2007  2:56 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by bigbeast:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Bippity10:

Yeah, I understand not wanting to build around Curry. That to me is fair and logical. I understand not being enamored with his game, because right now the truth is that he is only a scorer and does nothing else well. But you can't discredit him as a basketball player completely. There is room for one dimensional players in the NBa. Many have starred for championship teams. Curry is a tough low post scorer and does cause havoc for other teams whether you want to admit it or not.

The problem is that we need to build a team that takes advantage of his skills as we go forward instead of hoping that he becomes Bill Walton or Kareem or Shaq. He's never going to be a good passer. His reboounding will most likely always be below average(7 years to get himself to 7 rebounds a game). He's most likely never going to be a great defender. So let's build a team that can use his skills in the post. But has other players that can create havoc and make teams pay when they spend so much time defending Curry. Right now our mismash crew isn't built right.

Now I dare someone to find something unfair in that post.
I agree that there's a place for one dimensional specialists including Curry but they're just role players, they're not crucial, and you shouldn't give up much for them.

If you know this about Curry, why do you constantly feel a need to bash him, instead of harping on Zeke and his over paying for Currys services? It seems as if most dump on Curry as if he was the one that pulled trigger on that trade.

BTW, Curry is better than an average role player.
Curry's no Steven Kerr. He could actually be a great player if he wasn't always out of shape and lazy on the court. No doubt Isiah deserves a ton of criticism too and so does Dolan.

For me the biggest problem with Curry is this. Based on athletic ability and size that guy could average 10, 11 and 12 rebounds tomorrow if he put his mind to it. This isn't a part of his game where he has some sort of physical disadvantage. He has an advantage over 90% of the league when it comes to rebounding. He can come out next year and challenge for the league lead in rebounding. Yet he averages 7 rebounds a game. Until this changes I can't take him seriously as a star of the future. The double teams we can fix. The offensive fouls we can fix. But the rebounding and shotblocking Curry has to fix.

And this is the guy that we gave up 2 lottery picks for. I'm not bashing Curry, I'm just trying to figure out where we go from here. We are staring mediocrity in the face like we were 7 years ago when we traded Pat. But as an organization and a fan base a lot of people don't really want to admit it. Until we get a 2 way star on this roster there is a ceiling. And until we put ourselves in position by obtaining high draft picks, or cap space or trading our productive youth, we have to rely on Curry suddenly getting it one day and turning up the effort. it's not talent with him, it's effort. He could be an all-star tomorrow if he put his mind to it. This is why he has so many critics. It's nothing personal. People just hate when players don't reach their potential.

To me you can argue that he will develop a devastating post game. You can argue that he will learn to pass out of the post. But the shotblocking and rebounding are things that can improve right now. And the fact that they are so bad has nothing to do with referees or fans booing or negativity on a chat board. And have everything to do with Eddy not getting it done.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 27-04-2007 3:06 PM]
I just hope that people will like me
BlueSeats
Posts: 27272
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Member: #1024

4/27/2007  3:04 PM
Posted by misterearl:

BlueSeats - hey, i never said I was perfect

then again, given the context, I thought "crybaby" was kinda flattering.


As was "whiney hypocrite".
JrZyHuStLa
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Member: #1241

4/27/2007  3:11 PM
You know Eddy Curry sucks when you have a poll which tries to compare him with Zaza Pachulia.
RemBee76
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4/27/2007  3:18 PM
Hey, when the trade first went down there were some perfectly intelligent guys in the national media making sincere plus-minus comparisons between Curry and Sweetney.

Doesn't mean they didn't have their heads up their arses.
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
BlueSeats
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4/27/2007  3:56 PM
Posted by RemBee76:

Hey, when the trade first went down there were some perfectly intelligent guys in the national media making sincere plus-minus comparisons between Curry and Sweetney.

Doesn't mean they didn't have their heads up their arses.

Likewise the optimistic knicks fans who were sincerely comparing Sweetney to Brand and Barkley before the trade.

RemBee76
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4/27/2007  4:12 PM
You got that straw man to keep the crows away, Blue, or does he keep you warm at night?
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
Solace
Posts: 30002
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Member: #479
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4/27/2007  4:16 PM
Posted by RemBee76:

You got that straw man to keep the crows away, Blue, or does he keep you warm at night?

Dude, you're seriously trolling. Which more well-known name do we know you by? Too harsh speak for a newbie.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
RemBee76
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4/27/2007  4:22 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by RemBee76:

You got that straw man to keep the crows away, Blue, or does he keep you warm at night?

Too harsh speak for a newbie.

Why you say? I speak good, me like this country.

Check out the Joined date, amigo. I’m senior statesman here so why am I feeling like a potted plant? Or am I just potted?
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
BlueSeats
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Joined: 11/6/2005
Member: #1024

4/27/2007  4:32 PM
Posted by technomaster:

I checked. These black hole players aren't really as bad I remember them to be, at least in comparison to Curry!

What really stands out about Curry is that for a guy his size (he's bigger than Gilliam, and brawnier than Gatling), he doesn't "accidentally" block more shots... and for a player with world-class hands, loose ball in the paint don't accidentally end up in his hands more often. Though more importantly, he averages nearly twice as many turnovers as these players!

Armon Gilliam, 2nd year (age 24)
.7apg, .7spg, 0.4bpg, 1.9to/g... .947 Curry Line
Career:
1.2apg, .7spg, .7bpg, 1.9to/g... 1.37 Curry Line

Gatling (career numbers):
.7apg, .7spg, .5bpg, 1.5to/g... 1.26 Curry Line

Chris Gatling is probably one of the worst assist guys I've seen who was actively involved in the offense end. In each of the seasons where he averaged 19.0+, he only averaged .6apg. However, he was clearly given the 6th man/instant offense role - he only averaged over 30mpg once in his career in 11 seasons.
Gatling is also one of the worst shot-blocking big men ever. At 6'10", averaging 19.7mpg over his career, he averaged only .5 bpg. Anemic.

The thing about Curry is that he actually passes the ball back out of the post a fair amount. He just doesn't make the pass that leads to the shot - he makes the safe pass.


good research.

FWIW, below is a graphical comparison of their efficiency ratings. Unfortunately they only provide Eddy's first three years, but we do know his EFF this year (his 6th) was 16.2. This puts him below what the other's achieved by their 4th year (perhaps due to Eddy coming in younger) and well below all of their peaks.


Gatling peaked at 18.1, Gilliam at 19.5, and Tisdale at 21.2.

So Eddy has a ways to go to be in the class of other memorable big-man "ball hogs".

BlueSeats
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4/27/2007  4:38 PM
Posted by RemBee76:

You got that straw man to keep the crows away, Blue, or does he keep you warm at night?

Another hypocrite.

You were the one who brought sweetney and writers into the conversation, so you obviously prefer to chew straw than Curry.

Did misterearl recruit you?

[Edited by - blueseats on 04-27-2007 4:41 PM]
misterearl
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4/27/2007  4:42 PM
>>Hey Earl, what are you doing over here with these charity cases?

Just keeping my game sharp in the offseason homes.

I heard that charity started with the home team. Heck, SOMEBODY hasta champion the cause for positive Knicks vibes or else what you'd be left with is a bunch of doubters claiming the world is flat.

Besides, decent fun-lovin' cats like nixluva and BigBeast just need someone to keep the hyenas at bay once in a while

Damn it's good to read you rembee.

once a knick always a knick
RemBee76
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4/27/2007  4:48 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by RemBee76:

You got that straw man to keep the crows away, Blue, or does he keep you warm at night?

You were the one who brought sweetney and writers into the conversation, so you obviously prefer to chew straw than Curry.

[Edited by - blueseats on 04-27-2007 4:41 PM]

Sorry, but what does that even mean? You guys speak English here, or is this a board set up to help ESL students practice.

Specifically, I was referring to ESPN's John Hollinger (I believe) who wrote a piece evaluating the trade and predicted that Curry and Sweetney's production would be comparable. Point being, any self serving horse's behind can make the comparison, doesn't mean it makes any sense.

Comprende?


Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
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