Posted by BlueSeats:

I'm not a fan of Imus, the sentiments he expressed, or the words he chose, but I must say, to my unlearned ears, the phrase he used sounds like he's parodying "hood talk," for lack of a better term.

This is not to defend him in the least, but such expressions are to be diminished or removed from our culture shouldn't their dissolution begin within the black community immediately - particularly the more media intensive and influential elements of it - like mainstream music, comedy and film?

I can't speak deeply about what goes on in "the hood," or anywhere else in the "black community" outside of the middle-classish and integrated friends that I have, but I can tell you amongst the whites that I know, very few refer to women of ANY race as "hoes" and "b!tches".

So I have to say I feel that some are trying to have it both ways when they say it's a fireable offense for one race to say such things against another, but have little complaint when said routinely by someone of the same race.

For instance, how often do you hear a prominent Jewish lawyer call another a "sneaky shyster"? Very rarely, and when it does happen I suspect the Jewish community would be the first to reprimand him. They keep that shyt buttoned up. But let's imagine that they didn't, and it became commonplace for prominent Jews to call each other racial slurs in the lucrative media (which they often own, like the movie biz) such that it became hip or popular (again, for lack of better terms,) who could not expect other races to hop in to join the fun and be part of the hip crowd? Imagine if people like Ben Stiller, Jerry Steinfeld, David Schwimmer, and other prominent Jewish actors and business people called each other "shyta's" and referred to their women as "sluts". Anyone doubt that talk would propagate and become commonplace.

And this is what happens when "nappy headed hoes" talk is propagated BY BLACKS in the popular media of music, TV comedy and film.

Sure the mistereals, Tavis Smileys, Barack Obamas, etc of the world would never publicly call that basketball team "nappy headed hoes," but can you say the same for Wanda Sykes, Chris Rock, 50cent, and a zillion other folks out there who are setting the tone for what is acceptable in popular culture?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but are you suggesting that Imus' actions are "excusable" because black people may use similar language? Why doesn't he use the 'N' word freely then since that is something that is far more popular than the phrase he used, which based on my knowledge is never used in a positive manner. The thing is the point (I believe) you are making, while understandably recognizable on the surface, is moot because ignorance (if that is the case here) does not offer a blank check for one to perform a damaging action and expect to not face any consequences. If you yourself say that among the white friends you know that they don't use that language, what makes the perception of that being said by some blacks by Imus or anyone else reason to defend his comments?

I think earl is on point by saying that in the past people were more upfront and honest about racism. Imus, Michael Richards, and other white "shock jocks"/comedians say things that seem "extreme" but somehow really relate to what is REALLY going on in people's minds. While most whites may not say these things aloud, I'd argue that it is the case that these thoughts sometimes are going on underneath the surface, and pop up from time to time in these types of instances, as well as through slips of the tongue, such as in Joe Biden's comments about Obama and emotional responses defending such content.

Some ask, "Why is it that white people can't make fun of black people but they can of us?" This is a response seeded in the lack of knowledge and understanding of what racism is and how it functions. Part of the problem is that we don't have an agreement on how to define racism, but I'd argue that it is a lot more than "prejudice" or "bias." It deals with power, privilege and economics. It can be systematic, subtle, and in institutions, as well as appear in behavior that is not seen as bigoted by the group in power when they engage in it.

In terms of the point about some black comedians and artists use of what you call "hood talk," which I believe you are suggesting is demeaning, versus Jewish comedieans, this also relates to the differences in history and where these ideas come from. Black people in this country have been demeaned by whites as "h**s" and "sl**s" stemming from slavery, and came as a people from multiple cultures/traditions of Africa which whites tried to erase from their memory, even before they stepped foot on a slave ship. (Eastern European) Jews on the other hand may have mostly come from tragic backgrounds, they did come here by their own right, and were able to maintain unity through maintaining ties through their religion and culture (which is a HUGELY important to Judaism, as I asume some here know). These different backgrounds play a significant role in the image of ones own group.

In the case of someone like Chris Rock, he is not what I'd call the best example because a lot of his humor, like Dave Chappelle, is intended on pointing out racism in society. However, groups do speak differently amongst themselves than they do with others, even in gender groups (like men may speak differently towards themselves than with women), and since blacks do not possess power in society one of the few outlets for expression of power can be through language. Another issue is to think about what socio-racial group overwhelmingly owns the businesses that portray African-Americans in such ways that we see in movies like 'Soul Plane' while black film makers struggle to have movies that avoid negative stereotypes of blacks financed, and black actors struggle to find roles that also don't fall into these stereotypes (See: Public Enemy's 'Burn Hollywood Burn!' or Spike Lee's 'Bamboozled') or record labels that won't sign/promote hip-hop artists who don't fit into the negative stereotypes of blacks we currently see in commercial rap today essentially silencing other black voices/artists because they won't "sell."

It should be said that there are blacks who criticize/have criticized some in their own communities about portraying negative stereotypes of their own socio-racial group, but certainly this is not the only thing to be concerned with, especially if you are not black and when whites tend to focus on this rather than look at their own selves and their own potential contribution to racism in society (whether it be conscious of white privilege and power, or why one is so quick to deny cries of racism from people who have actually experienced it, or think racism is about being a "good" or "bad" white and have desires to "help" black people fit into "white" society).

[Edited by - PresIke on 04-08-2007 2:57 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 04-08-2007 2:58 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 04-08-2007 2:59 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 04-08-2007 3:27 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 04-08-2007 3:27 PM]

Posted by bobs3304:

^ oh shutup.


Stern does it too.

So do Opie and Anthony.


It's called shock jock.

"Shock jock" indeed...
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=22&media_view_id=8554

(2/22/07) by Greg Bean

Proclaiming their "Jersey Guys" to be "America's most listened-to FM afternoon show," the radio station that defended its deejays attacking "damn Orientals and Indians" in 2005 recently faxed newspapers about their new "La Cuca Gotcha" feature, timed "to coincide with Cinco de Mayo." A derogatory pun of the folk song title La Cucaracha—which means ****roach in Spanish—the event encourages listeners to notify the station and immigration authorities about people they perceive to be undocumented immigrants. Even an editor who thinks his state has "a real problem with illegal immigrants" knows that "something as stupid and offensive as 'Operation La Cuca Gotcha' will do absolutely nothing to solve it."

The object of this program is apparently to get the day laborers waiting in the cold for work... arrested and sent back to where they came from. And in order to make that happen, the station wants their listeners to become snitches and stoolies for the feds.... It will not make us one bit "safer" as the station suggests. It only feeds from the vein of ugly racism that lies much too close to the surface... and provides both affirmation and expression for that bigotry and lynch mob mentality. - Sayreville Suburban

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by PresIke:

Posted by BlueSeats:

I'm not a fan of Imus, the sentiments he expressed, or the words he chose, but I must say, to my unlearned ears, the phrase he used sounds like he's parodying "hood talk," for lack of a better term.

This is not to defend him in the least, but such expressions are to be diminished or removed from our culture shouldn't their dissolution begin within the black community immediately - particularly the more media intensive and influential elements of it - like mainstream music, comedy and film?

I can't speak deeply about what goes on in "the hood," or anywhere else in the "black community" outside of the middle-classish and integrated friends that I have, but I can tell you amongst the whites that I know, very few refer to women of ANY race as "hoes" and "b!tches".

So I have to say I feel that some are trying to have it both ways when they say it's a fireable offense for one race to say such things against another, but have little complaint when said routinely by someone of the same race.

For instance, how often do you hear a prominent Jewish lawyer call another a "sneaky shyster"? Very rarely, and when it does happen I suspect the Jewish community would be the first to reprimand him. They keep that shyt buttoned up. But let's imagine that they didn't, and it became commonplace for prominent Jews to call each other racial slurs in the lucrative media (which they often own, like the movie biz) such that it became hip or popular (again, for lack of better terms,) who could not expect other races to hop in to join the fun and be part of the hip crowd? Imagine if people like Ben Stiller, Jerry Steinfeld, David Schwimmer, and other prominent Jewish actors and business people called each other "shyta's" and referred to their women as "sluts". Anyone doubt that talk would propagate and become commonplace.

And this is what happens when "nappy headed hoes" talk is propagated BY BLACKS in the popular media of music, TV comedy and film.

Sure the mistereals, Tavis Smileys, Barack Obamas, etc of the world would never publicly call that basketball team "nappy headed hoes," but can you say the same for Wanda Sykes, Chris Rock, 50cent, and a zillion other folks out there who are setting the tone for what is acceptable in popular culture?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but are you suggesting that Imus' actions are "excusable" because black people may use similar language? Why doesn't he use the 'N' word freely then since that is something that is far more popular than the phrase he used, which based on my knowledge is never used in a positive manner. The thing is the point (I believe) you are making, while understandably recognizable on the surface, is moot because ignorance (if that is the case here) does not offer a blank check for one to perform a damaging action and expect to not face any consequences. If you yourself say that among the white friends you know that they don't use that language, what makes the perception of that being said by some blacks by Imus or anyone else reason to defend his comments?

I think earl is on point by saying that in the past people were more upfront and honest about racism. Imus, Michael Richards, and other white "shock jocks"/comedians say things that seem "extreme" but somehow really relate to what is REALLY going on in people's minds. While most whites may not say these things aloud, but I'd argue that it is the case that these thoughts sometimes are going on underneath the surface, but pop up from time to time in this type of instances, as well as through slips of the tongue, such as in Biden's comments about Obama and emotional responses defending such content.

Some ask, "Why is it that white people can't make fun of black people but they can of us?" This is a response seeded in the lack of knowledge and understanding of what racism is and how it functions. Part of the problem is that we don't have an agreement on how to define racism, but I'd argue that it is a lot more than "prejudice" or "bias." It deals with power, privilege and economics. It can be systematic, subtle, and in institutions, as well as appear in behavior that is not seen as bigoted by the group in power when they engage in it.

In terms of the point about some black comedians and artists use of what you call "hood talk," which I believe you are suggesting is demeaning, versus Jewish comedieans, this also relates to the differences in history and where these ideas come from. Black people in this country have been demeaned by whites as "h**s" and "sl**s" stemming from slavery, and came as a people from multiple cultures/traditions of Africa which whites tried to erase from their memory, even before they stepped foot on a slave ship. (Eastern European) Jews on the other hand may have mostly come from tragic backgrounds, they did come here by their own right, and were able to maintain unity through maintaining ties through their religion and culture (which is a HUGELY important to Judaism, as I asume some here know). These different backgrounds play a significant role in the image of ones own group.

In the case of someone like Chris Rock, he is not what I'd call the best example because a lot of his humor, like Dave Chappelle, is intended on pointing out racism in society. However, groups do speak differently amongst themselves than they do with others, even in gender groups (like men may speak differently towards themselves than with women), and since blacks do not possess power in society one of the few outlets for expression of power can be through language. Another issue is to think about what socio-racial group overwhelmingly owns the businesses that portray African-Americans in such ways that we see in movies like 'Soul Plane' while black film makers struggle to have movies that avoid negative stereotypes of blacks financed, and black actors struggle to find roles that also don't fall into these stereotypes (See: Public Enemy's 'Burn Hollywood Burn!' or Spike Lee's 'Bamboozled') or record labels that won't sign/promote hip-hop artists who don't fit into the negative stereotypes of blacks we currently see in commercial rap today essentially silencing other black voices/artists because they won't "sell."

It should be said that there are blacks who criticize/have criticized some in their own communities about portraying negative stereotypes of their own socio-racial group, but certainly this is not the only thing to be concerned with, especially if you are not black and when whites tend to focus on this rather than look at their own selves and their own potential contribution to racism in society (whether it be conscious of white privilege and power, or why one is so quick to deny cries of racism from people who have actually experienced it, or think racism is about being a "good" or "bad" white and have desires to "help" black people fit into "white" society).

[Edited by - PresIke on 04-08-2007 2:57 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 04-08-2007 2:58 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 04-08-2007 2:59 PM]

Ike, you can see from my bolding that my only mentions of Imus were to say I do not defend him. Nor do I anywhere suggest that the actions of blacks justify the same actions by whites.

However, I think it's a dangerous game that's being played when a race promulgates such expressions themselves, through cross-over and mainstream media, while demanding they be rooted-out at large. I think it's foolhearty for some (and it's a supposition that there are any) to vehemently demand Imus be removed by day, while then paying good money to delight in hearing similar things being said by blacks about themselves at night. Of course it's easier to take coming from one of your own, but why condemn the few while celebrating the many?

My example is the Jews, who I find much more careful NOT not to popularize slanderous humor about themselves - other than perhaps men being "cheap," girls being "princesses," and moms overfeeding and being manipulative through guilt. When they DO allow that of themselves, it's not my opinion that it is then okay for another race to say that of them, but nor should they be shocked and horrified when they do when they themselves are effectively legitimizing it.

I guess I'm saying each race needs to be careful of, and responsible for, the image of themselves that they project.

Perhaps a playful analogy comes from a scene in 'Rush Hour 2', where Jackie Chan comes over from Hong Kong and is learning the ropes of "the street" from Chris Tucker. They go into a bar and Tucker says to the patrons "what's up my niggas?" and they show him love, then Jackie follows suit and they kick his azz. It probably doesn't apply to a grown, travelled man, like Imus, but there are a lot of impressionable "followers" in our society that become impregnated by what is becoming mainstream jargon, and there are going to be a lot of confusing "thin ice" type situations among people just trying to be cool and fit in.

I'm of the opinion that if/when we, as a society, have evolved beyond racism we will be able to joke about each other in good humor and comfort, and the same rules will apply between races. We obviously aren't there yet, but I am confused, in my heart, over which will get us there faster between becoming more vigilant in our restriction of humor vs more relaxed. Having not studied the subject I'm open to having my opinion being influenced.

Take a show like 'All In The Family'. That was designed to enlighten us through poking fun at racism. Was it effective, or was it evil? Did it show us the folly of our ways, or merely influence people to call each other "dingbat," "Polack," "Itralians," etc.

I don't know the answer, I suspect a little of both...

Those are very good observations by Blueseats. Personally (and this is up for debate), I feel like vigilance and deterence go hand in hand. I'm very cynical about the capacity of the general public to make good decisions in general (probably the influence of seeing psychiatric patients) and its these "impressionable followers" that inevitably have a collectively large impact, though they don't know it. Human beings look for approval by nature and it gets to a point where even analytical people get initiated in harmful behavior. Looking at things like alcohol use during and after prohibition, I'm inclined to believe that people need an external pressure to override the negative influence of their peers.

Posted by bitty41:

Posted by BlueSeats:

I'm not a fan of Imus, the sentiments he expressed, or the words he chose, but I must say, to my unlearned ears, the phrase he used sounds like he's parodying "hood talk," for lack of a better term.

This is not to defend him in the least, but such expressions are to be diminished or removed from our culture shouldn't their dissolution begin within the black community immediately - particularly the more media intensive and influential elements of it - like mainstream music, comedy and film?

I can't speak deeply about what goes on in "the hood," or anywhere else in the "black community" outside of the middle-classish and integrated friends that I have, but I can tell you amongst the whites that I know, very few refer to women of ANY race as "hoes" and "b!tches".

So I have to say I feel that some are trying to have it both ways when they say it's a fireable offense for one race to say such things against another, but have little complaint when said routinely by someone of the same race.

For instance, how often do you hear a prominent Jewish lawyer call another a "sneaky shyster"? Very rarely, and when it does happen I suspect the Jewish community would be the first to reprimand him. They keep that shyt buttoned up. But let's imagine that they didn't, and it became commonplace for prominent Jews to call each other racial slurs in the lucrative media (which they often own, like the movie biz) such that it became hip or popular (again, for lack of better terms,) who could not expect other races to hop in to join the fun and be part of the hip crowd? Imagine if people like Ben Stiller, Jerry Steinfeld, David Schwimmer, and other prominent Jewish actors and business people called each other "shyta's" and referred to their women as "sluts". Anyone doubt that talk would propagate and become commonplace.

And this is what happens when "nappy headed hoes" talk is propagated BY BLACKS in the popular media of music, TV comedy and film.

Sure the mistereals, Tavis Smileys, Barack Obamas, etc of the world would never publicly call that basketball team "nappy headed hoes," but can you say the same for Wanda Sykes, Chris Rock, 50cent, and a zillion other folks out there who are setting the tone for what is acceptable in popular culture?

I think you make some very valid points however I think you are completely off base about this. First off if I used the language that Imus used at my job I would be fired no questions asked. I wonder how many people on here could use similar language at their job and not be handed their pink slip. Secondly black culture is not strictly about rap music, exploitation comedy, and movies involving some sort of negative portrayal of blacks. Did you ever wonder why it is that most black centric movies and a great deal of popular black artist in this country usually Representative of the negative side of black culture? For example Denzel wins an Oscar for playing a corrupt cop but he doesn't win an Oscar for his uplifting portrayal of "Hurricane" or his role as a passionate attorney in "Philadelphia"? Another example I'm sure a lot of people on here like him but Chris Rock to me does strictly exploitative comedy. People are just falling over with laughter when he does a routine on crack heads. I think this whole comedy thing is further evidenced when you look at Dave Chappelle's reasons for not wanting to continue the show. Comedy Central pushed for him to do more skits on basically making fun of black people and our "wacky ways".
Because black folks "acting up" sells in this country and it isn't just black people buying it. Believe me just looking at make-up of the American population black people represent a very small market in comparison to other groups. Where am I leading with this whole point well my point is that black culture is not strictly about gangs, pimps, hos, etc and im sure your black friends your black friends also do not refer to woman as ho's. It is not justified for someone to refer to a black woman as a "nappyheaded ho" because its used supposedly throughout black society. And racial terms are not the only derogatory terms that are pervasive throughout the media. I've heard the word c*nt, a**hole, mother****er, and a host of a bunch others throughout on various television shows and movies. Again I question whether you would consider that apprioate language to be used at work or a talk radio show?

Finally im tired of people telling blacks whats the big deal "Jay Z" says it or whoever else because you know what thats not the way I talk nor my family or friends talk. You don't need to be a black intellectual like Obama or Tavis Smiley to know not to use certain language. Ho's, niggas, or any other term you want through out there is the language of ignorant people regardless if their black, white, brown, yellow, purple, or whatever. No black person with a half amount of sense would ever use that language in a professional setting and if they did they should be looking for new employment. Yet Imus he gets a pass because he's funny, or maybe its because he's always making sexist, racists, remarks. Some maybe people have become desensitized to his inflammatory comments.
But I bet you if Katie Couric or Bryant Gumbel (who is black) said that on a National Newscast they would be fired and finished professionally. Look if Imus wants to go home and say spew racists and sexist remarks knock yourself out but intelligent American citizens should have a little more sense than to look for justifications for the guy instead of calling for his head like a "civilized" society would do.

But bitty, where are we in disagreement?

Posted by simrud:

Imus is a racist, no doubt about it. Nothing excuses him.

Sugar Ray was actually praising Jews. I don't know how you can say he is racist if he is MARRIED to a Jewish woman. Sometimes people of another race feel they can say things that are true but politically incorrect because of personal affiliations. I have been down that road before myself. So I would not hold it against Sugar Ray.

If Imus said the N word, and people got mad, regardless of the context, there might be some argument. But what he said was simply racist. It is not like black women call each other nappy headed hoes. So you can't even compare this to the N word. What Imus said far worse in my opinion.

Good post.

to me humor's a vital part of life and a vital part of how people bond as a group and deal with issues and struggles as a group. But someone outside a group simplycannot make the same jokes that in-group members can. Jackie mason does entire broadway shows busting on the jews. And he's hysterical. But someone outside the group couldn't do that humor. Same for chris rock's humor.

I don't listen to imus so I don't know his shtick. But how could he possibly make those comments without knowing they'd be very hurtful and provoke anger?

And this is what happens when "nappy headed hoes" talk is propagated BY BLACKS in the popular media of music, TV comedy and film.

This statement right here doesn't leave much room for interpretation right? Again I cann't speak to every song by every black artist or every black film but nappy headed hoes are serious?

Sure the mistereals, Tavis Smileys, Barack Obamas, etc of the world would never publicly call that basketball team "nappy headed hoes," but can you say the same for Wanda Sykes, Chris Rock, 50cent, and a zillion other folks out there who are setting the tone for what is acceptable in popular culture?

A zillion other folks is anyone even qualified to speak about what a "zillion other folks are supposedly saying? and particularly about another race?

Is it your position that there are no blacks who do?

Of course not but my point is that any person regardless of race with some basic decency would use that sort of language outside of maybe there home if at all. It sounds as though your taking the most ignorant of the population and using them as some sort of standard for a culture. Like I said you don't need to be running for President, an intellectual, or a talk show host to know the difference between what is acceptable language and disrepectful language.

I have never really followed Imus either.

But I can bet you that he has ripped a professional sports player for comments that that sports player may have said to reporters about issues or teammates or whatever.

I guess this one goest out to all professional sports players who weren't politicaly correct and were blasted by radio personalities.