Posted by TMS:

Posted by nixluva:

Posted by TMS:

Do you really think that if Steph passed the ball MORE that we'd win these games? You really think that?

yeah, i actually do think if he got his teammates involved more early & often, that it would help the team's chances of winning more games... & yeah, i think i know the game too... thanks though.

Tell me just what it is that these other guys are going to do with the ball when they get it and the other team is playing a zone? Who is it that is going to take the perimeter shots or break down the D to create a better scoring opportunity? How liable are they to turn it over considering the alarming rate at which we do that already? The only other guy available right now who can break a team down is Nate and his success rate isn't high enough. Mardy does it on occasion, but he's not yet fully comfortable. Almost none of the guys is comfortable catching and shooting. Frye has been lost and Jared is up and down with his success rate at this point. This isn't Toronto where you have shooters all over the place.

Just to be clear we're talking about the roster as it is right now. Not when we have all of our guys healthy.

my focus is on the big picture... by Marbury trusting his teammates to make plays & putting them into positions to score, i feel the overall improvement in the team is likely to be higher than if Marbury plays his "All Alone" style of ball he's playing now... the overall improvement of the team as a whole over the long haul is ALOT more important than seeing Marbury put up 30 a night & losing games anyway... i could care less what the score is if they're just going to lose games anyway... i'm looking at the big picture & having Marbury dominating the ball & playing 1 on 5 every night is not my idea of nurturing longterm success.

Steph HASN'T been dominating the ball all year. In fact since he's been here he hasn't really been playing that way. Not like he used to. He came here in his 1st year looking to pass and setup guys, which he did successfully. Then when Isiah changed the roster and H2O went down, we were left with guys who weren't dependable. That problem has been there ever since. Until recently. SO to look at this year in it's entirety and come up with the idea that he's dominating the ball is just flat wrong.

Lately he's changed his approach to being more aggressive. This is only a recent development due to the lack of enough scorers in the lineup. He hasn't been trying to play that way. He's been looking to get others involved, but right now this team doesn't have the horses to get that done. SO he's been asked to score more and take over to give the team a chance to win games.

Steph's career avg. shots per game is at 16, but this year he avg's 13 and last year 13 as well. The 2 years before 16.6 and 16.0. However in PHX and NJ he was taking more shots. NJ: 18.7, 17.8, 19.1. Phx: 17.2, 18.9 and 17.8 the year he came to the Knicks. He's clearly been taking fewer and fewer shots.

In addition his assist totals have dropped in part, because he's actually giving up the ball earlier. In addition to playing SG a bit more.

My point is that he's not dominatiing the ball as so many seem to think he is. Over the same period of time other guards in the league take more shots per game.

Arenas - 20.9
B Davis - 16.6
Mo Williams - 15.5
Mike Bibby - 14.5
Tony Parker - 14.3
Deron Williams - 13.8
Chris Paul - 13.6

i'm not talking about Marbury's play earlier in the season... i'm talking about how he's been playing since Jamal, Q & D Lee went down... he's trying to put the team on his shoulders & win games, but it's not working... since the point is always lost, i'll repeat it again for you... i'm NOT KNOCKING how hard he's been playing this year... i'm NOT KNOCKING the effort he's showing... i'm saying i don't feel that this team will benefit in the long run w/Marbury dominating the ball & trying to win games by himself... we need the team as a whole to play as a unit, & Marbury being the best player on the team needs to take it upon himself to focus more on sharing the ball & getting his teammates more involved going forward.

now since i'm pretty sure you're going to accuse me of hating on Marbury sometime soon in this discussion, i'll just leave it at that.

Posted by TMS:

i'm not talking about Marbury's play earlier in the season... i'm talking about how he's been playing since Jamal, Q & D Lee went down... he's trying to put the team on his shoulders & win games, but it's not working... since the point is always lost, i'll repeat it again for you... i'm NOT KNOCKING how hard he's been playing this year... i'm NOT KNOCKING the effort he's showing... i'm saying i don't feel that this team will benefit in the long run w/Marbury dominating the ball & trying to win games by himself... we need the team as a whole to play as a unit, & Marbury being the best player on the team needs to take it upon himself to focus more on sharing the ball & getting his teammates more involved going forward.

now since i'm pretty sure you're going to accuse me of hating on Marbury sometime soon in this discussion, i'll just leave it at that.

All i've been trying to say is that this is not the way he intends to play and he wasn't trying to play this way to start the year. This is a direct result of the injuries and Isiah ASKED HIM TO PLAY THIS WAY!!!

With regard to what TrueBlue said, I think it's just a matter of perception as to how into it Steph is when he's not scoring. Plus it's not fair to say that he ahsn't been defending VERY well this year. He's been solid and you must remember that he's constantly being run thru picks which and takes a pounding. If you add up all of those things and include the minutes played, the scoring load, taking on bigger guards and SF's, which HE DOES DO, directing the team, and scoring, that's an INCREDIBLE amount that is he's handling. To me it's utterly ridiculous that anyone could criticize him when he's giving so much effort and has been for a long time now. Even in the loss he had 30 pts, 7 rebs, 6 asts and 1 stl and played 45 minutes!!!!! DAMN that's a lot of not caring. Go look at his game logs since December and note that he's also been rebounding more, in addition to everything else he's been doing. logging heavy minutes as well. No matter whether he's a great defender or not, he's DEFINITELY improved and it's tangible.

The start of this thread to me was a slap in the face to a guy that tried to do everything he was asked this year and STILL some of you don't get it. It's not about Steph. It's about DEVELOPING the rest of this team so that he doesn't have to do all of that. it's gonna take time for these players to develop and for some more improvement of the roster as well. If the rest of the team can contribute and take up the slack in their own right, then all Steph has to do is manage the team, much like Billups. He doesn't have to tell the other guys what to do all game. They know their roles and are skilled enough to execute those roles. that's what we want the other players on this team to become. That's also what we miss with the FEW guys who can do that in Q, Jamal and Lee. Most of the remaining guys aren't that developed yet.

Posted by nixluva:

Posted by TMS:

i'm not talking about Marbury's play earlier in the season... i'm talking about how he's been playing since Jamal, Q & D Lee went down... he's trying to put the team on his shoulders & win games, but it's not working... since the point is always lost, i'll repeat it again for you... i'm NOT KNOCKING how hard he's been playing this year... i'm NOT KNOCKING the effort he's showing... i'm saying i don't feel that this team will benefit in the long run w/Marbury dominating the ball & trying to win games by himself... we need the team as a whole to play as a unit, & Marbury being the best player on the team needs to take it upon himself to focus more on sharing the ball & getting his teammates more involved going forward.

now since i'm pretty sure you're going to accuse me of hating on Marbury sometime soon in this discussion, i'll just leave it at that.

All i've been trying to say is that this is not the way he intends to play and he wasn't trying to play this way to start the year. This is a direct result of the injuries and Isiah ASKED HIM TO PLAY THIS WAY!!!

With regard to what TrueBlue said, I think it's just a matter of perception as to how into it Steph is when he's not scoring. Plus it's not fair to say that he ahsn't been defending VERY well this year. He's been solid and you must remember that he's constantly being run thru picks which and takes a pounding. If you add up all of those things and include the minutes played, the scoring load, taking on bigger guards and SF's, which HE DOES DO, directing the team, and scoring, that's an INCREDIBLE amount that is he's handling. To me it's utterly ridiculous that anyone could criticize him when he's giving so much effort and has been for a long time now. Even in the loss he had 30 pts, 7 rebs, 6 asts and 1 stl and played 45 minutes!!!!! DAMN that's a lot of not caring. Go look at his game logs since December and note that he's also been rebounding more, in addition to everything else he's been doing. logging heavy minutes as well. No matter whether he's a great defender or not, he's DEFINITELY improved and it's tangible.

The start of this thread to me was a slap in the face to a guy that tried to do everything he was asked this year and STILL some of you don't get it. It's not about Steph. It's about DEVELOPING the rest of this team so that he doesn't have to do all of that. it's gonna take time for these players to develop and for some more improvement of the roster as well. If the rest of the team can contribute and take up the slack in their own right, then all Steph has to do is manage the team, much like Billups. He doesn't have to tell the other guys what to do all game. They know their roles and are skilled enough to execute those roles. that's what we want the other players on this team to become. That's also what we miss with the FEW guys who can do that in Q, Jamal and Lee. Most of the remaining guys aren't that developed yet.

Why can't you get the point that some of us don't think this team that is "developing" can develop into a contender for years to come? Why is that so hard? We've been over this a million times and you still act surprised by it every single time and you go into your little diatribes.

Marburys problem on the court is he is just not a playmaker. He is a scorer and he can pass, but he isn't a playmaker.

I don't know if Collins is a playmaker either. He can run an offense but I don't know if he is a constant playmaker. Maybe he can develop into one though. Crawford shows flashes of playmaking ability, but I don't think he can consistantly run an offense. And though he has the advantage of playmaking as well as being a good scorer though not efficient. Crawford is the weakest defensively.

Fishmike brought up an excellent point about Marbury a while back. About Marbury being a great 2 man game player. But when it comes to running all 5 players he struggles.

all we can hope is that now isiah finally got a chance to coach this team, he finally realizes what he needs to do to fix it. at least, that's what i hope.

on the menu:
1. new "classic" pg
2. new starting sg
3. new starting sf
4. new starting pf

he has his work cut out for him. good luck.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by nixluva:

Posted by TMS:

Do you really think that if Steph passed the ball MORE that we'd win these games? You really think that?

yeah, i actually do think if he got his teammates involved more early & often, that it would help the team's chances of winning more games... & yeah, i think i know the game too... thanks though.

Tell me just what it is that these other guys are going to do with the ball when they get it and the other team is playing a zone? Who is it that is going to take the perimeter shots or break down the D to create a better scoring opportunity? How liable are they to turn it over considering the alarming rate at which we do that already? The only other guy available right now who can break a team down is Nate and his success rate isn't high enough. Mardy does it on occasion, but he's not yet fully comfortable. Almost none of the guys is comfortable catching and shooting. Frye has been lost and Jared is up and down with his success rate at this point. This isn't Toronto where you have shooters all over the place.

Just to be clear we're talking about the roster as it is right now. Not when we have all of our guys healthy.

my focus is on the big picture... by Marbury trusting his teammates to make plays & putting them into positions to score, i feel the overall improvement in the team is likely to be higher than if Marbury plays his "All Alone" style of ball he's playing now... the overall improvement of the team as a whole over the long haul is ALOT more important than seeing Marbury put up 30 a night & losing games anyway... i could care less what the score is if they're just going to lose games anyway... i'm looking at the big picture & having Marbury dominating the ball & playing 1 on 5 every night is not my idea of nurturing longterm success.

The problem is that people seem to be under the impression that Marbury can play like a Miller, Nash, or Kidd and simply chooses not to. I think that is a misconception. Marbury is not a pure PG and does not have that level of recognition of the game. He is a combo guard with some passing skills. He can run a decent pick and pop and can make the occasional pass into the post or drive and dish, but he is not capable of consistently creating offense for others simply by reading the defense and making high-level passes to his teammates. That is not his game and the sooner people realize that is not his game, the sooner we will start to appreciate what he can do and focus on how this team can work with his skill set, because he is capable of running a team.

Right now, Marbury is passing the ball and trying not to dominate unless the team needs him to score, but as I mentioned, even when he is not dominating the ball, he does not have the skills to consistently create offense for others. That is why Lee, Crawford, and Q were so important. They did not need Marbury to create offense for them. They could create offense for themselves and others, which masked Marbury's shortcomings as a pure passer.

I think Marbury is a fine pg for us if he continues to play like he has been playing. Next year, hopefully Balkman and Collins will come back with improved jumpers and Curry will be better at passing out of the doubleteam. With Crawford, Q, and Lee all back, we should have enough skilled players that we won't need Marbury to create offense for anyone. Rather, we should be able to create offense just by running our system.

Posted by misterearl:

Brilliant

>>Right now, Marbury is passing the ball and trying not to dominate unless the team needs him to score, but as I mentioned, even when he is not dominating the ball, he does not have the skills to consistently create offense for others. That is why Lee, Crawford, and Q were so important. They did not need Marbury to create offense for them. They could create offense for themselves and others, which masked Marbury's shortcomings as a pure passer.

TheGame - you should have a daily column with the Times or Post

That's why i've been stressing how important it is to have a good TEAM and not just a good PG. We miss the other guys cuz they KNOW how to play and Steph doesn't have to do everything for them. We are much smoother as a team when we have those guys and right now we lack the decision making and skills of those guys.

If Steph was to simply make passes all game we'd score even less, cuz Balkman, Jared and Collins aren't natural scorers. Frye has some kind of mental block and Curry is always double and triple teamed. That's why we miss having those other guys so much. I think Isiah will look to enhance this teams depth of skill players this summer.

TMS, it's impossible to try and sway someone who doesn't want to be swayed at all.

YET AGAIN, I remind you that this is NOT how Steph has been playing all year and it's been something that ISIAH requested that he do, since we've been missing Q and Jamal. Steph had been working on only looking to score when the team needed it, otherwise he was looking to make sure the team as a whole was flowing properly. I don't know how you missed that point, since it's been written about repeatedly. Isiah has said it, Steph, even the Media has noted that this is what Steph was doing, BEFORE THE INJURIES!!!

I'm not missing your point at all. I think what your saying is in AGREEMENT with what Isiah wants from Steph or any Guard we have. The entire beginning of the season was spent trying to find that balance and that was taking effect as the team started to play better. The way he's playing now is NOT the way that Isiah would have him play if this team had our other top scorers available. Right now we dont' really have much else so ISIAH ASKED Steph to play this way only for this time.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by nixluva:

Others have said that if you just replaced Steph that these other young players would be better off. I refute that argument and from my vantage point this team doesn't even have a chance in many of these games if not for his presence.

you simply aren't getting the point... who the F cares how many games this team wins this year? are they a legitimate playoff contender regardless if Marbury gets his 30 a night or not? Marbury's putting up #'s like he's done his whole career, & still the team loses... do you get the point now? no one's saying he isn't playing his heart out or blaming the losses on him... we're saying that by him playing this style of basketball, it isn't helping the longterm future & development of our young guys... shouldn't that be the main focus at this point? who the F cares if we win 2 or 3 more games this year than we normally would have? i'm more interested in seeing this team grow as a UNIT, not watching 1 guy go off every game & lose games by 4 or 5 points instead of 20... once again, the POINT is that this team needs someone who will facilitate the offense & get everyone involved in order for this TEAM as a WHOLE to improve going forward... we don't need to see Marbury playing 1 on 5 every night, regardless if we have key players out or not... that's not going to get this team anywhere.

See my previous post, the point is that this team can win with Marbury if we have skilled players surrounding him. Right now, Balkman, Collins, and Frye do not know how to play basketball well enough or are so limited offensively, that the only way the team wins is if Marbury scores and also creates offense for those guys, which he cannot do. Once we add back our more skilled players and Balkman and Collins improve their offensive games, this team can win with Marbury because it will not require Marbury to play like Kidd, Marbury can simply play like Marbury.

Importantly, I don't think Marbury can play like Kidd, so I think people need to stop expecting him to and appreciate what he can bring to the team, which is a solid pg that can get the team into the offense and score when the offense is struggling and also provide defense. If he continues to play like he has this season, this team should be fine with Marbury at the helm.