Posted by BlueSeats:

the freedom to spend nearly half a billion on talent (using DJ's figure)

i used a scientific calculator to reach that number too.

Posted by sebstar:

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by sebstar:


Why are you inventing lottery picks? Are you actually blaming Isiah for making the playoffs in his first year? '10 hasnt happened yet and the Knicks still have a more than solid chance of making the playoffs this year. Thats three down.

I stand behind my "bizarre" statement because when Zeke took the job nobody was talking about these wealth of assets he had at his disposal, just the pitiful roster he inherited. You are playing revisionist history. Its not to say that the situation was completely hopeless, but the prospects you invoke, yet whose names you conveniently ignore, are damn near all out of the league. Again, you are not using any balance or perspective. You seem to just be grinding axes and trying to make Zeke look as bad as possible by even playing fast and loose with facts.

You were the one that made the statement that no GM in the history of the league had his assets --- you back it up. I aint doing a damn thing. I'm going to class and partying my @ss off tonight.

I get it sebstar, you're a young guy and you're having trouble to understand the concept of assets outside of talent.

Lets try to abstract this a bit. Two of your friends, are talking. "Homer" is excitedly telling "Hater" about his new car:

Homer: "Dude, did I tell you about my new car? Know how I used to drive that crummy '85 Mazda? Well my dad just bought me a '2000 Subaru. It's like so totally awesome."

Hater: "A 2000 Subaru is totally awesome? Okay..."

Homer: "Dude, maybe it's not great but do you realize what a piece of junk that was that I started with?"

Hater: "Anyway, I heard your dad bought that in a manic fit where he mortgaged the house and blew your college fund and their retirement savings. Is that true?"

Homer: "Dude, like who cares, I just got a Subaru!!!"

Dont use my age as a way to cover for the fact that you cant get basic facts straight and your posts lack simple logic. Of course you had to fall back on that tired ass homer/hater nonsense that has dominated the board. Lame. I guess I am crazy for wanting people to engage in critical thinking. I see where you're coming from.

You keep bringing up these bit players as reasons why the Suns and Bulls made those trades. In terms of "assets", those players were throw ins.

The Suns made that trade to get Marbury and Penny out of there, so they could get their ridiculous contracts off their cap and to get a real PG in to play with Amare and Marion. Next you can say those 2 #1 picks were of much greater importance along with getting an interior presence in KT. After all that you can talk about the throw in players.

The Bulls made that trade because they questioned Curry's health, work ethic and desire. They didn't want to give him a long term contract when the only time he came into camp in shape was when he was in his contract year. I'm sure there were questions about Curry using substances like ephedra to drop his weight, which led to his heart problems. If drugs were the only way for him to get into shape before his contract year then why take the chance and take up valuable cap space for him? Especially when they have more important young players that they're going to have to take care of.

Then when Isiah actually agreed to giving up last years #1 pick unprotected along with trading picks this year unconditionally, it was a no brainer that they were going to make the trade. Sweetney and Williams were throw ins.

So the short answer is that the "assets" that Isiah had to work with were the Knicks ability to take on hundreds of millions of dollars in contracts, that other teams desperately wanted off their cap and unprotected potential lottery picks. If they don't make the playoffs this year it will be 3 lottery picks that Isiah has traded away in 4 years, let that sink in for a second. Those players you keep bringing up were throw ins to make it work under the cap and not the "assets" that you make them out to be.

Posted by sebstar:

Why are you inventing lottery picks? Are you actually blaming Isiah for making the playoffs in his first year? '10 hasnt happened yet and the Knicks still have a more than solid chance of making the playoffs this year. Thats three down.

so first round picks then... lottery or borderline lottery every one of them. you're quibbling over a few spots in the draft.

I stand behind my "bizarre" statement because when Zeke took the job nobody was talking about these wealth of assets he had at his disposal, just the pitiful roster he inherited. You are playing revisionist history. Its not to say that the situation was completely hopeless, but the prospects you invoke, yet whose names you conveniently ignore, are damn near all out of the league. Again, you are not using any balance or perspective. You seem to just be grinding axes and trying to make Zeke look as bad as possible by even playing fast and loose with facts.

people weren't talking about the assets IT had, yes... and everyone was SHOCKED at how much salary we took on. everyone who thought we didn't have assets just didn't get the memo about how much of dolan's $$$ IT had to spend.

oh yeah and a lot of those players are no longer in the league because their contracts are up... expiring contracts...

bottom line- with what we had, this team could have gone any number of directions. we took one that has not produced a season of progress from that point yet. we have a young core that is nothing spectacular by league standards. we could be worse off. if we hadn't gotten rid of layden we probably would have been. but that doesn't mean IT did a good job.

Posted by SlimPack:

Posted by sebstar:


but the prospects you invoke, yet whose names you conveniently ignore, are damn near all out of the league.

as regards this converstation its more important to keep in mind how good those prospects where viewed as at the time they were on our roster, not now. if phoenix knew lampe would be out of the league right now there's a chance that they don't make the marbury trade. what I'm actually trying to say is if those prospects were viewed as somewhat valueable and as having potential at the time then thats how you should look at them in terms of how much value they added to the roster isiah inherited.

Not true.

1. Lampe and Vujanic were NOT thought of very highly. I dare you to bring up any article or quote that speaks to how well-perceived they were.

2. We all know PHX made the trade to free up money. Now you can't conveniently tell season ticket holders you just want to dump Marbs/Penny and their cap figure mid-season. (This was before their fans could even hope that NASH would be around the corner.) PHX was interested in the cap space, but people don't come to see cap space play, so they needed the Knicks to kick in some contracts. That's it. Lampe had no some small value then but 29 GMs passed on him in the draft so that tells you something. Vujanic, no GM would touch with a ten foot pole.

Not sure how to take that comment MasterPlam, you think Lampe can be good as David Lee? You lost me here.

Not at all my point MasterPlan,

Lampe was worthless on his own merits. That he was drafted 30, that Vujanic was a 2nd round pick... shows you how other teams PERCEIVED them.

This thread turned into a "perceived value" debate after all.

Lampe fell in the draft because teams didn't want to give him guarenteed money when they felt he was going to be impossible to get out of his contract with his team Europe. The Knicks took him with the 1st pick int he 2nd round, which enabled them to give him a minimum contract NON-GUARENTEED contract, thus in case they weren't able to get him out of his European contract, it was no big deal.

Lampe was considered a lotto pick by most if not all draft experts.
From Chad Ford on draftnight, while grading the Knicks draft picks.
"...But landing the other guy you thought about taking at No. 9, Maciej Lampe, was a huge draft steal. I've seen Lampe play enough to know that his slide wasn't warranted. Lots of teams dropped the ball on him. If he can work out his contract issues with Real Madrid, he'll make Knicks fans happy."

Posted by nyk4ever:

From John Hollinger who said Lampe was the best pick in the draft

Best Pick: Maciej Lampe, Knicks
Other teams ran away from him like he had the plague because there might be some issues with his contract. But for goodness sakes, the guy is only 18 years old. Even if he can't come to the U.S. for three years, he'll only be 21 when he's liberated from his team in Spain and joins the NBA. And with his size and shooting ability, he's worth the wait. I can't imagine why teams passed this up for college mediocrities like Josh Howard and Jones.

ha ha in retrospect that's hilarious, knocking dallas for taking howard over maciej.

Lampe May Be Steal of Deal

Tim Tyers and Bob Young
The Arizona Republic
Jan. 11, 2004

An NBA insider in New York is saying that in five years, the recent multiplayer trade between the Knicks and Suns will be known as the Lampe trade, not the Marbury trade.

So far, 18-year-old Maciej Lampe (MAH-chick LOMP-ay) has not made an NBA appearance. The Knicks put him on the injured list Oct. 27 with shin splints, and the Suns put him on the injured list Friday with back spasms to make room for the return of Amare Stoudemire and Zarko Cabarkapa.

Lampe, 6 feet 11 and 240 pounds, was regarded as a lottery pick before last year's draft, but fell to the first pick of the second round (No. 30) due to questions over his contract status in Europe.

"I really like him. He has a lot of talent," Suns coach Mike D'Antoni said. "This kid is going to be really good. He just needs more age. As a coach, I know I can give him more years. We'll just have to wait awhile. But he has all the skills.

"He needs to get stronger (upper body) and get experience. He has some things that you can't teach, like a feel for the game and shooting ability. It's a lot easier to wait and let him mature than it is to reconstruct the game. He already has the game."

How does he compare with another former Suns "project," center Jake Tsakalidis?

"We're talking Mars and Venus," D'Antoni said. "We're talking about two different planets. This guy has unbelievable skills. I liked Jake, but Jake was more robotic. This guy is a basketball player. You can't teach the talent he has."

Just for the record

Boozer, Arenas, and Redd allstars this year

Late first rounders like howard and parker allstars

Great point saying, well teams passed on lampe so what does that tell you, it tells me that nba gms are rarely right, and they get infatuated with upside and potential and don't look at whats in front of them half the time

Chad Ford and Hollinger is the best you could come up with? Lordy...

Lampe had no value after GMs actually saw the kid. The value you're bringing up was from reading Chad Ford europorn reports.