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Ariza trade set other moves in motion...NY Times
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BlueSeats
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2/3/2007  5:00 AM
Posted by oohah:
That said... would you have preferred the trade that much more if it included Crawford instead of Ariza?

Definitely! While it still would have ended up a bad trade because of Francis' knee, we would not have traded a young promising player, and I really don't care for the inconsistency of JC. He tantalizes, but he never realizes. He can kill his team or the other team on any given night.


I'm not one to defend Jamal, but I wouldn't have liked the trade any better with him in it. For all his faults, I still think he's a more unique player to this team and the league than Ariza. For instance, who already present on this team makes Jamal expendable?

I always liked Ariza, and while I was probably posting more on realgm than here at the time, anyone who read that thread I imported of unflattering Franbury nicknames knows I opposed the deal, but I was not crushed we gave up Ariza. The reason being, I felt he was being routinely outplayed by Barnes, Woods and Lee. Even if he were here now I think he'd struggle for minutes behind Q (when healthy), Lee and Balkman (let alone Skinny, who starts.)

And that as a 19/20 year old 2nd round pick, with but one year of college under his belt, he also felt justified in carping about losing his starting role while being outplayed by his teammates didn't help my feelings on the matter... but that played a very minor role in the larger scheme of things for me.

Good kid, but very non-essential.
AUTOADVERT
Bippity10
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2/3/2007  9:50 AM
Posted by bigbeast:

Hey Bip- We are definitely in agreement when it comes to the Knicks. They need to stop all this half-a** stuff and lay down a blueprint and stick to it 100%. If they are rebuilding (which is what they should be doing) every move made by the Knicks should be geared towards rebuilding. a 29 yr old francis made absolutely no sense.

Over the past month and a half, Curry has emerged as the focal point (notice I didn't say franchise). If this is the new blueprint, every move should made to build with Curry and compliment his game, shot-blockers, rebounders, perimeter defenders and shooters, and game closers.....

With that said, the idea that Isiah is the blame fort everything wrong with the Knicks is getting old. Yes, Isiah has made ton of mistakes, which I have pointed out more than a few times. But the support that Brown gets on this board (not saying you Bip) is a bit over the top. I understand he has a good track record, but he set this franchise back even further. There is no question in my mind that Francis wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Brown.

[Edited by - bigbeast on 02-02-2007 7:19 PM]

That's why I invited your cousins to my get together, because the BigBeasts are good people. I really don't think Brown gets a lot of support on the board. I think it's just perceived. Very few have really defended the job he did last year. I think there are many that would rather have him than Isiah(which is a fair opinion) but I don't think anyone really defends the guy. I think the bottome line in the Ariza/Franis ordeal is that it doesn't matter who wanted the trade. It is the GM who makes the trade. I don't care if LB comes in and begs you for Francis. If you look at your line-up and see who's on it. And then see the name Francis, there isn't 5% of the population that thought that he was a fit for this team. As GM you can't make that deal. The world knew that LB wanted this deal to jettison marbs. How could Isiah not have known. He didn't know because it was desperation time. Someone was getting canned and a splash had to be made. That's not all Isiah's fault, it's not all LB's fault. They both helped to put our organization in that situation. It's time to change the conditions that continually lead to this stuff.
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Bippity10
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2/3/2007  9:55 AM
We shouldn't be analyzing the trade to find out who's fault it was? That is a waste of time and doesn't matter. What matters is the trade was made. What matters is once again we got off course. What matters is figuring out why, no matter who our GM is we end up trading away draft picks and young guys for overpaid, aging and injured vets that don't fit a long-term plan. This is not an isolated incident that only Isiah and LB committed. Our GM/coaches are never on the same page. Why???????????????????????/

Can someone explain to me why who's fault it is? is a more important question than why this keeps happening?
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martin
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2/3/2007  12:11 PM
Posted by oohah:
That said... would you have preferred the trade that much more if it included Crawford instead of Ariza?

Definitely! While it still would have ended up a bad trade because of Francis' knee, we would not have traded a young promising player, and I really don't care for the inconsistency of JC. He tantalizes, but he never realizes. He can kill his team or the other team on any given night.

P.S. We need more smileys, I'm sick of the ones we have.

oohah

find us some good ones and we'll add them.
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jaydh
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2/3/2007  1:36 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by nyk4ever:

As DJ said earlier in this thread. If Isiah wanted Ariza back so bad he could have offered him the MLE, which he did not.

If Isiah wanted Ariza so bad the trade would have been Penny for Francis straight up.

Thats how badly LB wanted Ariza gone.
jaydh
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2/3/2007  1:43 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by holfresh:



How is it you guys are able to talk through both sides of your collective mouths on this one...How many Larry lovers here were quoting Parcells...You want LB to do the cooking but you wont allow him to buy the groceries...I remember battling with 80 percent of this forum about this...Where are they now???...Man Up!!!...Now you want to pretend that LB is not the reason why Ariza is in Orlando and Francis' contract is on this roster...Isn't that enough reason to fire that clown Larry Brown...Come on...MAN UP!!!!!!!


So basically what you are saying is that because *we* said Larry should have personnel input, it was granted? Theres no doubt in my mind that Larry *should* have had player personnel input but didn't. If Larry was able to move players, he would have went for Ratliff, Snow, etc etc etc, but alas those guys were never acquired. This argument has been rehashed a million times over.

Ratliff was too expensive(they wanted frye or lee) and we were never going after snow but rather Watson(who was also too expensive). And to say the reason Ariza was traded wasn't LB is delusional.
nyk4ever
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2/3/2007  1:44 PM
Posted by jaydh:



Ratliff was too expensive(they wanted frye or lee) and we were never going after snow but rather Watson(who was also too expensive). And to say the reason Ariza was traded wasn't LB is delusional.

Thanks for entering the discussion. Now backup your statement with some good discussion and maybe I'll consider it, instead of your argument being solely, "LB wanted Ariza gone because I said so."
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
jaydh
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2/3/2007  1:47 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by jaydh:



Ratliff was too expensive(they wanted frye or lee) and we were never going after snow but rather Watson(who was also too expensive). And to say the reason Ariza was traded wasn't LB is delusional.

Thanks for entering the discussion. Now backup your statement with some good discussion and maybe I'll consider it, instead of your argument being solely, "LB wanted Ariza gone because I said so."

Please this has been beaten to death, you can find quotes and articles about this all over the internet. I don't care if you are in denial, look it up yourself.
nyk4ever
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2/3/2007  1:51 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by jaydh:



Ratliff was too expensive(they wanted frye or lee) and we were never going after snow but rather Watson(who was also too expensive). And to say the reason Ariza was traded wasn't LB is delusional.

Thanks for entering the discussion. Now backup your statement with some good discussion and maybe I'll consider it, instead of your argument being solely, "LB wanted Ariza gone because I said so."

Please this has been beaten to death, you can find quotes and articles about this all over the internet. I don't care if you are in denial, look it up yourself.

Who said anything about me being in denial. I asked you to back up your statement with some information instead of a "it's this way because I said so." is that too much to ask since you decided to come at me and call me DELUSIONAL? I could care less if I'm wrong and I could care less what you perceive my opinion to be, my opinion is just that, an opinion.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
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2/3/2007  1:56 PM
On a sidenote, Francis may play tonight.
Thank you, Rick Brunson.
BlueSeats
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2/3/2007  2:18 PM
Posted by jaydh:

Thats how badly LB wanted Ariza gone.
Posted by jaydh:


Please this has been beaten to death, you can find quotes and articles about this all over the internet. I don't care if you are in denial, look it up yourself.


If Brown is responsible for what the knicks offered then one doesn't have to look very far. According to the article that started this thread it was Crawford he wanted "gone so badly."

The Knicks had offered a package of Jamal Crawford and Maurice Taylor. But Smith was leery of their big contracts and he wanted Ariza.

IOW, according to this Orlando wanted small contracts and Ariza regardless of what was offered and by whom.
nyk4ever
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2/3/2007  2:21 PM
BlueSeats, you must be delusional to actually believe that.

Some people really make you wonder.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
djsunyc
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2/3/2007  3:36 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by jaydh:

Thats how badly LB wanted Ariza gone.
Posted by jaydh:


Please this has been beaten to death, you can find quotes and articles about this all over the internet. I don't care if you are in denial, look it up yourself.


If Brown is responsible for what the knicks offered then one doesn't have to look very far. According to the article that started this thread it was Crawford he wanted "gone so badly."

The Knicks had offered a package of Jamal Crawford and Maurice Taylor. But Smith was leery of their big contracts and he wanted Ariza.

IOW, according to this Orlando wanted small contracts and Ariza regardless of what was offered and by whom.

this recent article says otis smith isn't really restricted financially:
Magic Executives Talk Possible Trade
3rd February, 2007 - 10:55 am
Florida Today -
The Orlando Magic front office had a meeting of the minds on Friday to discuss what they would like to accomplish heading into the trade deadline period.

Team president Bob Vander Weide met with GM Otis Smith.

Smith said he hasn't been told that there are any financial limitations being placed on him if a blockbuster deal becomes available to him.

Trading the expiring contract of Grant Hill could make accomplishing a big deal a distinct possibility.

"One of the beautiful things about this ownership group is that in my two years running this thing is that they've never not allowed me to do the business of basketball based on finances," Smith said of owner Rich DeVos and Vander Weide. "Are they going to run the numbers and hold you accountable to them? Well, of course they are and that's what they should do. They're fiscally responsible and I am, too. But if it's a good deal, we're not going to pass up on it."

so this could just be a case where otis smith didn't want to commit to a player like jamal long term and went the "fiscally responsible" route on his own accord.
BlueSeats
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2/3/2007  3:42 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
so this could just be a case where otis smith didn't want to commit to a player like jamal long term and went the "fiscally responsible" route on his own accord.

Right, Ariza was the best value available. They dumped a contract/injury/body that was a hindrance for them and added a high-gain/low-risk reward in the process. That's good GMing. Those are the types of GMs who desperately want Isiah to stick around for a looong long time.
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2/3/2007  4:38 PM
I like Ariza, but we replaced him with Balkman.

The problem again like Oohah stated earlier isn't the fact that we lost Ariza though I would have still liked him on the team. But the fact that we added Francis. And his contract, and the fact that he hasn't really been healthy enough to produce, and he doesn't fit with the 3 other PGs we have.
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2/3/2007  5:19 PM
Hindsight is a terrible thing.
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2/3/2007  5:23 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:

My mom asked me what I wanted for Christmas. She likes hints, but then wants to surprise me, so I give her a short list to pick from. This was this years list:

Underwear
Amazon gift certificate
iPod armband
Bag of heroine

She got me the heroine. Her friends called her nuts, but what could she do, I asked for it.

Exactly. Its tough for some to see but Isiah is actually Larry's mom.


Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
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2/3/2007  6:47 PM
Boy this Ariza thread in got Blueseats to post......... That's when how know LB got the knicks kicked in the coin purse.



Only thing I would like to know is how can you on one hand say you wished had said and took over because you know his record, then here be saying Isiah is the GM he should have never did what Larry said????Hmmm!!!!

And that's for those of you that atleast admitt that Larry was having a power struggle for complete control......
Those of you that don't admitt Larry had a big say in that deal are just sad lost souls on this issue.
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2/4/2007  2:23 PM
If this is Zeke's worst move, then that's not bad at all. Ariza is a good defensive player, but that's about it and he surely would have been buried on the bench once again, coming in only for special situations. Ariza never was that great. He's the opposite of the Curry of the Knicks right now. Good D but no offense.

I get a kick out of what Zeke supposidly said. 'I hate it that he's injured, but I'm glad he's injured now, because he's playing us'?! That sounds selfish. Maybe that's were little punk Nate is getting the attitude from.
I'll never trust this' team again.
BlueSeats
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2/4/2007  5:57 PM
Posted by Anji:

Boy this Ariza thread in got Blueseats to post......... That's when how know LB got the knicks kicked in the coin purse.


Only thing I would like to know is how can you on one hand say you wished had said and took over because you know his record, then here be saying Isiah is the GM he should have never did what Larry said????Hmmm!!!!

And that's for those of you that atleast admitt that Larry was having a power struggle for complete control......
Those of you that don't admitt Larry had a big say in that deal are just sad lost souls on this issue.


Anji, It's like I've said many times, Isiah asked Brown for a list of guys he was interested in, and I don't think Stevie and Jalen were high on that list. I think those guys are what you end up with when two (uncompromising?) individuals, with radically different philosophies and styles, are put together and required to compromise.

Let me turn the table and ask you the question: do you think that if Isiah were not here, and LB had been hired to be coach+GM, that Stevie and Jalen would have been his big moves for the year? Without Isiah would those trades have been made at all?

My hunch is that LB would have made significant changes whereas Isiah was looking for additions. Jalen (and lets be clear, that trade was about the draft pick that came with him) and Stevie were about additions.
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Ariza trade set other moves in motion...NY Times
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