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It's shocking how Isiah isn't gone at this point...
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islesfan
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1/16/2007  10:23 PM
Posted by holfresh:

Bynum was too much of a long term project/gamble for the Knicks pull the trigger on...We needed help a lot sooner than Bynum would have provided it if he becomes good...Is Bynum's talent that good that we could have waited 4 to 5 years or maybe 6 to develop, I really not sure...A guy like Frye can contribute in 2 to 3 years right when everyone else is rounding into form..I'm not sure of the LB hire time table with respect to the draft, but how do you draft a Bynum for a coach like LB knowing LB might be wearing out his welcome in about three years...

One more point...Knicks didn't have the luxury of fronline line talent(meaning starting players) to have a guy like Bynum sit and develop for a few years..Bynum works for LA because Kobe and Odum can carry that ball club to respectability until Bynum gets up to speed..The Knicks didn't have that luxury...Bynum is a nice luxury for a team who can afford it..Knicks isn't one of them...

We needed help a lot sooner??? Huh? I thought we were rebuilding with youth and not looking to win now?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
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djsunyc
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1/16/2007  10:25 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by Bonn1997:
He rebounds at a rate 1.5 better than Curry in his second year
How'd you get that? Are you misusing the term "rate"? For rate, I calculate 14.3 per 48 min for Bynum and 10.8 per 48 min at age 19 for Curry. (Curry's rate at age 24, sadly, is even worse: 10.3 per 48 min.)

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-16-2007 8:54 PM]

Yeah I did misuse the term...But there is no need to extrapolate they both played at 19 mins per game their second year...Bynum 5.8 reb to Curry's 4.3...in 40 mins that make Bynum up 3 rebs better per game...Does that difference make up for his offense?..And how is that much better?...Curry has made it as a player..he is almost there...What's the guarantee behind Bynum??

Would you trade Curry for Oden straight up?

Isles It depends on direction of the organization and pieces I currently have in place...If Curry, Lee, and Frye exceeds expectations for the rest of the year and looks like a front line that can make a run..Ill do nothng...Oden to me right now is a polished Motumbo...Good defensive player and rebounder with limited offensive game..Do I break up my team and sell pieces with the hope that Oden will be ready in another 4 to 5 years..I'm not sure...

and you'd probably get fired as a gm. you trade curry for oden. it's a no brainer holfresh. no need to analyze. in our situation, you trade for oden.
Allanfan20
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1/16/2007  10:32 PM
Holfresh, this is our problem. First off, we could have had both Bynum and Curry, believe it or not.

Second off, ALL of you are using way too many numbers and aren't making any observations on his game. Andrew Bynum is a shotblocker. He is a solid passer, especially out of the double teams. This is at a much younger age than Curry. His scoring ISN'T as good as Curry's, but because he's passing out of the double, and him simply getting doubled, is reason to believe that Bynum could be just as good, if not better.

He hustles, tries on defense and is a work horse and a half and Kareem Abdul Jabar is drooling over the guy, especially about how receptive he is.

My arguement isn't about who's the better scorer. My arguement is that Bynum is improving at a much faster rate than Curry ever did and is already better at most other aspects of the game. Curry's whole career, so far, has been defined by his low post scoring, and after 6 years, he's finally becoming consistent. It will be more consistent when he can start passing out of the doubles on an every double team basis.

Again, I don't buy the "Well, what were the 2 like at the same age" arguement, for any 2 players. It doesn't make sense to me, simply b/c they are 2 different people.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Allanfan20
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1/16/2007  10:37 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by Bonn1997:
He rebounds at a rate 1.5 better than Curry in his second year
How'd you get that? Are you misusing the term "rate"? For rate, I calculate 14.3 per 48 min for Bynum and 10.8 per 48 min at age 19 for Curry. (Curry's rate at age 24, sadly, is even worse: 10.3 per 48 min.)

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-16-2007 8:54 PM]

Yeah I did misuse the term...But there is no need to extrapolate they both played at 19 mins per game their second year...Bynum 5.8 reb to Curry's 4.3...in 40 mins that make Bynum up 3 rebs better per game...Does that difference make up for his offense?..And how is that much better?...Curry has made it as a player..he is almost there...What's the guarantee behind Bynum??

Would you trade Curry for Oden straight up?

Isles It depends on direction of the organization and pieces I currently have in place...If Curry, Lee, and Frye exceeds expectations for the rest of the year and looks like a front line that can make a run..Ill do nothng...Oden to me right now is a polished Motumbo...Good defensive player and rebounder with limited offensive game..Do I break up my team and sell pieces with the hope that Oden will be ready in another 4 to 5 years..I'm not sure...

and you'd probably get fired as a gm. you trade curry for oden. it's a no brainer holfresh. no need to analyze. in our situation, you trade for oden.

Last I checked, a polished Mutombo is pretty damned close to a hall of famer, if not one. Oden is a BEAST on both ends. I don't care if he just dunks right now either. That was Shaq when he first came in. Oden is gonna be able to kill the NBA almost from day one. He's gonna be just as good a scorer as Curry and Frye, and a better rebounder than Lee. That's all of them put together. You trade them for Oden.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
holfresh
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1/16/2007  10:42 PM

I understand Oden but Bynum as a big time player I really don't see..
Allanfan20
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1/16/2007  10:45 PM
Posted by holfresh:


I understand Oden but Bynum as a big time player I really don't see..

So without using statistics, please tell me why.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
islesfan
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1/16/2007  10:52 PM
Posted by holfresh:


I understand Oden but Bynum as a big time player I really don't see..

But Bynum has proved that he can be a good defender and rebounder at the NBA level. Oden hasn't. Like you said, there's no guarantee that Oden will ever do anything at the NBA level.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
holfresh
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1/16/2007  10:59 PM

I look at it in terms of being athletic...I think we may have had a similar argument..Frye is not athletic but very skilled for a plotter,he has upside if he can do the things he does best consistently... Curry is very athletic, his game will improve by leap and bounds with the right coaching...He will learn things and implement them as though he has been doing them for 20 years..I mean we are seeing it now...Curry can and will defend if he wants to, give it time...I look at Marbs, I always thought Marbs could be a good defender if he wanted to be...I think DLee can be really good defender if he wanted to..He is a terrific athlete...Bynum is not very athletic, he doesn't have all the raw skills to change his game on a dime..He will get better but I think he is in the same boat as Frye...Only thing is that Frye just needs to consistent, his skills are already there...Bynum has to work harder to be better than athletes where changing and adapting comes easily...I see him having a long road to be the type of player you guys think he can be...
Allanfan20
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1/16/2007  11:02 PM
Since when isn't Bynum athletic? I always found him to be damn mobile and agile for a big man and he can get up for a big man too and he's long. Curry is out of shape, and you used some key words. "If he wants to." Curry acts like he doesn't want to at times. Bynum acts like he's starving for it and needs it all the time. In terms of athleticism, Bynum is probably more athletic than Curry if anything.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Allanfan20
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1/16/2007  11:06 PM
BTW, even if Bynum weren't athletic, look at guys like Dirk and Tim Duncan. Are they super athletes? No. It's a silly arguement. But Bynum is athletic, has a skill set, can block shots, is receptive to any kind of coaching. He doesn't need the right coaching. You know he'll improve no matter what. You just admitted in your post you're not sure about that with Curry. That's a problem.

To me, Bynum is probably already the better all around player, besides scoring, and will probably be just as good a scorer down the road and has a higher ceiling. It's really as much a no brainer as Oden.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
holfresh
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1/16/2007  11:19 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

BTW, even if Bynum weren't athletic, look at guys like Dirk and Tim Duncan. Are they super athletes? No. It's a silly arguement. But Bynum is athletic, has a skill set, can block shots, is receptive to any kind of coaching. He doesn't need the right coaching. You know he'll improve no matter what. You just admitted in your post you're not sure about that with Curry. That's a problem.

To me, Bynum is probably already the better all around player, besides scoring, and will probably be just as good a scorer down the road and has a higher ceiling. It's really as much a no brainer as Oden.

If Bynum is a better all around player and Curry is bordering all star status where does that put Kwame Brown??...I really doubt Bynum would be a scorer like Curry..
holfresh
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1/16/2007  11:25 PM
Athleticism has to do more with fluid movements more than anything in my opinion...Curry is a fat boy but more athletic than Bynum...Curry hasn't really passed the ball from the post after being doubled in his life...This guy made two passes in two consecutive game that made me remember Kareem ...One to Lee cutting on the baseline and to Balkman under the basket...You see Curry do stuff every game you never thought he knew how to do...That is athleticism..

[Edited by - holfresh on 01-16-2007 11:27 PM]
holfresh
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1/16/2007  11:26 PM





[Edited by - holfresh on 01-16-2007 11:27 PM]
Allanfan20
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1/16/2007  11:30 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by Allanfan20:

BTW, even if Bynum weren't athletic, look at guys like Dirk and Tim Duncan. Are they super athletes? No. It's a silly arguement. But Bynum is athletic, has a skill set, can block shots, is receptive to any kind of coaching. He doesn't need the right coaching. You know he'll improve no matter what. You just admitted in your post you're not sure about that with Curry. That's a problem.

To me, Bynum is probably already the better all around player, besides scoring, and will probably be just as good a scorer down the road and has a higher ceiling. It's really as much a no brainer as Oden.

If Bynum is a better all around player and Curry is bordering all star status where does that put Kwame Brown??...I really doubt Bynum would be a scorer like Curry..




I dunno Holfresh, where does that put him? Kwame isn't a better player than Bynum though. I'll tell you that much.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
holfresh
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1/17/2007  12:00 AM

Just one thing about the tread you started..Are you really serious??..Have your forgotten the days of Lameden( Layden) and the other lame GMs..Isiah probably drafted better guys in three years than Knicks GMs in the last 20 years collectively..Ewing drafted 21 years ago...Think about that..We had one guy to stick on the roster, Charlie Ward...Think about that..
oohah
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1/17/2007  12:13 AM
Posted by holfresh:


Just one thing about the tread you started..Are you really serious??..Have your forgotten the days of Lameden( Layden) and the other lame GMs..Isiah probably drafted better guys in three years than Knicks GMs in the last 20 years collectively..Ewing drafted 21 years ago...Think about that..We had one guy to stick on the roster, Charlie Ward...Think about that..

Mark Jackson was pretty good. So was Strickland. I think that is the end because next came Greg Anthony(from guys we might remember).

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
oohah
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1/17/2007  12:14 AM
And who could forget Jerod Mustaf!?!?

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Allanfan20
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1/17/2007  12:18 AM
Posted by holfresh:


Just one thing about the tread you started..Are you really serious??..Have your forgotten the days of Lameden( Layden) and the other lame GMs..Isiah probably drafted better guys in three years than Knicks GMs in the last 20 years collectively..Ewing drafted 21 years ago...Think about that..We had one guy to stick on the roster, Charlie Ward...Think about that..


What does that have to do with anything? I said Isiah was solid but overrated. Are we gonna say Isiah should get mega credit b/c he drafter better than crappy drafters? Is this another example of lowering our standards? This is Isiah's wetdream. He loves when people say he's great compared to crap. You can tell in interviews how he brags about it. I think deep down, he knows he's done crap as a Knicks GM.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
holfresh
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1/17/2007  12:22 AM
Posted by oohah:
Posted by holfresh:


Just one thing about the tread you started..Are you really serious??..Have your forgotten the days of Lameden( Layden) and the other lame GMs..Isiah probably drafted better guys in three years than Knicks GMs in the last 20 years collectively..Ewing drafted 21 years ago...Think about that..We had one guy to stick on the roster, Charlie Ward...Think about that..

Mark Jackson was pretty good. So was Strickland. I think that is the end because next came Greg Anthony(from guys we might remember).

oohah

Yeah I remembered those guys just wanted to illustrate a point..
holfresh
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1/17/2007  12:28 AM
Posted by Allanfan20:
Posted by holfresh:


Just one thing about the tread you started..Are you really serious??..Have your forgotten the days of Lameden( Layden) and the other lame GMs..Isiah probably drafted better guys in three years than Knicks GMs in the last 20 years collectively..Ewing drafted 21 years ago...Think about that..We had one guy to stick on the roster, Charlie Ward...Think about that..


What does that have to do with anything? I said Isiah was solid but overrated. Are we gonna say Isiah should get mega credit b/c he drafter better than crappy drafters? Is this another example of lowering our standards? This is Isiah's wetdream. He loves when people say he's great compared to crap. You can tell in interviews how he brags about it. I think deep down, he knows he's done crap as a Knicks GM.

How about player development...This Curry trade could turn into a coop...Just ask Chicago fans if they want to redo that deal...How many guys you know can draft, coach, develop players...I'm not saying all his moves are great but I think you guys are looking at the glass full ..



[Edited by - holfresh on 01-17-2007 12:29 AM]
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It's shocking how Isiah isn't gone at this point...
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