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nyk4ever
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12/20/2006  3:26 PM
Posted by holfresh:



Detroit Piston won through trades and signings...Lakers won three championships through trades and signing....Suns was able to turn it around through trades and signings...Indiana built its team through trades and signings...New Jersey built it's team through trades...Miami won because of Shaq(trade)....Sacramento had a nice run ( trades)....
Detroit is a once in a lifetime team, no team has EVER won with the way they put their team together in the modern free-agent era and no team will again

The Lakers essentially won through One trade and the draft pick of Kobe Bryant(whom they told Charlotte to draft for them)

The Suns drafted Shawn Marion and Amare Stoudamire and then signed Nash to go WITH IT.

New Jersey drafted Kenyon Martin and Keith Van Horn, they then used a trade to get that one player that would put them over the top.

Sacramento drafted Peja, Jason Williams, Mike Bibby to go along with the 1 player they traded for in Webber. Make no mistake about it, Jason Williams and Peja were very good players at the time when they were with Sacramento.

Wheres the Knicks Kobe, Amare, Marion, Kenyon Martin, Peja, Bibby. Where are these players for the Knicks to build AROUND? Frye,Lee,Curry,Crawford,Nate aren't close to being as good as any of these guys. That is how the teams YOU mentioned built their team, they drafted top young players and they then put guys around them. The Knicks have no top-young players to build around, they have some good young players but none of them are top players and none of them can be built around.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
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holfresh
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12/20/2006  3:32 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by holfresh:



Detroit Piston won through trades and signings...Lakers won three championships through trades and signing....Suns was able to turn it around through trades and signings...Indiana built its team through trades and signings...New Jersey built it's team through trades...Miami won because of Shaq(trade)....Sacramento had a nice run ( trades)....
Detroit is a once in a lifetime team, no team has EVER won with the way they put their team together in the modern free-agent era and no team will again

The Lakers essentially won through One trade and the draft pick of Kobe Bryant(whom they told Charlotte to draft for them)

The Suns drafted Shawn Marion and Amare Stoudamire and then signed Nash to go WITH IT.

New Jersey drafted Kenyon Martin and Keith Van Horn, they then used a trade to get that one player that would put them over the top.

Sacramento drafted Peja, Jason Williams, Mike Bibby to go along with the 1 player they traded for in Webber. Make no mistake about it, Jason Williams and Peja were very good players at the time when they were with Sacramento.

Wheres the Knicks Kobe, Amare, Marion, Kenyon Martin, Peja, Bibby. Where are these players for the Knicks to build AROUND? Frye,Lee,Curry,Crawford,Nate aren't close to being as good as any of these guys. That is how the teams YOU mentioned built their team, they drafted top young players and they then put guys around them. The Knicks have no top-young players to build around, they have some good young players but none of them are top players and none of them can be built around.

Bibby was a trade as well...So now, name me the teams that have won building around that franchise player that was drafted???
eViL
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12/20/2006  3:33 PM
Spurs, Heat, Rockets, (the old) Pistons, Celtics, (the old) Lakers, Bulls...
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nyk4ever
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12/20/2006  3:33 PM
Posted by holfresh:

Bibby was a trade as well...So now, name me the teams that have won building around that franchise player that was drafted???


I just showed you, can't you read? Ok, I was wrong about Bibby but that was only 1 of the 3 guys I mentioned from the Kings.

And thats just from the teams that you mentioned. How about the Mavericks, Philadelphia, Denver, Minnesota, San Antonio, Houston. Now add in the Phoenix, New Jersey, the Lakers, the Heat. Thats a lot of teams.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 12-20-2006 3:37 PM]
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
islesfan
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12/20/2006  3:36 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by misterearl:

MasterPlan - you have no sense of context. None

Avoid what Layden left behind and the cap situation entirely.

heat- back to back number one lottery picks

grizzlies - get real, expansion team

bulls - took seven years to make the playoffs, 7

sheesh

nyk4ever - it's about the fans who parrot the press.
actually the context is great. What did Thorn have? He traded Marbury for Kidd and drafted RJ and Collins with mid first rounders.

The Suns traded Marbury and Penny for cap space, drafted Amare and signed Nash

The Bulls sent their garbage to us and used that flexibility to their advantages.

Had Isiah just stayed away from adding bad veteran contracts and stuck with the one thing he does well, which is draft we would be looking at a team full of the guys we all like (Frye, Balkman, Lee, Nate, Jackie Butler, etc) and $20+mm in cap space this offseason.

Instead we have Francis and Marbury dominating the ball, the backcourt and the salary cap for 2 more years after this. Instead we have Jerome James for 5 years, Crawford for 6. Instead we are all hoping this is the year that Eddy gets in shape and doesnt mail it in.

Has it occured to anyone the reason the 2nd unit guys like Balkman, Lee, Frye (when he's at center for Eddy), Nate play so well is because these mostly late first rounders are simply better ball players than the expensive max jerks Isiah traded for?

This has come up before, Does it ever matter that Dolan owns the team and he has his mandates...Do you really think Isiah and Isiah only had the call on whether or not to rebuild?

So who made the decision 2 years ago that we're now rebuilding? Someone must have since "rebuilding" comes out of Isiah's mouth all the time now.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
fishmike
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12/20/2006  3:38 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by holfresh:


Blue, not to prolong this a argument, but I can name about 15-20 teams that went that route and hasn't won anything in 10 years...We have gone back and forth on this, the holy grail isn't breaking it down and building through the draft...in previous post i have named about 6 or 7 recent teams that have done it through trades as well...I wish Martin and Andrew had a recent post feature..

really? I bet for every one you can name I can name two that have used that method to turn their team around.

Again, your making my point for me. Dont you think there is a reason so many teams at least *try* to do it? Its because all the winning organizations are fiscally responsible and have built this way. There isnt one team in the history of the sport thats has won a title buy just taking on tons of big cast of contracts. Hell, good luck finding any team that does that and even wins.

The closest examples to free spending you can find are Portland (how did that work out?) and Dallas. Dallas only did it after Dirk became an established star worth building around.

Portland did it when they were already a playoff team, and if anything it set them back and spelled a horrible time to come.

Detroit Piston won through trades and signings...Lakers won three championships through trades and signing....Suns was able to turn it around through trades and signings...Indiana built its team through trades and signings...New Jersey built it's team through trades...Miami won because of Shaq(trade)....Sacramento had a nice run ( trades)....

yea.. lol, and all those guys got BETTER when they all dumped Marbury.

Seriously, we are talking about 2 different caliber players.

Billups, Nash, Shaq, Jermaine Oneil on one hand. On the other hand we have Jerome James, Marbury, Steve Francis, Eddy Curry and Jamal Crawford.

And ALL those team made those trades and singings as a result of DUMPING salary and clearing out their rosters.

Please.. those teams brought in premier players, with the exception of Billups with a history of winning at the NBA level. We brought in guys who combined havent won a single playoff series.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
djsunyc
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12/20/2006  3:39 PM
Posted by misterearl:

how does one "purchase" first round picks?

with cash. pheonix sold two first rounders last year for cash to avoid luxury tax. the nets sold their #1 pick in 2004 to portland for cash. heck, even if they were high 2nd rounders. isiah knows how to draft, so even those high 2nd rounders would've been valuable additions without compromising future flexibility in adding a franchise guy.

instead of spending $8 mil on vin baker, we probably could've had two late first rounders. teams are always looking to make some money and avoid guaranteed deals for later picks - at least teams that have to worry about $$$'s like that.
misterearl
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12/20/2006  3:41 PM
Janet Jackson: "what have you done for me lately?"

TMS - did you Boo Marbury on Monday night?

once a knick always a knick
holfresh
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12/20/2006  3:43 PM

Kobe was acquire through a draft day TRADE....I can't say the Lakers was counting on drafting a good pick based on not doing well that season...that is totally different...The key player for the Kings was Webber who was traded for...JWill did not matter one iota...The Keys were Bibby and Webber...My point is you can't tank it waiting for that illusive franchise player to get you to the promise land...I can begin naming the teams that thought that was the way to go that has fallen flat on their faces...
eViL
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12/20/2006  3:47 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Janet Jackson: "what have you done for me lately?"

TMS - did you Boo Marbury on Monday night?

No -- He probably cheered David Lee. HAHA!!

Seriously, are you a Marbury fan? An Isiah fan? A cap-mismanagement fan? What about just being a Knicks fan and not caring about booing or cheering particular people? A lot of people here are fans of the TEAM and they feel that some of your boys, like Isiah and Steph, are hurting the TEAM. You seem to take it personal when people assault Isiah and Steph -- it's almost like you care more about these individuals than you do about the TEAM.

[Edited by - eViL on 12-20-2006 3:48 PM]
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fishmike
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12/20/2006  3:49 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Bibby was a trade as well...So now, name me the teams that have won building around that franchise player that was drafted???
sure... lets look at the last NBA champs:
Heat- drafted Wade
Spurs- drafted Duncan
Pistons- drafted Prince (this is the only non-drafted title winner)
Spurs- drafted Duncan
Lakers- drafted Kobe
Lakers- drafted Kobe
Lakers- drafted Kobe
Spurs- drafted Duncan
Bulls- drafted MJ/Pippen
Bulls- drafted MJ/Pippen
Bulls- drafted MJ/Pippen
Rockets- drafted Hakeem
Rockets- drafted Hakeem
Bulls- drafted MJ/Pippen
Bulls- drafted MJ/Pippen
Bulls- drafted MJ/Pippen
Pistons- drafted Isiah/Dumars
Pistons- drafted Isiah/Dumars
Lakers- drafted Magic/Worthy
Lakers- - drafted Magic/Worthy

There you go buddy... the last 20 NBA champs. Of that 20 all but one featured a top 5 NBA superstar who was drafted by the team that won. The only other winner was the Pistons, but apparently they had some crazy coach that got them all to play incredible team ball.

And dont give me some chum about Lakers not drafting Kobe. Thats as silly as saying we really drafted Dijon Thompson and traded for Nate.


"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
misterearl
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12/20/2006  3:50 PM
The Inheritance/ The Untold Story

Allan Houston - damaged goods, retired

Antonio McDyess - ditto

Keith Van Horn - where the heck IS he these days?

Shandon Anderson - injured, awol from the league in Atlanta somewhere

Charlie Ward - retired

Howard Eisley - never did much

Clarenece Weatherspoon - an earthbound 6'5 dinosaur of a forward

Kurt Thomas - nice jumper, played well with Camby...see Antonio McDyess

Dikembe - 78 years old and still going strong

Othella Harrington - you can never have too many of those georgetown guys

Mike Sweetney - quite possibly Scott Laydens' only productive transactionin 4 years

Michael Doleac - people moaned when he was acquired and moaned when he left

Frank Williams - CBA.. NBDL..what's the difference?

Maciej Lampe - out of the league

Slavko Vranes - ditto

yessir, that's a helluva foundation to start with

once a knick always a knick
fishmike
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12/20/2006  3:54 PM
Posted by holfresh:


Kobe was acquire through a draft day TRADE....I can't say the Lakers was counting on drafting a good pick based on not doing well that season...that is totally different...The key player for the Kings was Webber who was traded for...JWill did not matter one iota...The Keys were Bibby and Webber...My point is you can't tank it waiting for that illusive franchise player to get you to the promise land...I can begin naming the teams that thought that was the way to go that has fallen flat on their faces...

no, but waiting for that elusive franchise player is the only way to win a title. Unless you have Larry Brown as a coach.

Kobe was DRAFTED by West. That trade was in place on draft day. Please give me a break with that.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
misterearl
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12/20/2006  3:56 PM
>>Seriously, are you a Marbury fan?

Nope

An Isiah fan?

Nope

A cap-mismanagement fan?

It ain't my money

Isiah and Steph, are not hurting the TEAM.

eVil - read more carefully next time. please.
once a knick always a knick
TMS
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12/20/2006  3:56 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Janet Jackson: "what have you done for me lately?"

TMS - did you Boo Marbury on Monday night?


dude, i gave up booing him a long time ago... now i just relish the day when i can finally see him wearing another uniform... i stopped rooting for him the day he came out w/that "I'm the best PG in the NBA" crap... before that, i thought he had finally grown up just a little... i was wrong... then he went on to be an arrogant SOB who got into arguments on the court w/his own teammates & constantly blamed his teammates for his own mistakes on the court, like committing turnovers or allowing bottom tier PG's to light him up on a nightly basis... last year was just the icing on the cake for me when he got into it w/his coach & basically played a huge role in that whole debacle... i could care less how well he plays from now on... if the team isn't winning games he does nothing for me... he's earned that w/all the crap he put Knick fans through since he's been here, & there's no reason for anyone to think him playing well will lead to any real positive results for this franchise, because he's put up big numbers before & this team still sucked... the day i accept him as a true Knick is the day this team starts winning games & i can say i'm proud to be a Knick fan again.

& yeah, if that sounds bitter, it's because i am... i put my faith in this guy to be the next great Knick, & so far all he's been is a disgrace to the uniform imo.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-20-2006 4:01 PM]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
fishmike
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12/20/2006  3:57 PM
Posted by misterearl:

The Inheritance/ The Untold Story

Allan Houston - damaged goods, retired

Antonio McDyess - ditto

Keith Van Horn - where the heck IS he these days?

Shandon Anderson - injured, awol from the league in Atlanta somewhere

Charlie Ward - retired

Howard Eisley - never did much

Clarenece Weatherspoon - an earthbound 6'5 dinosaur of a forward

Kurt Thomas - nice jumper, played well with Camby...see Antonio McDyess

Dikembe - 78 years old and still going strong

Othella Harrington - you can never have too many of those georgetown guys

Mike Sweetney - quite possibly Scott Laydens' only productive transactionin 4 years

Michael Doleac - people moaned when he was acquired and moaned when he left

Frank Williams - CBA.. NBDL..what's the difference?

Maciej Lampe - out of the league

Slavko Vranes - ditto

yessir, that's a helluva foundation to start with

put them all together and what do you get?

A TEAM THAT WINS MORE GAMES THAN ISIAH'S

but who's counting wins or losses

Its only sports
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
misterearl
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12/20/2006  3:57 PM
The Knicks were inflicted with much more collateral damage from 2001 to 2003



once a knick always a knick
djsunyc
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12/20/2006  3:57 PM
Posted by holfresh:


Kobe was acquire through a draft day TRADE....I can't say the Lakers was counting on drafting a good pick based on not doing well that season...that is totally different...The key player for the Kings was Webber who was traded for...JWill did not matter one iota...The Keys were Bibby and Webber...My point is you can't tank it waiting for that illusive franchise player to get you to the promise land...I can begin naming the teams that thought that was the way to go that has fallen flat on their faces...


and that was isiah's plan - he wanted to trade for big name talent. he said stars in this league get traded - hence the whole expiring deal strategy. but isiah swung on marbury - so far no tangible results. and then he swung again on curry. so far no tangible results. he also fouled off a bunch of other ones (crawford, mo, jalen, francis, etc.)
misterearl
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12/20/2006  3:59 PM
fish.mike - how you gunna win more games with 8 guys no longer in the league?

get real dude
once a knick always a knick
fishmike
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12/20/2006  4:04 PM
Posted by misterearl:

fish.mike - how you gunna win more games with 8 guys no longer in the league?

get real dude
what are you saying? Makes some sense dude.

Are you saying thats its pathetic Isiah cant put a team together that wins more than that Knick team of 3 years ago that has 8 guys no longer in the league? I agree... its pathetic.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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