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Frye is the weak link
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fishmike
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10/29/2006  9:56 AM
Posted by Allanfan20:

fishmike pulling a tomnerve
to be honest... I hate these kinds of numbers. I would think that anyone watching could plainly see Frye gets used at PF but plays well at center. Apparently oohah cant accept that Frye may not be a good PF and forcing him out there is NOT setting him up for success.

I want him and all the guys we are stuck with to do well. That means playing him where he plays well. center

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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Silverfuel
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10/29/2006  10:00 AM
Posted by fishmike:

When Frye's at PF opposing PFs score 25.4 per 48 and shoot an eFG% of 67%
When Frye's at C opposing Cs score 13.4 per 48 and shoot an eFG% 51%

Opposing PFs are commiting 4.9 PFs when Frye's at PF
Opposing Cs are commiting 7.7 PFs when Frye's at C

When Frye's at PF the Knicks are -8.5 at that position (out scored by 8.5 per 48)
When Frye's at C the Knicks are +6.3 at that position (out scores opponents by 6.3 per 48)
WOW! Thats a good resource. I didn't realize Frye was a much better C than PF. I might be missing you point here but the 'C' position sucks and the 'PF' position is loaded. You might find similar results with anyone's numbers.
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rvhoss
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10/29/2006  10:03 AM
I was more interested in this page:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players?type=position&c=Eastern&pos=PF

You say frye can't cover the other teams PF, and then you use stats based on the Larry Brown Era of Knick coach where the guards are on an island, the bigs help and there is no rotation to cover the bigs man after he helps.

Let's talk specific PF's and not keep using the best PF's in the league against our second year kid...looking at this link:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players?type=position&c=Eastern&pos=PF

And don't get me wrong, I'm addicted to kool aid, but are you telling me that maceo baston, malik allen, udonis haslem (maybe on the boards, but can he stop frye?), alan henderson, Al Jefferson, sean may, antonio mcdyess (maybe, but he's not the old mcdyess we all covet), scott merritt, bo outlaw, michael ruffin, brian scalabrine are uncoverable by Frye and are a mismatch against the knicks?

If that is what you are saying, than we're watching two different players...the Frye I see is in his second year and on that linked list, he's better than all but 5.

Those five being:
drew gooden (only because UK deems it so)
Dwight Howard (but, he's awesome, according to UK and the world)
Darius Songaila (all hustle, at the moment, experience gives darius the nod)
Rasheed Wallace (well, he's a poor man's wallace at the moment anyway)
Chris Webber (because you mentioned in your post he abused him in preseason, before the wear and tear of the season starts to bend his knees)
and udonis Haslem (though haslem is flawed in everything but rebounding, but that's your favorite type of player, you prefer the one dimensional PF as opposed to the young athletic multidimensional PF's of the future)

Listed 6 so someone can add it to their footer.

By all accounts, in his second year, he's top 5 in the East...what's the problem?
all kool aid all the time.
oohah
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10/29/2006  10:03 AM
regardless of what you think he is undisputable is the fact that last year Collins played only center, and Krstic only moved to center when Collins was out of the game. Also listed as centers, Danny Fortson, Channing Frye, Boris Diaw, PJ Brown, Othella Harrington, Okafor, Sweetney.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players?type=position&c=NBA&pos=C
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/channing_frye/index.html

Anyway despite your crusade to establish you are right and I am wrong the one thing remains... Frye cant guard Krstic no matter where he plays.

I am right. He is a center. You are right, Frye cannot guard him.

Curry should be playing him but that would be worse.
Frye's position stats are at 82 games
http://www.82games.com/0506/05NYK18C.HTM

These stats are per 48 minutes.
A couple things jump out. Rebounding is the same. Frye blocks slightly more shots at center. He commits 1.3 more fouls per 48 minutes at center.
Frye scores 20.8 points per 48 at PF last year, vs. 24.8 points per 48 at center
Frye has a higher eFG% at center as well.

The reason you have been stating that Frye should be moved to Center is because he cannot guard PF's. Now we see that he fouls more against Centers albeit slightly.
Now for the real juice... look at what his opposition does.

When Frye's at PF opposing PFs score 25.4 per 48 and shoot an eFG% of 67%
When Frye's at C opposing Cs score 13.4 per 48 and shoot an eFG% 51%

Opposing PFs are commiting 4.9 PFs when Frye's at PF
Opposing Cs are commiting 7.7 PFs when Frye's at C

When Frye's at PF the Knicks are -8.5 at that position (out scored by 8.5 per 48)
When Frye's at C the Knicks are +6.3 at that position (out scores opponents by 6.3 per 48)

Not surprising that Centers score less against Frye than PF's do. Night after night Frye would be facing a star at PF. How many star centers would he be going up against? Not that many...

You'll also find thatr Centers score less than PF's on the average, and I believe that disparity is larger when comparing starters...
in 1560 minutes last year we see Frye at center = good. Frye at PF = not good.

He did well at both positions. He did better offensively against centers that could not stay with him, he did worse defensively facing stud PF's night after night. Where is the surprise? I would rather he play most of his time against the star PF's and hone his game at his natural position.

I see you are a fan of the stats! Did you happen to see the stats where Frye does soooo much better when he starts rather than when he comes off the bench? What do you think of that, since you want him coming off the bench?

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
oohah
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10/29/2006  10:04 AM
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by fishmike:

When Frye's at PF opposing PFs score 25.4 per 48 and shoot an eFG% of 67%
When Frye's at C opposing Cs score 13.4 per 48 and shoot an eFG% 51%

Opposing PFs are commiting 4.9 PFs when Frye's at PF
Opposing Cs are commiting 7.7 PFs when Frye's at C

When Frye's at PF the Knicks are -8.5 at that position (out scored by 8.5 per 48)
When Frye's at C the Knicks are +6.3 at that position (out scores opponents by 6.3 per 48)
WOW! Thats a good resource. I didn't realize Frye was a much better C than PF. I might be missing you point here but the 'C' position sucks and the 'PF' position is loaded. You might find similar results with anyone's numbers.



Zackly.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
rvhoss
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10/29/2006  10:04 AM
Interstingly, lookng at his link:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players?type=position&c=Eastern&pos=PF

According to Yahoo, the knicks don't even have a Power Forward.

So, is this really a list?
all kool aid all the time.
oohah
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10/29/2006  10:07 AM
Posted by fishmike:

http://www.82games.com/0506/05NYK18B.HTM

here's another one... the Knicks were most successfull last year when the played Frye with another PF, either Mo T or Lee. Incidentally they were the worst when Frye played with Curry or Jerome James.

He played better when LB put a decent lineup out there with him with players who can produce as opposed to Rose or Davis.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
rvhoss
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10/29/2006  10:11 AM
Hey, I see both sides points, but the real point of the matter is that the knicks don't have a "Center" or "Power Forward" just as much as they don't have a "Point Guard" or "Shooting Guard".

You say when frye was playing center, does that mean when the person playing next to him had a PF on his jersey?

In the current offense (one much better suited to frye's skillset, and curry's and basically everyone elses than LB's) frye will be playing PF, C and SF from game to game, match up to match and sometimes from possession to possession.

To sit here before the season and stand on a soapbox and scream at the top of your lungs that he's not a PF then in another post call him charles smith and then another week he should be SF and then another week...is pretty premature...

attempting to change the subject just slightly enough to be Not wrong...Blah blah blah...sorry.

I digress.

Frye is a PF as long as curry is on the floor, when curry is not on the floor, he's a center.

well, unless Cato, Jerome James, sometimes Lee and sometimes JJ2 is on the floor.
all kool aid all the time.
rvhoss
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10/29/2006  10:16 AM
Not to pile on...but I love this line...
Posted by oohah:


I see you are a fan of the stats! Did you happen to see the stats where Frye does soooo much better when he starts rather than when he comes off the bench? What do you think of that, since you want him coming off the bench?
oohah

all kool aid all the time.
oohah
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10/29/2006  10:21 AM
Posted by rvhoss:

Hey, I see both sides points, but the real point of the matter is that the knicks don't have a "Center" or "Power Forward" just as much as they don't have a "Point Guard" or "Shooting Guard".

You say when frye was playing center, does that mean when the person playing next to him had a PF on his jersey?

In the current offense (one much better suited to frye's skillset, and curry's and basically everyone elses than LB's) frye will be playing PF, C and SF from game to game, match up to match and sometimes from possession to possession.

To sit here before the season and stand on a soapbox and scream at the top of your lungs that he's not a PF then in another post call him charles smith and then another week he should be SF and then another week...is pretty premature...

attempting to change the subject just slightly enough to be Not wrong...Blah blah blah...sorry.

I digress.

Frye is a PF as long as curry is on the floor, when curry is not on the floor, he's a center.

well, unless Cato, Jerome James, sometimes Lee and sometimes JJ2 is on the floor.

Exactly RV. I never said he cannot play center at all, but I am saying that he should not be a full time center. He just doesn't have the right build/game and he will get abused once coaches realize he cannot physically handle most centers.

I also think he should start. He played best last year when he started. Bigger disparity than Fish's center vs. PF comparison. And when he starts, he will be the PF becuase Curry is at the Center. It is really 2 PF's if you ask me...

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 29-10-2006 10:27 AM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
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