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Knicks - Celtics last night - My reaction (I was at the game)
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Bippity10
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10/23/2006  4:07 PM
I'm not overly concerned with the loss. As a matter of fact I could care less about wins or losses. If we lose playing the scrubs fine. But what I don't understand is how fans can watch 32 turnovers, dispassionate play and a game over by half-time. A mirror image of last year and not think we need to get on the players for this. Should we accept it and allow them to do their thing. No we must harp on it until they wipe this nonsense out of their systems(if possible) and the culture is changed. Or we need to bring in players that only know how to work.

I guess what I'm saying is, I have never been a part of a group of fans that seem to be okay with lack of effort.
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Bippity10
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10/23/2006  4:08 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

he's a better teammate and leader than marbury AND he says all the right things pretty much all the time (except when he bashed LB)

I agree with thi actually. But he's learning so that's fine. Some of the others just don't seem to be learning. It's very frustrating.
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nyk4ever
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10/23/2006  4:09 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

I guess what I'm saying is, I have never been a part of a group of fans that seem to be okay with lack of effort.

Well that's stupid. Why the hell have you never been apart of that group? It's more fun this way, we never get down about losses, since afterall, it's just a hobby for some of these guys.

"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
rvhoss
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10/23/2006  4:19 PM
I have to agree with NYK on this one.
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rvhoss
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10/23/2006  4:22 PM
hey guys, marbury will be gone in 3 years...that's about how long zeke has been here...winning a title is hard work...and we really can't expect our first and second year players to be able to do it and we can't expect craw and eddy to be championship ready either.

But I am here to say that the knicks first and second year players, and S&T acquisitions will be there to contend for a championship in marbury and francis' last year here as a knick.

That means, this year (06/07)we show what we have and next year (07/08) we make that improbable run.

KG, JO, SHAQ, and everyone else will be over the hill and we'll be stacked with 4 and 5 year season players led by a veteran bunch entering their prime (craw, qrich, curry, JJ2) and it's going to be fantastic.

Will zeke be in charge? will marbury and/or francis be here?

who cares.

the key is looking to the future and realizing that it's so bright, we have to wear shades.
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fishmike
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10/23/2006  4:34 PM
I thought you liked this team! Now we are 3 years away? Wasnt it a year ago you were smelling the 2nd round? I smell something this year, but it aint that.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
nyk4ever
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10/23/2006  4:35 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

I have to agree with NYK on this one.

The sarcasm is running rampant.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
rvhoss
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10/23/2006  4:39 PM
hey, 3 years away from contending from a championship...that means we have a shot to win it and we are in the championship.

This year, I'm about the second round...to keep trying to use last year's LB debacle estimates is kind of weak at this point.

Everyone guessed wrong (except islefat) so let's just say this year I'm smelling second round.

But hey, that's lightening in a bottle, no injuries, yadda yadda yadda.

next year, we're going deeper, but to expect us to be in the finals next year two years removed is like expecting detroit to be in the world series 2 years removed from 100+ losses

So, yes, in the year after that we are in the finals with the same team seasoned and ready to go.

What's so crazy about that?

it's better than trading for a one dimensional rebounder and saying (that helps us win a championship). I mean, you just want players off the team because you don't like them...that makes even less sense.

Curry and Frye are the future. JJ2, QRich and Balkman are more than defensive minded players that can rebound and score (qrich especially, averaging like 6 boards a game).

the back court will work itself out, but not in the next 3 months (sorry, that's just asking too much of one man).

But I like this team. (what gave you the impression I didn't), but they are young young young.

if they somehow put it together like camby and company did, then ofcourse we can make a run sooner than 3 years...but that really is asking too much, isn't it?

And i repeat, trading for a one dimensional rebounder to play along side (insert young big with extreme upside here) is fools gold.
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Bippity10
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10/23/2006  5:00 PM
Privately, Thomas knows that the Knicks could be worse defensively than they were last year. Jared Jeffries, the free agent forward Thomas signed to be the defensive stopper, is out for two months. Three-fifths of the starting lineup - Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis and Eddy Curry - have never been strong defensive players. "There (are) things I have to learn about my team," Thomas said, "before the boat is launched off the dock."

If Isiah is using the pre-season to learn about his team how can he learn if our guys are playing half asse? If Marbs and Francis are slacking off how can he get a better feel for how they will work when the regular season starts? Is the strategy to not worry about finding this out until the season starts? So we are telling our guys not to play hard now and avoid injury and then we will establish rotations and what strategy's work and what don't when the guys start the season. We will not play hard for the next few games to avoid injury and then sacrifice the first few games of the season to determine who deserves to play and what defensive strategies work. Is that what we are saying???

Saying that it's okay for OUR TEAM not to play hard after the debacle that was last season is possibly the worst most anti-knick thing that I have ever heard uttered by a fan in my life. It's so unbeleivable that I can't even beleive that it was uttered. After last year noone on this team has earned a spot. Nobody on this team should be slacking off as if their job was secure. We should be establishing a hard working culture which was non-existant last year. In order to do that our players should all be earning their time. Developing hard working habits. Instead we are saying it's only pre-season, relax, don't try.

Bip you were wrong, fans have not begun to settle.

I just don't get it. We say LB ruined our season last year and that now we have no idea how our team will gel because he didn't allow it. Now we have a chance to play together and gel together and we are saying don't get hurt, wait until the season starts and then we'll see how you gel. Lunacy, I tell you, lunacy.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 10-23-2006 5:01 PM]

[Edited by - bippity10 on 10-23-2006 5:05 PM]

[Edited by - bippity10 on 10-23-2006 5:07 PM]
I just hope that people will like me
nixluva
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10/23/2006  6:17 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

So that answers my question, there are times when it's okay not to give your all. Even when coming off an entire season in which you didn't work hard. Even when fighting for positions that you are forced to earn because everyone has something to prove. Even when the coach is trying to figure out what the team really has after a wasted season in which everyone admitted they quit on the coach not allowing to show us what type of team we have. Got it!

So what are you saying? Should Isiah basically play every preseason game to win instead of using the time to find out things about his team that he can't experiment with in the season? Should he not even play any of the guys not likely to be in the rotation, so that we can just try to blowout teams? How about using everything in the playbook just like you would in the regular season? Why even make a distinction between preseason and regular season as a coach? Play your starters full regular season minutes and tighten the rotation from preseason game one. Let's be a bit more reasonable in how we see this team's effort in preseason.

The truth is that this team is gonna have to use the entire season to grow as a team and this is just the beginning of this teams climb towards a contender.
islesfan
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10/23/2006  6:54 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

he'll be good in the playoffs or he'll be involved in that magical trade for KG or JO.

Either way, it's his defense where he looks uncomfortable, his offense seems to be pretty good (looking at stats purely).

If he's as uncomfortable as David Lee looks comfortable, then you guys may get your wish and he'll be coming off the bench behind the extremely productive and comfortable looking david lee.

Pick and pop is what's used at the end of games when possessions mean something...that's when he will be needed/utilized.

If he wants to use that as an excuse, so be it...but he was allowed to "do his thing" and "play his game" or "utilize his talents" last year and we won 23 games.

Any difference from last year to this year is being met with open arms.

If we have to sacrifice Frye's pick and pop game to make the playoffs and grow as a team, then so be it.

Same with marbury and anybody else on the team.

BTW...I disagree with your assessment of the quote...also, can you provide a link, the quote seems half attributed to Isiah and half a commentary by the Newsday reporter...did zeke say he looks uncomfortable?

Oh, just reread it, he says he is NOT feeling frustrated as he sometimes looks.

I'm so confused.

islesfat, can you sort it out for me?

I'll sort it out for you.

You're a complete moron. You have no chance in hell of ever conprehending the simplest of concepts. You don't even understand that 18 is not 20. There is no hope for you.

Do yourself and the rest of us a favor and veer into that oncoming truck and end all the misery that we all have to endure by you posting here.

Thanks in advance.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bippity10
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10/23/2006  7:10 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by Bippity10:

So that answers my question, there are times when it's okay not to give your all. Even when coming off an entire season in which you didn't work hard. Even when fighting for positions that you are forced to earn because everyone has something to prove. Even when the coach is trying to figure
out what the team really has after a wasted season in which everyone admitted they quit on the coach not allowing to show us what type of team we have. Got it!

So what are you saying? Should Isiah basically play every preseason game to win instead of using the time to find out things about his team that he can't experiment with in the season? Should he not even play any of the guys not likely to be in the rotation, so that we can just try to blowout teams? How about using everything in the playbook just like you would in the regular season? Why even make a distinction between preseason and regular season as a coach? Play your starters full regular season minutes and tighten the rotation from preseason game one. Let's be a bit more reasonable in how we see this team's effort in preseason.

The truth is that this team is gonna have to use the entire season to grow as a team and this is just the beginning of this teams climb towards a contender.


Where did you get that from what I've said. Was I bashing Isiah for bringing in rookies. No as a matter of fact since now you've taught me that it's okay for Steph and Stevie and the vets to take some time off I'm wondering why Isiah isn't playing the rookies and 2nd year guys ALL THE MINUTES. Why are we bothering playing guys that are not going to hustle. Or did they hustle last night and I just missed it?

Last night was a replay of last year. We fell behind(for whatever reason) and we quit. We rolled over and died. The going got tough and we quit. Just like we did game to game last year and just like we did on our coach last year. I'm just wondering when is it that I can expect 100% effort. It obviously wasn't last year becasue we hated LB. And it's not the pre-season. So can I expect it during the regular season? Or should I wait a couple weeks/months for our guys to get used to the offense before I should expect hustle and smart play.

31 turnovers total. 25 committed by guys that are going to be in the rotation and we aren't allowed to say anything about that. No comments. Just accept it. Our team is so fragile that our coach won't criticize 31 turnovers for fear that he may hurt some feelings. I say we keep lowering the standards here and not complain until we hit 50 turnovers.

I have no problem with the team playing poorly if the effort is there. There should never be a time that it's okay to play half asse. You apparently think there is. I guess that's where we differ.
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nixluva
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10/23/2006  7:27 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

I have no problem with the team playing poorly if the effort is there. There should never be a time that it's okay to play half asse. You apparently think there is. I guess that's where we differ.

No one is saying it's OK. The difference is that you seem to be taking the significance of one bad PRESEASON game too seriously. No single game no matter how bad, is worth making such a big deal over. As if playing one PRESEASON stinker is going to totally undo everthing the team is working on in practice every day. If that one game is so important then why not take the importance of the 3 other games into account as well?
BlueSeats
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10/23/2006  9:03 PM
Posted by nixluva:
No one is saying it's OK. The difference is that you seem to be taking the significance of one bad PRESEASON game too seriously. No single game no matter how bad, is worth making such a big deal over. As if playing one PRESEASON stinker is going to totally undo everthing the team is working on in practice every day. If that one game is so important then why not take the importance of the 3 other games into account as well?


nixluva, you're a parent, right? As a parent aren't there things that are unacceptable even if they aren't that significant? What if your kid is a model student 4 days out of the week and on the 5th day he curses at the principal? It doesn't mean they're destined for failure, it's simply unacceptable. What about drunk driving? You know, like is it okay if they only do it on weekends?

I don't want to escalate this into the absurd, but I just want to make the point that no one here has said we're doomed because of this, simply that it is more of the same and it should be considered unacceptable.
TrueBlue
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10/23/2006  9:33 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by nixluva:
No one is saying it's OK. The difference is that you seem to be taking the significance of one bad PRESEASON game too seriously. No single game no matter how bad, is worth making such a big deal over. As if playing one PRESEASON stinker is going to totally undo everthing the team is working on in practice every day. If that one game is so important then why not take the importance of the 3 other games into account as well?


nixluva, you're a parent, right? As a parent aren't there things that are unacceptable even if they aren't that significant? What if your kid is a model student 4 days out of the week and on the 5th day he curses at the principal? It doesn't mean they're destined for failure, it's simply unacceptable. What about drunk driving? You know, like is it okay if they only do it on weekends?

I don't want to escalate this into the absurd, but I just want to make the point that no one here has said we're doomed because of this, simply that it is more of the same and it should be considered unacceptable.


Nixluva just needs to put the Pom-Poms down and take off the rose colored glasses. I mean you have guys, as Hubie Brown's dad once told him, that are "One Step Away From The Street", busting their azzz trying to make a squad. I wonder how Jayson Williams feels? I'm sure he's thinking "You know I'm on waivers and that's ok because it's still preseason. I was just seeing where my game is at compared to the other players. When I get my next opportunity I'm going all out and will secure my spot on a team." That reason alone is why it's ultimately disrespectful to quantify and/or disqualify the importance of (before, during, or even after playing)...... these games. Remember.... Papa Zeke stated before the season started that their mental state is fragile. Going out and laying down in games like a Dime-Trick-Hoe at the first sign of adversity only proves he's correct.


[Edited by - SeatsBlue on 10-23-2006 8:34 PM]

[Edited by - SeatsBlue on 10-23-2006 8:38 PM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
joec32033
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10/24/2006  12:07 AM
I say we keep lowering the standards here and not complain until we hit 50 turnovers.

Well, at least we wouldn't have hit 55 TO's because thhat may be one or two too many.
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newyorknewyork
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10/24/2006  12:28 AM
I gotta agree with Blueseats on this one. There is definatly reason to be concernd if the team played lazy and with no effort.

Now to say that it has been the case the last 2 seasons is not true. We lost 18games the yr before last by 2pts or less. We didn't lose because of lack of effort. We lost because we weren't good enough to win down the stretch of games.

Last season it was a problem. And after going through what we did last season to see it happen again even in preseason, i can understand the concern. No enough for a 4page thread argueing about it especially after they played 3 good games before hand. But we should be concernd with the last game.
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BlueSeats
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10/24/2006  1:55 AM
Posted by newyorknewyork:

I gotta agree with Blueseats on this one. There is definatly reason to be concernd if the team played lazy and with no effort.

Now to say that it has been the case the last 2 seasons is not true. We lost 18games the yr before last by 2pts or less. We didn't lose because of lack of effort. We lost because we weren't good enough to win down the stretch of games.

Last season it was a problem. And after going through what we did last season to see it happen again even in preseason, i can understand the concern. No enough for a 4page thread argueing about it especially after they played 3 good games before hand. But we should be concernd with the last game.


That's a typo, we lost 8 games by 2 pts or less. But thats out of 49 losses. So the converse of your stat is that we lost 41 games by three points or more.

We lost 17 games by 10 pts or more. We lost 13 games by 15 pts or more. We lost 7 games by 20 or more. We had a 7 games losing streak, a 9 game losing streak, and a 2-16 stretch that immediately followed Marbury's "I'm the best" comments.

It was pretty bad.
newyorknewyork
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10/24/2006  6:48 AM
It wasn't a typo. It was just wrong info. My fault

But im pretty sure if you add a point and make it 3pt-4pt losses that 8 would jump up to a higher #s. I remember a lot of close games.

Its rough to really use these #s though to tell if they played hard or with effort or not. We could have been down by 15 the whole game and brought it to 4-2 within the last few mins. Or we could have been down by 4 basically the whole game and then the opponent raises the score to 10 or more pts the last few mins of the game. Then there is games that are competitive for 3 quarters and then a team takes over while the other team struggles.

So going by memory, I recall a ton of battles that yr which we basically lost every one. But I remember a lot of battles and tough losses that yr. Sure there were games where we didn't give it our all which happends with every team. But I don't remember us being anything close to being as effortless as last season. Losing streaks don't give you a good measurement of effort either. As 5 of those 7 losses could be hard fought games I just don't remember to well though I will admit.

When we went 2-16 which basically killed our season we also lost Jamal Crawford, Alan Houston, Kurt Thomas, Sweetney, Tim Thomas each for a stretch of time and im pretty sure im missing someone. We were an average team (without Houston who only played I think 9 games) who needed everything to go right to be a above average team. We were a team that was overmatched vs a lot of teams. We had inconsistant offensive perimeter players with not one defensive wing that could challenge the Pierce(s) of the world. Any guard with speed could get by Marbury any guard with size, speed, or power could get by Crawford. We had absolutly no depth at PG or SG with Houston & Penny both out. We had no size or athletism up front. Muhammad was solid, but inconsistant offensively and wasn't a great defender in the post either. Anyone with athletism would kill him & KT.

Every player that yr put up there career #s as a starter or better and we still only won 33games. We didn't have the defense, depth at guard, size or atheltism in the frontcourt. If we were healthier than we were that month. With Crawford not forcing Houston to play starter mins and implode and TT & KT not missing that time to go along with it. We probably win 40games that yr. Not great but slightly under the 45games we were all hopeing for. If everything went our way.

2 yrs ago we were an overmatched team who with some breaks could have gotten into the playoffs. But we didn't get them actually we got the opposite. Last yr with the addition of Curry, Frye, Lee, Nate, Richardson though we were still not well constructed we had enough fire power to get it done. But the players played effortless while Larry Brown acted like a jackass.

Thats my case to why I don't believe you could say that we played effortless 2 seasons in a row. But I understand that its all about the end results.17games was lost by 10, 13 by 15, 7 by 20, with a 7 game losing streak, and a 2-16month which is basically the 7 game losing streaks definatly does seem like they didn't play with effort. But I just don't remember it that way. I remember a ton of heart breakers
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Bippity10
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10/24/2006  9:06 AM
Posted by newyorknewyork:

It wasn't a typo. It was just wrong info. My fault

But im pretty sure if you add a point and make it 3pt-4pt losses that 8 would jump up to a higher #s. I remember a lot of close games.

Its rough to really use these #s though to tell if they played hard or with effort or not. We could have been down by 15 the whole game and brought it to 4-2 within the last few mins. Or we could have been down by 4 basically the whole game and then the opponent raises the score to 10 or more pts the last few mins of the game. Then there is games that are competitive for 3 quarters and then a team takes over while the other team struggles.

So going by memory, I recall a ton of battles that yr which we basically lost every one. But I remember a lot of battles and tough losses that yr. Sure there were games where we didn't give it our all which happends with every team. But I don't remember us being anything close to being as effortless as last season. Losing streaks don't give you a good measurement of effort either. As 5 of those 7 losses could be hard fought games I just don't remember to well though I will admit.

When we went 2-16 which basically killed our season we also lost Jamal Crawford, Alan Houston, Kurt Thomas, Sweetney, Tim Thomas each for a stretch of time and im pretty sure im missing someone. We were an average team (without Houston who only played I think 9 games) who needed everything to go right to be a above average team. We were a team that was overmatched vs a lot of teams. We had inconsistant offensive perimeter players with not one defensive wing that could challenge the Pierce(s) of the world. Any guard with speed could get by Marbury any guard with size, speed, or power could get by Crawford. We had absolutly no depth at PG or SG with Houston & Penny both out. We had no size or athletism up front. Muhammad was solid, but inconsistant offensively and wasn't a great defender in the post either. Anyone with athletism would kill him & KT.

Every player that yr put up there career #s as a starter or better and we still only won 33games. We didn't have the defense, depth at guard, size or atheltism in the frontcourt. If we were healthier than we were that month. With Crawford not forcing Houston to play starter mins and implode and TT & KT not missing that time to go along with it. We probably win 40games that yr. Not great but slightly under the 45games we were all hopeing for. If everything went our way.

2 yrs ago we were an overmatched team who with some breaks could have gotten into the playoffs. But we didn't get them actually we got the opposite. Last yr with the addition of Curry, Frye, Lee, Nate, Richardson though we were still not well constructed we had enough fire power to get it done. But the players played effortless while Larry Brown acted like a jackass.

Thats my case to why I don't believe you could say that we played effortless 2 seasons in a row. But I understand that its all about the end results.17games was lost by 10, 13 by 15, 7 by 20, with a 7 game losing streak, and a 2-16month which is basically the 7 game losing streaks definatly does seem like they didn't play with effort. But I just don't remember it that way. I remember a ton of heart breakers

If you remember we lost a few very close games because we made the same mistakes down the stretch over and over again. Key turnovers, missed shots and blown defensive assignments. It was the same mistakes over and over again. Our key guys never learning. Last year was miserable. This preseason we have played well. And if anyone is over-reacting I would say it's Nixluva over-reacting to any sort of negative comment. Very few are saying we are doomed. But if you can't complain about the effort last night than I guess you will never be able to complain.

I guess I just need to know what the standard is today. It wasn't 20 turnovers and lackadaisical play. It's not 31 turnovers and going through the motions. When can I complain? Is it 40 turnovers? 50? Where do we draw the line and stop sugarcoating things for the players. When are we as Knick fans allowed to demand effort EVERY GAME WITHOUT EXCUSES? Notice I did not say perfect play. I said effort. Last night was a repeat of last year. It doesn't mean that we will be like last year. But it does mean that many of the issues of last year are still here. And if we want to sugarcoat them and pretend they aren't major issues than they won't be fixed.
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