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53 mill, c'mon!
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BlueSeats
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9/25/2006  12:14 AM
Posted by wsdm:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by wsdm:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by wsdm:
Posted by Marv:

look we'll never know what wouild have happend, but it did seem like all were on the same page till marbs got hurt and ad went into the stands. larry seemed to have the right formula down, and don't forgtet it included starting nate at the 2 and dlee at the 3. marbs played great and he and larry were synching. curry played by far his best ball because ad was playing more llike a center on the boards and eddy got to do his cherry-picking off of that. plus he had dlee's strong rebounding at the 3. the rotation was much tighter, with craw and frye excelling off the bench and trevor giving productive minutes. even the stubborn larry was sticking with this formula, and it was working. but scratch steph and ad and it all fell apart. reenter a physically-limited stteph into a now-losing atmosphere, and he and larry turned into oil and water.
Larry sure didn't help things when he messed with what was working and took Lee and Nate out of the SL and started giving Frye inconsistent minutes. But heck, at least we got to watch Malik start and get his spin moves blocked.

He stayed with lee and nate until it was clear it wasn't working, Then francis and rose were brought in to further confuse the situation. And Malik got less minuets than any of Frye, Lee or Nate, and really only racked up starts when AD was gone and Frye was hurt.
Too bad he didn't stop going to Malik once it was clear that was working far worse than playing Lee or Frye was.

As evidenced by WHAT exactly?

a) Malik is a 6'4" PF with no basketball abilities;
b) he has one of the worst +/- figures in the league (i.e., few players in the entire league hurt their teams more every time they step onto the court).

Our two best periods of play were during the win streak in January when AD started, and then a 3 game win streak near the end of the season with Malik starting.

I find stuff like that far more evidentiary than Malik's height, but that's just me.
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oohah
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9/25/2006  6:20 AM
Our two best periods of play were during the win streak in January when AD started, and then a 3 game win streak near the end of the season with Malik starting.

I find stuff like that far more evidentiary than Malik's height, but that's just me.

I would have to check, but I beleive that in many of those games during the streak AD's minutes shrank by quite a bit even though he did start.

Even if Rose did start during that 3 game streak, the streak was virtually meaningless. Who cares who started? Overall Rose was a negative on the court. I did not see his defense or team spirit making any real difference.

I would prefer to see Rose go over any other player.


oohah



Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
BlueSeats
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9/25/2006  8:01 AM
Posted by oohah:
Our two best periods of play were during the win streak in January when AD started, and then a 3 game win streak near the end of the season with Malik starting.

I find stuff like that far more evidentiary than Malik's height, but that's just me.

I would have to check, but I beleive that in many of those games during the streak AD's minutes shrank by quite a bit even though he did start.

Even if Rose did start during that 3 game streak, the streak was virtually meaningless. Who cares who started? Overall Rose was a negative on the court. I did not see his defense or team spirit making any real difference.

I would prefer to see Rose go over any other player.


I understand that sentiment, he's not that attractive of a player. I just think his use gets blown so out of proportion.`Brown was simply desperate to have one veteran among the troops who could set a tone of effort and stability on court and off. And I don't think a guy really holds players respect unless he's also in the trenches and on the battle field with them. So Malik was given token minutes.

In MPG he ranked 12th on the team. In total minutes he ranked 11th (if jalen and francis are prorated.)

So I just think people blow his use out of proportion.

Similar situation with AD. People point to his use as further evidence of Brown's senility. Well nobody thought that of Skiles, who started him for 62 of his 72 games. He was considered a great compliment to Curry on court and off. This year a 37 yr old PJ Brown may play a similar role for them.

I just think a team like the Bulls are confident enough in their rebuild that using players like them doesn't throw everything into question as it does here. If Isiah's "stars" and other veterans weren't so damn deficient of character and effort we wouldn't need to be leaning so heavily on guys like AD and Malik (as the 12th man), and if we did it wouldn't be seen as such a net negative as we wouldn't be in the gutter and trying to blame their use for it.
wsdm
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9/25/2006  8:02 AM
Posted by oohah:
Our two best periods of play were during the win streak in January when AD started, and then a 3 game win streak near the end of the season with Malik starting.

I find stuff like that far more evidentiary than Malik's height, but that's just me.

I would have to check, but I beleive that in many of those games during the streak AD's minutes shrank by quite a bit even though he did start.

Even if Rose did start during that 3 game streak, the streak was virtually meaningless. Who cares who started? Overall Rose was a negative on the court. I did not see his defense or team spirit making any real difference.

I would prefer to see Rose go over any other player.


oohah
Why rely on an 82 game sample for Malik's +/- when you could rely on a meaningless 3 game sample?!
www.selltheknicks.com----No more DOLANOMICS!
BlueSeats
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9/25/2006  8:09 AM
Posted by wsdm:
Posted by oohah:
Our two best periods of play were during the win streak in January when AD started, and then a 3 game win streak near the end of the season with Malik starting.

I find stuff like that far more evidentiary than Malik's height, but that's just me.

I would have to check, but I beleive that in many of those games during the streak AD's minutes shrank by quite a bit even though he did start.

Even if Rose did start during that 3 game streak, the streak was virtually meaningless. Who cares who started? Overall Rose was a negative on the court. I did not see his defense or team spirit making any real difference.

I would prefer to see Rose go over any other player.


oohah
Why rely on an 82 game sample for Malik's +/- when you could rely on a meaningless 3 game sample?!


That 82games stuff can be taken too far. You know who has they highest on/off the floor net positives? Butler and Hardaway.

The point being, there are certain intangiables a player can bring that don't show up in stats. It's still a team game, not 5 simultaneous games of 1-on-1 out there.

wsdm
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9/25/2006  8:14 AM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by wsdm:
Posted by oohah:
Our two best periods of play were during the win streak in January when AD started, and then a 3 game win streak near the end of the season with Malik starting.

I find stuff like that far more evidentiary than Malik's height, but that's just me.

I would have to check, but I beleive that in many of those games during the streak AD's minutes shrank by quite a bit even though he did start.

Even if Rose did start during that 3 game streak, the streak was virtually meaningless. Who cares who started? Overall Rose was a negative on the court. I did not see his defense or team spirit making any real difference.

I would prefer to see Rose go over any other player.


oohah
Why rely on an 82 game sample for Malik's +/- when you could rely on a meaningless 3 game sample?!


That 82games stuff can be taken too far. You know who has they highest on/off the floor net positives? Butler and Hardaway.

The point being, there are certain intangiables a player can bring that don't show up in stats.
You can't look at that stuff in isolation, for sure. But if it fits the pattern of other stats and what you see on the floor, it makes sense. In Malik's case, it does: He's a 35% FG PF with no basketball abilities. It's not stunning that his +/- would be a disaster.
It's still a team game, not 5 simultaneous games of 1-on-1 out there.
I think there's confusion about the +/- stat. It does look at how the team does with the player on the floor. It's not a 1 on 1 statistic.
www.selltheknicks.com----No more DOLANOMICS!
BlueSeats
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9/25/2006  8:26 AM
WSD, we're talking about 12th man minutes, most gotten after the departure of AD and the injury to Frye. He wa simply used to set a positive tone and example.

If you really put a lot of stock in those stats you must be pretty pissed off we don't start Butler and Penny!
Swishfm3
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9/25/2006  8:34 AM
I don't want it to happen but I think LB will get most of that contract money.

and as far as this battle between Nix and NYK...Nix, why do you even bother? It's obvious that NYK has never played any kind of organized team sport.
wsdm
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9/25/2006  11:49 AM
Posted by BlueSeats:

WSD, we're talking about 12th man minutes, most gotten after the departure of AD and the injury to Frye. He wa simply used to set a positive tone and example.

If you really put a lot of stock in those stats you must be pretty pissed off we don't start Butler and Penny!
I think Butler did have a positive impact on the game compared to the players he was subbing for (mostly Curry and sometimes JJ). Penny had like a 2 or 3 game sample that of course you can't put any weight into. Malik had a large sample of games in which the team struggle with him on the court. But you don't need those stats to see that Malik can't do anything positive. We're not talking about 12th man minutes. We're talking about a starter who played in nearly every game. 12th man would have been a smart role to give Malik.

www.selltheknicks.com----No more DOLANOMICS!
BlueSeats
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9/25/2006  1:17 PM
Posted by wsdm:
Posted by BlueSeats:

WSD, we're talking about 12th man minutes, most gotten after the departure of AD and the injury to Frye. He wa simply used to set a positive tone and example.

If you really put a lot of stock in those stats you must be pretty pissed off we don't start Butler and Penny!
I think Butler did have a positive impact on the game compared to the players he was subbing for (mostly Curry and sometimes JJ). Penny had like a 2 or 3 game sample that of course you can't put any weight into. Malik had a large sample of games in which the team struggle with him on the court. But you don't need those stats to see that Malik can't do anything positive. We're not talking about 12th man minutes. We're talking about a starter who played in nearly every game. 12th man would have been a smart role to give Malik.


Well we agree on Butler, and I'd have definitely kept him. But that might just say as much about our alternatives as it does about him.

As for Malik, what can I tell you, he did get 12th man minutes, but in a year Frye went down and EVERYONE got PT.

Truth be told I could give two squats about Malik, though I do think this team is sorely devoid of the type of character and side-kick sort of leadership he can provide.

But what I realize from all of this is that the optimist thinks our problems come from our scrubs while the pessimist thinks they come from our stars. That makes me a pessimist.

Killa4luv
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9/25/2006  1:44 PM
It is comical to see working class people root for a rich guy to get more than the value of his contract from a richer guy.

You freaking bafoons. Perhaps you wish for him to get all of his contract, perhaps you wish for him to get none, but wishing for him to get more than the value of his contract is first class stupidity.

wsdm
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9/25/2006  6:24 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by wsdm:
Posted by BlueSeats:

WSD, we're talking about 12th man minutes, most gotten after the departure of AD and the injury to Frye. He wa simply used to set a positive tone and example.

If you really put a lot of stock in those stats you must be pretty pissed off we don't start Butler and Penny!
I think Butler did have a positive impact on the game compared to the players he was subbing for (mostly Curry and sometimes JJ). Penny had like a 2 or 3 game sample that of course you can't put any weight into. Malik had a large sample of games in which the team struggle with him on the court. But you don't need those stats to see that Malik can't do anything positive. We're not talking about 12th man minutes. We're talking about a starter who played in nearly every game. 12th man would have been a smart role to give Malik.


Well we agree on Butler, and I'd have definitely kept him. But that might just say as much about our alternatives as it does about him.

As for Malik, what can I tell you, he did get 12th man minutes, but in a year Frye went down and EVERYONE got PT.

Truth be told I could give two squats about Malik, though I do think this team is sorely devoid of the type of character and side-kick sort of leadership he can provide.

But what I realize from all of this is that the optimist thinks our problems come from our scrubs while the pessimist thinks they come from our stars. That makes me a pessimist.
Really? I think our problem comes from ownership. Not sure what that makes me then!

www.selltheknicks.com----No more DOLANOMICS!
oohah
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9/25/2006  7:06 PM
If we all chipped in a buck...Brown don't even deserve that.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
BlueSeats
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9/25/2006  7:28 PM
Posted by wsdm:
Really? I think our problem comes from ownership. Not sure what that makes me then!

Makes you right!

Nalod
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9/25/2006  10:24 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:

It is comical to see working class people root for a rich guy to get more than the value of his contract from a richer guy.

You freaking bafoons. Perhaps you wish for him to get all of his contract, perhaps you wish for him to get none, but wishing for him to get more than the value of his contract is first class stupidity.


What Im gonna be some blue collar stiff who gotta root for him to not get his contract just cuz its more money than I'll ever see?

At the same rate, I hope dolan goes to jail for back dating options and I hope he gets screwed for Anucha.

Hiring larry was the ultimate starphuch. Dolan starphuched himself with isiah, who in turn magnified with the biggest starphuch in history! No thought behind what they are doing.

The petty 40 day bull$hit act of gag order made me sick! It was small and petty!

I hope Larry gets every dime and damages and I hope then Stern takes him aside and gets him to listen up and get his act together!

MSG is a corruption with no decent men running it!

I hope Anucha gets a boat load of money if they are found to have been in the wrong!
nyk4ever
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9/25/2006  10:49 PM
Posted by Nalod:
Posted by Killa4luv:

It is comical to see working class people root for a rich guy to get more than the value of his contract from a richer guy.

You freaking bafoons. Perhaps you wish for him to get all of his contract, perhaps you wish for him to get none, but wishing for him to get more than the value of his contract is first class stupidity.


What Im gonna be some blue collar stiff who gotta root for him to not get his contract just cuz its more money than I'll ever see?

Thats exactly what I thought too Nalod.

"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
oohah
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9/25/2006  10:58 PM
The petty 40 day bull$hit act of gag order made me sick! It was small and petty!

A taste of his own medicine! What's good for the goose is good for the gander!
I hope Larry gets every dime and damages and I hope then Stern takes him aside and gets him to listen up and get his act together!

$50 sez he won't listen!
MSG is a corruption with no decent men running it!

LB fit right in!

oohah!

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
buddapaw
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9/26/2006  9:40 AM
Posted by oohah:
The petty 40 day bull$hit act of gag order made me sick! It was small and petty!

A taste of his own medicine! What's good for the goose is good for the gander!
I hope Larry gets every dime and damages and I hope then Stern takes him aside and gets him to listen up and get his act together!

$50 sez he won't listen!
MSG is a corruption with no decent men running it!

LB fit right in!

oohah!
That's for sure
"Low Percentage Shots r US, these are our Knicks" "NY KNICKS the cure for basketball fanatic"
crzymdups
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9/26/2006  1:17 PM
So, looks like poor, misunderstood LB had a job lined up anyway in Philly. Ironically, he sat with Billy King all through the pre-draft camp in Orlando, while he was still under contract with the Knicks. But good ole LB would never do a thing like that would he? nah. no way. not our LB.

He's a slimeball. anyone who still believes that LB actually tried to win a single game last year is misguided. he was trying to either get Isiah fired and get roster control OR get himself fired and get a big pay day for no work. he got the latter. good for him. anyone who blames the roster and not Larry should be ashamed of themselves. these were men and they were treated like kindergarteners. if you chastize the team defense, let me ask this - what was the team plan for defense? did a guy even know when he was going in the game? did he even know what position he'd be guarding or who he'd be playing with? is it the players responsibility to ask the coach to use a zone defense at times?

Larry Brown was a heinous excuse for a coach under us. I won't even bring up his little "acid reflux" game which he later claimed was "just the flu." what a joke. everyone says Isiah makes the Knicks look bad, but in 20yrs of watching this team I have never seen anyone disgrace this franchise as much as Larry Brown did. and people still defend him! outrageous.
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martin
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9/26/2006  1:20 PM
Posted by crzymdups:

So, looks like poor, misunderstood LB had a job lined up anyway in Philly. Ironically, he sat with Billy King all through the pre-draft camp in Orlando, while he was still under contract with the Knicks. But good ole LB would never do a thing like that would he? nah. no way. not our LB.

if you knew your employer was going to fire you would you sit home and watch TV or start smoozing on the street. That's just human nature. Plus, all of these guys are friends, but I guess that could look like anything if you want it to.

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