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800 pound gorilla thread: LB case to be decided:
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BlueSeats
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9/19/2006  2:16 PM

NEW YORK, April 10 – The New York Knicks’ Jamal Crawford and the Seattle SuperSonics’ Chris Wilcox today were named the Eastern and Western Conference Players of the Week, respectively, for games played Monday, April 3 through Sunday, April 9.

Behind Crawford’s averages of 26.3 points, 6.0 rebounds, 3.3 assists, 2.25 steals and two game-winning jumpers, the Knicks went 3-1 versus Eastern Conference foes Washington, Cleveland, Indiana and Boston. On April 5, Crawford capped off a 37-point effort with a game-winning jumper to lead the Knicks past the Cavaliers 96-94. On April 7, he connected on a jumper with less than a second on the clock to defeat the Pacers 98-96.

Today, Crawford will be honored essentially as the Knicks' MVP - called the OppenheimerFunds Team Contributor Award - for his performance on and off the court. After the Cleveland win, Brown lavished Crawford with the highest praise he's bestowed during this 20-54 catastrophe.

"He's the most improved player I've ever coached," Brown said. "He's as good a kid as I've ever been around. He does things for the team to a fault."

"I'd be crazy to not listen to a Hall of Famer who's seen everything," Crawford said. "He's coached great players. That's what I want to be, a great player. I'd be crazy not to listen to him. I always feel he knows what's best for our team."
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rvhoss
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9/19/2006  2:25 PM
Yet BS and Nyk4 hang on his every word because they agree with their outdated opinion of brown. makes sense.
Posted by Rich:

Yup, he couldn't be anymore fatuous or patronizing.

all kool aid all the time.
rvhoss
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9/19/2006  2:28 PM
They won a title in Hoosiers...remember?

They didn't lose EVERY GAME!

You are agreeing with me that larry never changed and decided to give up on the players in the same manner they gave up on him.

In Hoosiers, they all saw that the coach knew what he was doing, the jury is still out on Larry brown.
Posted by islesfan:

SlimPack, I'm just showing how a coach could make an example of a player but with the best interests of the team as a whole.

All of these so-called "sabotage" moves that LB made should be seen in this light. Unconventional? Maybe, but it's completely consistent with what LB has done his entire illustrious career.

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martin
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9/19/2006  2:33 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

They won a title in Hoosiers...remember?

They didn't lose EVERY GAME!

You are agreeing with me that larry never changed and decided to give up on the players in the same manner they gave up on him.

In Hoosiers, they all saw that the coach knew what he was doing, the jury is still out on Larry brown.
Posted by islesfan:

SlimPack, I'm just showing how a coach could make an example of a player but with the best interests of the team as a whole.

All of these so-called "sabotage" moves that LB made should be seen in this light. Unconventional? Maybe, but it's completely consistent with what LB has done his entire illustrious career.

did you even watch the movie? The kids fought tooth and nail for a while. And with super ego stars like Marb it takes a whole lot more than just a few games or even 1 season. Look at the AI example. High school kids are malleable, pros are not.
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rvhoss
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9/19/2006  2:34 PM
Larry is all talk...if you haven't figured it out by now, then you are blind to the obvious.

I can easily pull the Curry is the franchise quote, or when he said marbury is doing everything he has asked and then some.

Then the next week it's back in the dog house.

Hanging on this particular coaches every word and paraphrasing it for your own devices is getting old, weak and almost unbearable.

LB sucked last year, nothing he did last year was done previously by him at any other stop. I can point to the record lineups and starting players in their home towns as prime examples.

To keep saying the last year larry brown was the same old larry brown is wrong. To say that he did everything in his power to COACH last year is wrong.

We're not saying he is totally to blame, but you guys are saying he's totally innocent...that's weak.
Posted by BlueSeats:


NEW YORK, April 10 – The New York Knicks’ Jamal Crawford and the Seattle SuperSonics’ Chris Wilcox today were named the Eastern and Western Conference Players of the Week, respectively, for games played Monday, April 3 through Sunday, April 9.

Behind Crawford’s averages of 26.3 points, 6.0 rebounds, 3.3 assists, 2.25 steals and two game-winning jumpers, the Knicks went 3-1 versus Eastern Conference foes Washington, Cleveland, Indiana and Boston. On April 5, Crawford capped off a 37-point effort with a game-winning jumper to lead the Knicks past the Cavaliers 96-94. On April 7, he connected on a jumper with less than a second on the clock to defeat the Pacers 98-96.

Today, Crawford will be honored essentially as the Knicks' MVP - called the OppenheimerFunds Team Contributor Award - for his performance on and off the court. After the Cleveland win, Brown lavished Crawford with the highest praise he's bestowed during this 20-54 catastrophe.

"He's the most improved player I've ever coached," Brown said. "He's as good a kid as I've ever been around. He does things for the team to a fault."

"I'd be crazy to not listen to a Hall of Famer who's seen everything," Crawford said. "He's coached great players. That's what I want to be, a great player. I'd be crazy not to listen to him. I always feel he knows what's best for our team."

all kool aid all the time.
BlueSeats
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9/19/2006  2:37 PM
Posted by rvhoss:
You are agreeing with me that larry never changed and decided to give up on the players in the same manner they gave up on him.

Richardson made a point to defend Brown and place the blame on the players.

"This has been going on the whole season so I don't want to say that coach is losing the team," he said. "I take my hat off to coach and the whole coaching staff. I don't know how they made it this far with us.

"I think a lot of people in that position would say forget it. None of the coaches have done that."

nyk4ever
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9/19/2006  2:39 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

Yet BS and Nyk4 hang on his every word because they agree with their outdated opinion of brown. makes sense.
Posted by Rich:

Yup, he couldn't be anymore fatuous or patronizing.

Atleast I have a opinion that I formulated myself instead of taking bits and pieces from other posters and the media. But hey your the #1 fan and even better yet, your nothing but a male cheerleader and thats just plain sad.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 09-19-2006 2:45 PM]
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BlueSeats
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9/19/2006  2:44 PM
Posted by rvhoss:
Hanging on this particular coaches every word and paraphrasing it for your own devices is getting old, weak and almost unbearable.

You see what you want to see. Everything I've been quoting has come from the PLAYERS, not the coach.
We're not saying he is totally to blame, but you guys are saying he's totally innocent...that's weak.

Give up the straw-man gimmick. Since you can't fight the quotes from his own players you instead pretend the battle is against someone who proclaims him totally innocent.

In this very thread I acknowledge Brown's shortcomings. But he succeeded in spite of those shortcomings everywhere but here, and it's this team's dynamic of failure, that he tried to reverse but could not, that I find so fascinating.


[Edited by - blueSeats on 09-19-2006 2:48 PM]
rvhoss
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9/19/2006  2:46 PM
he never won a championship until he was handed one on a silver platter and then he coached his asss off.

But historically speaking, he's considered a choker that can't win the big game...oh, that's why you like him.
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martin
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9/19/2006  3:00 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

he never won a championship until he was handed one on a silver platter and then he coached his asss off.

But historically speaking, he's considered a choker that can't win the big game...oh, that's why you like him.

DManning ring a bell? Also took AI and role players to the finals, not bad. And how many people chose Detroit role players over Shaq, Kobe, Payton, Malone? No one.
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BlueSeats
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9/19/2006  3:10 PM
^ hoss lives in Marbury's world, where championships are easy to come by... for everyone else. And for those without... a career of 60 wins seasons is the same as 23 win seasons.

That's why Marbury is a great player and this team is poised for success, even when it loses.
4949
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9/19/2006  6:19 PM
Posted by oohah:
Posted by 4949:
Posted by oohah:

And the verdict is:

F.uck LB. I hope he gets one year of salary. Technically, he didn't even coach last season.

oohah


A contract is a contract. Stupid Dolan deserves what he gets and Brown should get every cent owed to him. No way he gets only one year!!! If they can break that contract, then we should be able to break bone head starbury's contract also!!!


[Edited by - 4949 on 09-17-2006 04:06 AM]


I agree, a contract is a contract. That is why a coach should try to do his job whether he has his choice of players or not.

There have been strong indications that Brown was coaching to prove a point to get what he wanted (power?) rather than to try to win games. That is breach of contract in my book.

Starbury has his troubles but in my opinion his worst was outdone by LB at least threefold.

oohah

Breach: An act of breaking or failing to observe a law.

Well' there is no Knicks law in the books and how can Larry break a law when starbury was' the law, using his contract as an excuse for his attitude? I mean, who played who here? Even more, who's still here? Do you think starbury would have been gone first if he did not have that contract that we have to live up to? As far as I'm concerned, Larry was the coach and what he said should have been the law on the court. When you question the guy in the position of direction, then you undermind the whole situation and that's exactly what starbury did. I expect the same thing when Zeke tries to tell him what to do. Watch what happens.
I'll never trust this' team again.
4949
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9/19/2006  6:21 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

Fiduciary breach of contract
Failing to execute direct orders from superiors.[talking about subjects and players when he was told directly not to, or not following company policies]
Possibly refusing to coach current personell in that meeting with Dolan after the season, thereby forcing the NY Knicks management to take action.

There is NO arguement that *he coached bad*. No Lawyer with a sane mind will argue this point because it's a non-issue.
a. LB went to the finals 3 out of the last 5 years and has a HUGE track record of success. On top of that, MOST of his teams have had dramatic improvement from year 1. [and this is a point where larry's lawyers will argue and have a good deal of history to back them up]
b. coaches get FIRED all the time for coaching bad--but they still get PAID.

I think it will end where Larry gets paid 75% of what is owed or 30mm$


Very, very well put!

If Larry get only 75% of what's owed him, then we should make a case on starbury's contract, because he broke the law by not observing the law, by undermining the coach. That's a real beach of contract right there!


[Edited by - 4949 on 09-19-2006 6:24 PM]
I'll never trust this' team again.
4949
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9/19/2006  6:27 PM
Posted by Nalod:

Should Mebury only get a portion of his salary for his $hithead season?

what about Isiah, If he was fired whould he not get paid? I'd say his duties thus far have not been all that Stellar!

Larry gets the bulk of his money.

The only reaosn I see any relief is the 60mil in taxes paid is really nice for the leagues teams. Talk about charitable giving!

These are some of the very good reasons why the Knicks, in the first place, need to be more fiscally responsible witht he money they spend on people. It's just mind blowing having the highest payroll (no one's close) and having the second worst record! There's something seriously wrong here and should be a no brainer to figure out! But that's just it! There's no brains!
I'll never trust this' team again.
4949
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9/19/2006  6:33 PM
Posted by Rich:

If they were smart they would reach a settlement and not disclose it publicly.

I want Larry to win on this one. It's just wrong! And I want to know what he got. Our team is going waaaaayyyyyyyyyyy over board here and need to be brought back down to Earth, so we can start acting like a team again. People are laughing at us from all over the place1
I'll never trust this' team again.
4949
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9/19/2006  6:34 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

To me, this is the most telling aspect of all of this.
Posted by TheGame:

I will end by noting that, ever since LB's money has been on the line, we have not heard one word out of him. The Knicks could not get him to shutup during the season, but with his paycheck in jeopardy, the guy suddenly can avoid the press and keep his mouth shut. The guy is a total a-hole IMHO.

It's a legal case now. He can't' say anything.
I'll never trust this' team again.
4949
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9/19/2006  6:39 PM
Posted by joec32033:
Joe, isn't it team policy too that the coach should coach to win games not to make an example or whatever LB was doing? To use an extreme example, maybe he decides that everyone on the team should play wearing the left shoe on their right foot and vice-versa. That way nobody can drive. They have to shoot spot-up, but they aren't good at that!! Now they have been "exposed".

To me, that is what he did all-season, and he knew he was doing it, virtually tanking the season.

That's gotta violate something.

Bro, don't take this the wrong way-no disrespect intended, but I absolutely HATE his whole he didn't coach to win games theory. Even if it is true-good luck proving it. I personally don't believe if he did it it was in a malicious way.

Here is the thing there ARE circumstances where coaches do not coach to win games and it is ok to do so. Look at teams like ATL, Orlando after they traded Francis, Minny, Portland.

When a team is rebuilding coaches coach to teach youth not win really win-winning is a happy side effect if the youth gets it that game.

ATL is coaching to teach not to win-it is coaching to develop it's youth. Orlando took a chance trading Stevie (remember-everyone said we "only gave up Ariza") and giving the reigns to Jameer.

When you are rebuilding you coach to teach. When you are rebuilt, you coach to win.

Larry coaching to lose is rediculous! Larry was trying to get control' of his team and that's all it was. All they had to do is get out there and do what he wanted, but starbury led the way in the attitude problem this team developed towards the end of the season. The way Larry coaches is his style, love it or not, was the way we should have went. I hope he coaches again and proves once again his methods and what the Knicks lost out on.
I'll never trust this' team again.
4949
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9/19/2006  6:46 PM
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by nixluva:

Hey even LB's coaching friends didn't understand what he was doing. I don't care what kind of plan he was supposed to implementing, there's no way to justify what he did this year with this team. It was extremely shortsighted and it wasn't even necessary to go thru all of those mental games. WHY, cuz this team was headed towards a focus on youth without him having to do anything special. AD was on his last year, Jalen and Mo were on their last year the next season and Malik the season after that. We had Draft picks and the MLE to use to add his kind of players. We used those to add Jared and Balkman and Colins, players he approved of.

I'd like to add that LB has OFTEN been wrong about the players he's wanted to bring in and those he wanted to get rid of. So under no circumstances would I trust him to make all of those selections. The main thing is that we now have a roster with:

Curry, Jamal, Jared, Frye, Lee, Nate, QRich, Balkman, Collins. 9 players LB should've been able to coach with no problem. He then only had Steph and Francis as guys that he might not love to coach, but then no one PROMISED him a team full of guys that he loved. Most coaches have to deal with a team that's less than perfect. He wouldn't have died if he had to coach these players.

Huh? Curry had a history of being Lazy and playing no D. Nate is a shoot first PG-we know how LB LOVES them. Jamal is very coachable, but once again-he plays one side of the ball-but he DID buy into LB's system. Q-Rich, Lee, and Frye are the only guys you could have definitively said that LB "should have been able to coach with no problem last year". 2 were rookies in which the team "leader" bought them suits, and supposedly took them under his wing-then fought with the coach-who are the rookies gonna look up to? That leaves you with QRich who became a better defender, stood up to Marbury and had him saying Novenas in the fetal position, rocking in a corner hoping Q wouldn't kick his ass. The point is the roster LB had last year is not the roster you are saying he should have done good with this year.

LB's coaching friends also didn't see what was going on behind closed doors. Alot of coaches make very confusing decisions and they are all second guessed about it-what makes this time different?
I'd like to add that LB has OFTEN been wrong about the players he's wanted to bring in and those he wanted to get rid of. So under no circumstances would I trust him to make all of those selections.
That's why there is a GM. The GM should do his job. Isiah wanted a coach to fit the system. He got a coach that made the system the team had to fit to.
Steph and Francis as guys that he might not love to coach, but then no one PROMISED him a team full of guys that he loved. Most coaches have to deal with a team that's less than perfect.
You, me, or anybody don't KNOW what he was promised. Zeke put on a full court press for him and it is already known that Isiah will say ANHYTHING to at least just appease people and make them happy. He recruited LB for a couple months. You really don't think the roster situation came up? You think it is fathomable that LB said he would just coach whatever Zeke gave him?

[Edited by - joec32033 on 09-19-2006 08:24 AM]



obviously, we're still not over the Larry Brown saga and probably never will be, one way or another. At least not until he coaches again.
I'll never trust this' team again.
nyk4ever
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9/19/2006  6:52 PM
Posted by 4949:


Larry coaching to lose is rediculous! Larry was trying to get control' of his team and that's all it was. All they had to do is get out there and do what he wanted, but starbury led the way in the attitude problem this team developed towards the end of the season. The way Larry coaches is his style, love it or not, was the way we should have went. I hope he coaches again and proves once again his methods and what the Knicks lost out on.

Good post, I agree 100% but everyone here already knew that anyway.
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9/19/2006  10:53 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:

^ hoss lives in Marbury's world, where championships are easy to come by... for everyone else. And for those without... a career of 60 wins seasons is the same as 23 win seasons.

That's why Marbury is a great player and this team is poised for success, even when it loses.


when you cut open 60 win season and no championship, its the same as a 23 win season.
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800 pound gorilla thread: LB case to be decided:
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