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BRIGGS
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8/7/2006  5:46 PM
Posted by TMS:

i think it's fairly clear to anyone who's followed this game for any length of time what is really meant when someone refers to players w/a high "basketball IQ"... these players are usually well coached & know what to do with the ball & make the right plays when they get the ball in their hands.

high basketball IQ: Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, Brevin Knight, Robert Horry, Brad Miller, Toni Kukoc, etc.

low basketball IQ: Darius Miles, Eddy Curry

I disagree that darius has a poor IQ. If you want to question desire and heart--Ill agree with you, but he knows how to play. He was ready to really breakout and he got hurt. He puts up effeciency numbers both ways. He has a 50-10 game. I think there is a reasonable arguement that he has no natural sprewell/starks in him, but IF he is put in the right position with the right team like they did with TT, his talent should shine and when guys play well, they tend to play harder. Thats why I would trade Miles for Q because his talent level has a much higher plain than Q+hes just plain better right now.
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misterearl
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8/7/2006  6:03 PM
Curry... low. Marbury.... medium. Walt Clyde ... very high. Like that.

Martin - what criteria do you employ to dish out your "basketball IQs"?

Clyde's basketball IQ could have been medium for all you know. He had Dick Barnett beside him. Bradley, DeBusshere and Willis could have been covering for him all that time.

Low, meduium, high?

Like that?

Huh?

Eddy Curry is an easy 6'11 target for a so-called low IQ because of the massive expectations since high school as the next Shaq. His shyness does not help but few wil stop to consider the weight of being annointed at 17 or 18.

Rather than allow him to grow into his profession the so-called experts lay the burden of their mock draft projections at his feet.

Howe long before Bynum is labelled as lazy or having a low basketball IQ?

What was Wilt's basketball IQ?

Nate Thurmond?

Was Chris Dudley's IQ higher than Travis Knight?






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misterearl
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8/7/2006  6:04 PM
What is the collective TEAM IQ?

Is it measured in assists?

Or is it measured in post-game interviews?

That's the only one that matters.



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misterearl
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8/7/2006  6:05 PM
What was Dominique Wilkins basketball IQ as opposed to Larry Bird?
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misterearl
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8/7/2006  6:06 PM
Kevin Mc Hale or Rick Robey?
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Bippity10
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8/7/2006  6:09 PM
I think players that constantly complain about not being in the right system or having the right teammates probably represent the definition of low IQ.

My first year coaching I started with a flex offense, switched to a motion and settled on a high post low post offense. No matter how many times I changed my PG could find a way to contribute. Now he was ideal for a running game and I recognized this but he found a way to help the team win no matter what our system. He made smart plays no matter what the system. He adjusted to the defense without being told. That's a high basketball IQ.

I had another player that was just as productive offensively. He got by on sheer talent. He put up 20 pts a game but killed me because he never knew where he needed to be on the court. Our offense was great. Fans cheered him for the numbers but did not understand how much better our offense could have been if he was in the right spots. Nobody BUT HIS TEAMMATES could understand why I had so little patience with him because he was a star. On defense I had one rule for him. I had to make it simple because he was never in position on D as well. He was a great athlete and fantastic shot blocker. We were a small team so I couldn't afford to have him drifting guarding guys on the perimeter. I always had him guarding the worst offesnive player and helping out on others. I had one rule. On defense get in the paint and stay there. With that rule he could have swatted 8 shots a game and been a hero. Instead all year long I had to watch him float on the perimeter forgetting the one simple rule I had. When I benched him he could not understand why. That is a low basketball IQ.

Many of these things we don't know because we don't know what the coach is telling them to do. Sometimes we biotch at a player for making a mistake when he may be doing exactly as told and it was someone else who was out of position and vice versa. Sometimes a player is called a great defender by his coach and we say "but he gets scored on a lot". Coach is an idiot. Not realizing that his positioning and how he cuts off angles may be the key to our entire defense. He may play for that reason alone. But as a fan we don't know these things. Instead we applaud the stuff we can see and say that's what makes them great.

Anyway back to the point. There is such thing as a low basketball IQ
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misterearl
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8/7/2006  6:13 PM
bippity - how often was Michael Jordan cited for having a high basketball IQ... anywhere?

Think about it.

Its nothing but code for something arbitrary that few can verbalize in qualitative terms

With all due respect to our esteemed host Martin, I have yet to read a functional criteria for IQ from ANYONE.

Might as well take my test if you dare.

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crzymdups
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8/7/2006  6:15 PM
Posted by TMS:



people I see on TNT during the playoffs: Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, Brevin Knight, Robert Horry, Brad Miller, Toni Kukoc, etc.

people with corn rows: Darius Miles, Eddy Curry

OH! I get it!
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TMS
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8/7/2006  6:16 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by TMS:

i think it's fairly clear to anyone who's followed this game for any length of time what is really meant when someone refers to players w/a high "basketball IQ"... these players are usually well coached & know what to do with the ball & make the right plays when they get the ball in their hands.

high basketball IQ: Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, Brevin Knight, Robert Horry, Brad Miller, Toni Kukoc, etc.

low basketball IQ: Darius Miles, Eddy Curry

I disagree that darius has a poor IQ. If you want to question desire and heart--Ill agree with you, but he knows how to play. He was ready to really breakout and he got hurt. He puts up effeciency numbers both ways. He has a 50-10 game. I think there is a reasonable arguement that he has no natural sprewell/starks in him, but IF he is put in the right position with the right team like they did with TT, his talent should shine and when guys play well, they tend to play harder. Thats why I would trade Miles for Q because his talent level has a much higher plain than Q+hes just plain better right now.

he's never been able to live up to close to what his potential is... Jamal Crawford has a 50 pt game too, but that doesn't make him a high IQ type player... i'd argue that Jamal has come closer to living up to his expectations than Darius has in fact... Miles to me is the quintessential example of a guy who thinks he's better than he really is, & isn't willing to work on his game to better himself because of it... if that falls more under the heart & desire labels, so be it... a 6 year NBA career average of 10 & 5 after being taken #3 overall in his draft with all his physical tools & God given ability is a disgrace in my view.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
misterearl
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8/7/2006  6:17 PM
Eddy Curry has cornrows?

Dang, so does Donovan McNabb!

What was Qyntel Woods Basketball IQ compared to that of David Lee?
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TMS
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8/7/2006  6:18 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by TMS:



people I see on TNT during the playoffs: Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, Brevin Knight, Robert Horry, Brad Miller, Toni Kukoc, etc.

people with corn rows: Darius Miles, Eddy Curry

OH! I get it!

thanks for being an a-hole & misrepresenting my comment... pretty low class if you ask me

[Edited by - TMS on 08-07-2006 6:24 PM]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
misterearl
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8/7/2006  6:18 PM
Lastings Milledge, with dreads, has a low baseball IQ

David Wright has a high baseball IQ.
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crzymdups
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8/7/2006  6:18 PM
I agree that there is such a thing as a smart, heady player in the NBA.

But I think the way a lot of people here are thinking of it is "winners" and "losers" - which is a little ridiculous and the way other people are using it is a little disturbing.



[Edited by - crzymdups on 07-08-2006 6:19 PM]
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Bippity10
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8/7/2006  6:20 PM
Posted by misterearl:

bippity - how often was Michael Jordan cited for having a high basketball IQ... anywhere?

What, what what??......i've heard this a million times. This is one of the things that separated him from the rest of the great athletes that thought the game was all about scoring. That lable was always attached to him and Magic, and Larry and Isiah.

But honestly why is this important?

Some guys know the game. They learn the game. They figure out the game. Some guys don't understand the game and don't know how to respond. Like I mentioned above in general it's tough to say who has a high IQ or not because you don't know what the coach is asking them to do, but some players do make it obvious.

Taking shots one on 5 many times is an indicator. Not passing out of triple teams is an indicator. Committing the same fouls on a regular basis is an indicator. Guys that stagnate the ball show evidence of this as well. There are many indicators. Can players improve their "basketball IQ" of course. Does the fact that we are discussing this indicate that it's time for me to laugh? yes.

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crzymdups
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8/7/2006  6:24 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by TMS:



high bball IQ: Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, Brevin Knight, Robert Horry, Brad Miller, Toni Kukoc, etc.

loow bball IQ: Darius Miles, Eddy Curry

OH! I get it!

thanks for being an a-hole & misrepresenting my comment... hey martin, that's pretty low if you ask me.

not trying to be an a-hole, but I don't think you are explaining yourself and I think this is the kind of arbitrary, ridiculous, made up, ESPN label that gets slapped on people and it's lazy and sloppy. it's this codified word for winner or lose or worse and it's one of the reasons I don't watch the idiocy on ESPN.

I mean, I do think it's telling that earl has asked for people to define the term and all people can do is throw out examples. It's just a dangerous label. why not just say someone who has a "high bball IQ" is a great passer or a great defender? isn't that what you're talking about? does it not take IQ to throw a perfect pass? can someone, like Marbury, be a great passer with low bball IQ? I don't get it.
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TMS
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8/7/2006  6:28 PM
don't change my words & quote them in some inane post of your own... if you got a point to make, say it with your own words... did u bother to read the comments i made above the part that you doctored up? i think i made it pretty clear what i was talking about when i'm referring to basketball IQ... i don't form my opinions based on stuff i watch on TNT & ESPN... after all the time we've been posting on the same board that's a pretty ridiculous comment coming from you... you should know me better by now
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
crzymdups
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8/7/2006  6:35 PM
Posted by TMS:

don't change my words & quote them in some inane post of your own... if you got a point to make, say it with your own words... did u bother to read the comments i made above the part that you doctored up? i think i made it pretty clear what i was talking about when i'm referring to basketball IQ... i don't form my opinions based on stuff i watch on TNT & ESPN... after all the time we've been posting on the same board that's a pretty ridiculous comment coming from you... you should know me better by now

I apologize for rearragning your quote.

I do feel though that bball IQ is one of those politically/racially loaded terms that gets tossed out in basketball a lot. obviously some people use it with the right intentions and some people maybe don't. I didn't mean to imply you weren't or that you got your opinions from ESPN - I meant its the kind of assisine crap that ESPN peddles constantly and whenever I watch sports center I want to puke.

Sorry, this has been on my mind - I read this book about politically/racially loaded material in sports writing and sports advertising in basketball and baseball that was very good. I reccommend it. Sports in America is a weird weird place and a lot of the nations hang-ups get expressed in weird ways. I think ESPN is extremely guilty of this quite often.

Anyway, here's the book: Body Politic

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0743247744/sr=1-3/qid=1154990133/ref=sr_1_3/002-1708305-6231214?ie=UTF8&s=books
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Bippity10
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8/7/2006  6:38 PM
Why is it a dangerous label because people choose to over-react when it's thrown out there? Would it be more acceptable if they said he doesn't really have a great grasp of the game instead of using the word IQ. To me someone that doesn't understand the game is a guy that stagnates the ball and then doesn't understand when his teammates complain. He says stuff like "I'm getting alot of assists, I'm a great passer".
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crzymdups
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8/7/2006  6:44 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Why is it a dangerous label because people choose to over-react when it's thrown out there? Would it be more acceptable if they said he doesn't really have a great grasp of the game instead of using the word IQ. To me someone that doesn't understand the game is a guy that stagnates the ball and then doesn't understand when his teammates complain. He says stuff like "I'm getting alot of assists, I'm a great passer".

maybe that would be better. it's just a catch word used by talking heads and I think it does carry connotations that may not be intended. I mean, clearly there are some players who are smart and some who are as dumb as a rock, but I don't think you can cut a line down the league and say this guy definitely has good bball IQ and this guy has low bball IQ. I think that's lazy, dangerous and really what most people would be talking about is "this guy's a winner and this guy's a loser" and that's obviously circumstantial and has more to do with the team than a guy's IQ.

whatever.

[Edited by - crzymdups on 07-08-2006 6:44 PM]
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Bippity10
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8/7/2006  6:45 PM
I watched Curry play last year. I saw him commit the same offensive foul 4 times a game. I saw him go five months without an assist. He takes shots with four people surrounding him and his teammates wide open. Teams openly triple team him because they know he doesn't pass the ball out. Now I don't know Curry very well. He may be a mensa as far as I know. This isn't about his intelligence level, it's just the interpretation of those that over-react to the label. I'm pretty sure my "polo iq" is pretty low and don't bristle if someone says it. But based on what I see of Curry he has a difficult time understanding what needs to be done to win the game. As he plays more and gets better his IQ may raise into the stratosphere. We may one day say he has a high basketball IQ. who knows. But right now, if the shoe fits......
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