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Marbury Interview during the game... Wow
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tomverve
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7/10/2006  1:39 AM
Posted by BlueSeats:

I don't have exact recollection of that discussion but I recall it was centered around Marbury and his plodding style. Then Nash entered the discussion and you told me to compare them we'd have to subtract pace from the equation, but I said that would be unfair to Nash because a quicker pace is an asset he brings to the table, and an advantage he intrinsically offers over Marbury.

That's where the conversation ended. You never did answer that one... and still appear bitter about it.


Sounds familiar. I'm not bitter, just disappointed.

Anyway, the short answer is that differing paces introduce a lot of purely artificial differences in stats, and adjusting for pace removes *only* the artificial differences. If there is something about Nash's faster pace that intrinsically makes his personal numbers better than they would be otherwise, this boost would *not* be removed by adjusting for pace-- it would be preserved in his per-possession numbers. All that would be removed would be the purely artificial inflation his per game numbers get from having more possessions per game than the average player. That's not a matter of opinion, it's just the way it is.

I don't take it too personally once or twice, but this is becoming routine from you. It's simply an annoying distraction to watch you reduce yourself to the antics of the worst posters of the worst boards.

But... do what you gotta do.


I can only control myself so much, being the whining, lying, cowardly troll that I am. (Maybe someday I can officially upgrade to 'cancer')
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BlueSeats
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7/10/2006  2:06 AM
Posted by tomverve:
Posted by BlueSeats:

I don't have exact recollection of that discussion but I recall it was centered around Marbury and his plodding style. Then Nash entered the discussion and you told me to compare them we'd have to subtract pace from the equation, but I said that would be unfair to Nash because a quicker pace is an asset he brings to the table, and an advantage he intrinsically offers over Marbury.

That's where the conversation ended. You never did answer that one... and still appear bitter about it.


Sounds familiar. I'm not bitter, just disappointed.

Anyway, the short answer is that differing paces introduce a lot of purely artificial differences in stats, and adjusting for pace removes *only* the artificial differences. If there is something about Nash's faster pace that intrinsically makes his personal numbers better than they would be otherwise, this boost would *not* be removed by adjusting for pace-- it would be preserved in his per-possession numbers. All that would be removed would be the purely artificial inflation his per game numbers get from having more possessions per game than the average player. That's not a matter of opinion, it's just the way it is.

But we weren't discussing their personal stats, we were discussing them as play makers, and how Nash's increased tempo allows his team more possessions per game. That's when you wanted to look at offensive efficiency (but never did) as I suppose you thought you might prove Marbury's pace could still outscore Phoenix's if it were vastly more efficient (which I highly doubt it is).

Seemed to me then, as it does now, that would unjustly ignore and remove Nash's inherent pace advantage.

Look, I understand removing pace from those who don't control it, like comparing rebounds of bigmen. But to take pace out of the equation between a halfcourt PG and a running PG seems to be ignoring their significant differences at best, and punishing the one with the advantage at worst.

It would be as wrong as comparing rebounds between Ben Wallace and Eddy Curry on a per48 basis, which ignores the fact that Curry has not been able to play anywhere near those minutes, while Ben has.

Per48 would diminish Ben's natural advantage in minutes played in the same way a controlled pace comparison would unfairly diminish Nash natural advantage over Marbury. Get it?


I don't take it too personally once or twice, but this is becoming routine from you. It's simply an annoying distraction to watch you reduce yourself to the antics of the worst posters of the worst boards.

But... do what you gotta do.


I can only control myself so much, being the whining, lying, cowardly troll that I am. (Maybe someday I can officially upgrade to 'cancer')



You're well on your way...



[Edited by - BlueSeats on 07-10-2006 02:08 AM]
tomverve
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7/10/2006  2:26 AM
Well, there's a reason I bowed out of the discussion. At some point it just comes down to either getting it or not. I'm not interested in wasting another few hours of my life trying to get it across, so I won't.

I'm just embarrassed for you that you don't get that you don't get it (again), after all that talk about coming with wits and worthiness and all. Perhaps a bit like you must have felt Marbury was making a fool of himself in his latest talk without realizing it (and I'd agree with you there)-- that's about where you're at right now.

It's all good though. Let's get back to the bar, shall we? cheers
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BlueSeats
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7/10/2006  2:50 AM
Posted by tomverve:

Well, there's a reason I bowed out of the discussion. At some point it just comes down to either getting it or not. I'm not interested in wasting another few hours of my life trying to get it across, so I won't.

I'm just embarrassed for you that you don't get that you don't get it (again), after all that talk about coming with wits and worthiness and all. Perhaps a bit like you must have felt Marbury was making a fool of himself in his latest talk without realizing it (and I'd agree with you there)-- that's about where you're at right now.

Sorry Tom, but that's lame.

I don't say that you're wrong in what you are trying to assert, but this time as last time you leave saying you're right without establishing it, and then you talk down to me about it. It would be one thing if I were bending over backwards to deny the obvious, but one's ability to control pace is hardly "obviously" detached from the role and quality of a playmaker, just as one's ability to stay on the floor is not detached from the amount of rebounds they will give you.

But if it's your style, go ahead and call me a fool rather than work it through.

And my talking to you about wits and worthiness was in regard to your content-free cheapshots in every encounter since that long ago discussion.

Again, if that's your style, run with it.
It's all good though. Let's get back to the bar, shall we? cheers

I have no problem with you personally, and I'm always open to talking about issues. Cheers.
TMS
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7/10/2006  11:23 AM
the guy is simply as clueless as they come... i've never heard or met another thickskulled individual (maybe Ron Artest can hold a candle to him though)... remember a few months ago Marbury was saying how he "loved LB" & how he made him a man... then in the interview he's saying how happy he is now that Isiah's the coach, & when posed the question about whether or not he gives LB any credit for having helped him mature over the past year, Marbury said he refuses to give LB that much credit... gimme a freakin' break already... the guy makes me wanna puke.

& can he please stop referring to the "relationship" he enjoys w/Isiah off the court for once? it makes him seem even more to be teacher's little pet, & that won't ever endear him to his teammates.

[Edited by - TMS on 07-10-2006 11:27 AM]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
newyorknewyork
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7/10/2006  11:42 AM
Only thing that matters is Marbury better bring his game to a another level next season and the seasons after that.

If he spent that 10min interview kissing LBs ass. Saying everything you guys wanted to hear. It wouldn't matter if he didn't bring his game to another level next season. So I don't care what he says good or bad. I do like how he showed up at Vegas though. Thats a positive "action". Hopefully its a sign of things to come on the court. Like taking over a game in the 4th and hitting clutch shots.
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TMS
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7/10/2006  12:21 PM
obviously, what he does on the court is what matters most... do u honestly think he's going to suddenly transform himself into a clutch player & leader on the floor? i don't see any reason to believe it myself... i'll believe it when i see it... until then, i'd rather this guy just not say anything at all, cuz everytime he opens his mouth he just makes an even bigger fool of himself.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
newyorknewyork
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7/10/2006  1:13 PM
I just think its silly to get worked up over what he says. Getting worked up over his play on the court is another story.
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martin
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7/10/2006  1:15 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:

I just think its silly to get worked up over what he says. Getting worked up over his play on the court is another story.

LOL, welcome to New York and the world of online forums.
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newyorknewyork
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7/10/2006  1:30 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

I just think its silly to get worked up over what he says. Getting worked up over his play on the court is another story.

LOL, welcome to New York and the world of online forums.


Hey im not trying to criticize anyone for getting worked up over what he says. Im just saying in my humble opinion its silly to do so. I just stated how I feel. Not that how I feel is the right way to feel or anything.
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nixluva
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7/10/2006  1:53 PM
Its not about ONE PLAYER and it NEVER has been about one player. You guys are just following the same old media created crap that Steph is the reason this team loses. I suppose it had nothing to do with all the other factors that go into any team being a winner or loser. When he's playing his game and the coach and the players around him are in sync with each other his team will win games. Since he's been here we haven't had a chance to really see this team in sync with each other.

I'm telling you that what you saw during the last 2 years is about the coach and players around him more than anything he's done wrong. He's continually been our best player and if we had any kind of help from the other players we would've won.

In his 1st half year Steph was playing well as he and his teammates jelled. He was having double digit Assist games and still scoring. Then Isiah made those trades and that killed the chemistry for a while add to this the fact that H2O was injured and we were left with Shandon as our SG and you can imagine how that hurt the team. Even with the change in personnel Steph still ended up avg'ing 9.3 ast and 19.8 ppg as a Knick. Now without H2O in the Playoffs it wasn't even a fair fight. Still people want to blame Steph as if he could beat Kidd, RJ and KMart by himself.

In 2004-05 things weren't great, but Steph was playing at a high level and at one point it looked like we were on our way to a decent season. He avg'd 21.7 and 8.1 asts and i'm sure that you'd all remember that we didn't have a SG who shot for a high avg and TT was HORRID for most of the year. We also got rid of our Center Nazr and at least he was something in the middle. Things like that are going to destroy your assist chances and obviously your chances to win. Now the biggest reason for most of the losing was a lack of size and D and of course Steph had to improve on D, but not only him but the whole team.

This last year was such a mess that I don't know how anyone could hold that against Steph. So I ask you which of these opportunities were optimal for success? We at least now have a chance to start building towards something for the 1st time since he's been here. We'll have most of the same players again and we really need that continuity. I think the players and coaches with be equally motivated to work together to win. I think we'll see more of the player that was helping us win during that streak until he got injured.
nyk4ever
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7/10/2006  2:00 PM
Posted by nixluva:

Its not about ONE PLAYER and it NEVER has been about one player. You guys are just following the same old media created crap that Steph is the reason this team loses. I suppose it had nothing to do with all the other factors that go into any team being a winner or loser. When he's playing his game and the coach and the players around him are in sync with each other his team will win games. Since he's been here we haven't had a chance to really see this team in sync with each other.

I'm telling you that what you saw during the last 2 years is about the coach and players around him more than anything he's done wrong. He's continually been our best player and if we had any kind of help from the other players we would've won.

In his 1st half year Steph was playing well as he and his teammates jelled. He was having double digit Assist games and still scoring. Then Isiah made those trades and that killed the chemistry for a while add to this the fact that H2O was injured and we were left with Shandon as our SG and you can imagine how that hurt the team. Even with the change in personnel Steph still ended up avg'ing 9.3 ast and 19.8 ppg as a Knick. Now without H2O in the Playoffs it wasn't even a fair fight. Still people want to blame Steph as if he could beat Kidd, RJ and KMart by himself.

In 2004-05 things weren't great, but Steph was playing at a high level and at one point it looked like we were on our way to a decent season. He avg'd 21.7 and 8.1 asts and i'm sure that you'd all remember that we didn't have a SG who shot for a high avg and TT was HORRID for most of the year. We also got rid of our Center Nazr and at least he was something in the middle. Things like that are going to destroy your assist chances and obviously your chances to win. Now the biggest reason for most of the losing was a lack of size and D and of course Steph had to improve on D, but not only him but the whole team.

This last year was such a mess that I don't know how anyone could hold that against Steph. So I ask you which of these opportunities were optimal for success? We at least now have a chance to start building towards something for the 1st time since he's been here. We'll have most of the same players again and we really need that continuity. I think the players and coaches with be equally motivated to work together to win. I think we'll see more of the player that was helping us win during that streak until he got injured.

It comes with the territory of being a good player and a player paid like Marbury is, as well as the fact he deems himself the best PG in the league. How come alot of other PG's lead their team to victories with less talent on their team (see Chris Paul). Why should a coach have to be in sync WITH Marbury, as far as I see it, it should be the other way around and Marbury should be in sync WITH the coach. Also, what exactly is Marburys game and when has it ever been really successful?

A PG's job is to make his teammates better and so far the only teammate that I've seen Marbury make look good was Nazr Mohammed, thats it. The best PG's in this league all dictate the flow of the game and LEAD their team, when has Marbury done any of this with the Knicks, forget about the rest of his stops.

I'm so tired of people using Marburys 20 & 8 year avg to backup his being a good player. If for once someone would use Marburys playoff record to backup his being a good player, it would make sense. Oh wait, his playoff record is 6-14.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 07-10-2006 2:02 PM]
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TMS
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7/10/2006  2:27 PM
nixluva, believe me i was a big supporter of that Marbury trade when it went down... i was elated that Isiah traded for him cuz i had optimism that he'd finally show that he'd matured into a team guy & could help this franchise turn things around... but over the past couple years he's shown me anything but... sure, he showed a few glimpses when he first got here, but lately all i'm hearing out of his mouth is ridiculous comments that only prove to me he's still as immature & selfish as ever... & his performance on the court lately doesn't do much to prove anything to the contrary either... again, i'll believe it when i see it... if he can show he's become the leader he was brought here to be, then i'll be more than happy to admit i judged him prematurely... i would like nothing else than to be able to root for this guy again, but right now he just disgusts me with everything he does & says.
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nyk4ever
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7/10/2006  2:38 PM
Posted by TMS:

nixluva, believe me i was a big supporter of that Marbury trade when it went down... i was elated that Isiah traded for him cuz i had optimism that he'd finally show that he'd matured into a team guy & could help this franchise turn things around... but over the past couple years he's shown me anything but... sure, he showed a few glimpses when he first got here, but lately all i'm hearing out of his mouth is ridiculous comments that only prove to me he's still as immature & selfish as ever... & his performance on the court lately doesn't do much to prove anything to the contrary either... again, i'll believe it when i see it... if he can show he's become the leader he was brought here to be, then i'll be more than happy to admit i judged him prematurely... i would like nothing else than to be able to root for this guy again, but right now he just disgusts me with everything he does & says.

That is exactly the same synopsis I have TMS. Exactly the same.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
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