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I awoke with a really really strange thought...
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joec32033
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7/6/2006  12:44 AM
Posted by Anji:
Posted by oohah:
Bro, If Larry did a good job AND the players bought into the system, I honesly believe this is a 53+ win team. I think the best Isiah will do here-absolute best-is 48 wins if EVERYTHING goes his way.

Yup, I said it here first folks, If LB and the players, and management actually worked together, we would be a 53+ win club.

Oohah, the reason I believe that Isiah should win at least 45 games is he talked this roster up so much. He choose(made Dolan believe in) these players over a HOF-caliber coach(on a side not, did you Riley, Phil Jackson, AND Brown are all not in the Hall of fame as coaches?-http://cbs.sportsline.com/nba/history/halloffame). .500 is just not good enough becuase at it's best as I said at it's best if everyone works together this has he potential to be a very good team. I doubt Thomas' sell speech to Dolan was "Get rid of Brown and I'll take this $123 million roster to the .500 promised land!"

Actually, I wasn't calling you out directly Joe. I think that the Knicks had/has enough talent to be pretty decent team, but it takes time for that to happen. When you are 23 win team, it means either Tim Duncan got injured for the year or the team sucks, whether it is the coaches fault etc.

Not only was last year not a year to build on, but the team backslid; progress was retarded.

So last year's team sucked. To expect them to become a full-on good team is unfair and unrealistic and really setting yourself up for disappointment and Knicks-style ulcers.

I don't mean to rain on your expectations, but I think you should do what I do: Aim for a realistic improvement and hope for a huge one.

oohah

oohah

Since I already responded once, do I have to respond again?
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rvhoss
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7/6/2006  2:52 AM
I have read and read this thread and since martin called me out to put a number on wins, I have yet to see his response...let me remind you martin of your post, in case you forgot:
Posted by martin:

RV, take a stand on this one and don't hide behind the quotes of LB or whomever. What is your improved record for this upcoming season?

35? 45? 40?

So, martin, for the love of god, take a stand on this one and don't hide behind the quotes of LB or whomever. What is your improved record for this upcoming season?

35? 45? 40?

why did you even post that to me? Weak. very very weak.

all you suckas saying 45 wins, i like the high expectations, but i think in reality, you are full of ****.

[Edited by - rvhoss on 07-06-2006 08:54 AM]
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joec32033
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7/6/2006  7:28 AM
all you suckas saying 45 wins, i like the high expectations, but i think in reality, you are full of ****.

RV....make sure you make the distinction between expectations and what some people think Zeke should win to keep his job. We are talking about 2 or 3 different win totals in this thread.

For example, I think Zeke should have to win 45 to keep his job. He said Larry didn't use his players right. He said he has total faith in this roster. He qualified to Dolan that this $123 mil roster can win. IF a good team to Zeke is only somewhere around or less than .500 I think Knicks fans everywhere are in trouble.
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fishmike
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7/6/2006  7:48 AM
how do you measure the talent on this team? We have a group of players with some statistical accomplishments and thats all. We have some young players regarded by scouts as potentially solid NBA players but no stars to speak of.

Our veteran players as a whole are not players that have won at the NBA level, and our young players are not regarded as guys who are quickly going to elevate the level of a team.

So when we talk win totals where do they come from? What reality is being drawn on to come up with "I think they should have won 50+ games" ???

This is a 30 win team until proven otherwise. Seeing is believing. The only thing thats elevating this team is great teamwork, which none of these players (veterans especially) have demonstrated in the past. Even more so its defense, another trait our club isnt exactly strong on.

Hey, I hope I'm wrong but I call it like I see it.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
joec32033
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7/6/2006  8:14 AM
Posted by fishmike:

how do you measure the talent on this team? We have a group of players with some statistical accomplishments and thats all. We have some young players regarded by scouts as potentially solid NBA players but no stars to speak of.

Our veteran players as a whole are not players that have won at the NBA level, and our young players are not regarded as guys who are quickly going to elevate the level of a team.

So when we talk win totals where do they come from? What reality is being drawn on to come up with "I think they should have won 50+ games" ???

This is a 30 win team until proven otherwise. Seeing is believing. The only thing thats elevating this team is great teamwork, which none of these players (veterans especially) have demonstrated in the past. Even more so its defense, another trait our club isnt exactly strong on.

Hey, I hope I'm wrong but I call it like I see it.

Fish, just like I base my opinion that Brown can help us build a winner better (not faster) than Zeke because of past record, I look at our players and do the same. Once again, I am talking best case scenario. Talking normal averages(now this is with vets), between Steph and Stevie, that is 40 points, 14 assists, and about 8 rebounds per game. Curry is about 15 and 6, etc, etc...

By my estimation talent wise we are a very good team. Talent doesn't win games on it's own though. As seen by last season...coaching, chemistry and fit are also huge parts of it.

Once again, and I'll keep saying it-we are talking about a lot of different types of records here-I have listed 4....

My Prediction is 40ish wins (I'm gonna take the under on that)
What I think Zeke should have to win to convinve me to let him stay-45
Absolute best case scenario for this team with Zeke as coach-48
At it's best(IF they bought into LB's system and all this crap didn't get in the way)-53+

An to all these uys who are saying 22 wins is too much to ask from Zeke-This roster is not normally a 23 win team. He laid the blame MAINLY and DIRECTLY on Larry. I would think Zeke thought that this team was at the very least a .500 team, so we are talking about 4 more wins than what I think Zeke thought this roster-at the very least- was capable of. With the development of Frye and Lee (and Nate to a much lesser degree) and the fact Isiah is coaching for his career and the players like him (for now)...that is not too much to ask.
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misterearl
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7/6/2006  8:52 AM
joec32033 - did you REALLY say the Knicks should have won 53 games under Larry Brown?

I'm rubbing my eyes again

53?

Based on what, Larry's Detroit championship?
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joec32033
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7/6/2006  8:59 AM
Posted by misterearl:

joec32033 - did you REALLY say the Knicks should have won 53 games under Larry Brown?

I'm rubbing my eyes again

53?

Based on what, Larry's Detroit championship?


Once again what I said-I am going to Bold it so it is very clear-nothing personal, earl, it's just alot of people seem to be getting confused with all these predictions floating around.

If everything went right. If Larry bent a little to appease the players-he did in Detroit and Philly and Indy and if the players bought into the system fully and played up to their normal potential, and management did give Lary the baqckup he needed and not just out choose the players over him and take away his teeth(insert old joke here)-now I am talking the team as it stood for the last game of the season- could have been a 53+ win team based on talent.
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rvhoss
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7/6/2006  9:10 AM
joe, you have lost your mind...so you are saying that isiah should be fired if he doesn't win 45 games because he said last year was larry's fault

There is no logic at all other than the fact that you think zeke should be fired unless we are the 5th seed in the east, when ALL the experts predict battling for the 8th seed in the east is a fantastic story for the season.

You see why we think you don't know what you are talking about? Well, maybe you don't.

Fish, believe it or not, said exactly what needed to be said and is 99% dead on, only 99% because I didn't read the entire post, I was scared of the backhanded rv you are a jj lover compliment.

I'm gonna read the entire thing now and bold my favorite parts...
Posted by fishmike:

how do you measure the talent on this team? We have a group of players with some statistical accomplishments and thats all. We have some young players regarded by scouts as potentially solid NBA players but no stars to speak of.

Our veteran players as a whole are not players that have won at the NBA level, and our young players are not regarded as guys who are quickly going to elevate the level of a team.

So when we talk win totals where do they come from? What reality is being drawn on to come up with "I think they should have won 50+ games" ???

This is a 30 win team until proven otherwise. Seeing is believing. The only thing thats elevating this team is great teamwork, which none of these players (veterans especially) have demonstrated in the past. Even more so its defense, another trait our club isnt exactly strong on.

Hey, I hope I'm wrong but I call it like I see it.

nope, I'd have to say I agree 100%

Isiah DOUBLES the win total...hell, for that matter, ANYBODY doubles the teams previous win total, and it's an astonishing accomplishment...keep in mind we added no new players this off season but draft picks.

Joe, stop trying to double talk your way out of this one...to say a 53 win team is pretty dumb (sorry for being blunt).

30 wins, YOU FIRED.

35 wins, back to where we were pre LB...not a success, but depending on how the wins are constructed could be progress, but IMHO, you gotta go zeke

41 wins, .500 records, which would be good enough to win the Atlantic and a 3rd seed, zeke for sure stays. AND wins Coach of the year (historically speaking, he does this and he's a lock for the award)

45 wins, islesfat, mck1, nyk4whentheyarewinning and djsunonthebandwagon stop posting for a month. islesfat stops forever.

50 wins, GM of the year and Coach of the year and I get to moderate the board for a month.

55 wins, well, nothing because it will be immediately followed by the four horsemen of the apocolypse (sp?)

[Edited by - rvhoss on 07-06-2006 3:14 PM]
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joec32033
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7/6/2006  9:23 AM
Posted by rvhoss:

joe, you have lost your mind...so you are saying that isiah should be fired if he doesn't win 45 games because he said last year was larry's fault, then you say that this team is a team that should win 30 something games.

There is no logic at all other than the fact that you think zeke should be fired unless we are the 5th seed in the east, when ALL the experts predict battling for the 8th seed in the east is a fantastic story for the season.

You see why we think you don't know what you are talking about? Well, maybe you don't.

Fish, believe it or not, said exactly what needed to be said and is 99% dead on, only 99% because I didn't read the entire post, I was scared of the backhanded rv you are a jj lover compliment.

I'm gonna read the entire thing now and bold my favorite parts...
Posted by fishmike:

how do you measure the talent on this team? We have a group of players with some statistical accomplishments and thats all. We have some young players regarded by scouts as potentially solid NBA players but no stars to speak of.

Our veteran players as a whole are not players that have won at the NBA level, and our young players are not regarded as guys who are quickly going to elevate the level of a team.

So when we talk win totals where do they come from? What reality is being drawn on to come up with "I think they should have won 50+ games" ???

This is a 30 win team until proven otherwise. Seeing is believing. The only thing thats elevating this team is great teamwork, which none of these players (veterans especially) have demonstrated in the past. Even more so its defense, another trait our club isnt exactly strong on.

Hey, I hope I'm wrong but I call it like I see it.

nope, I'd have to say I agree 100%

Isiah DOUBLES the win total...hell, for that matter, ANYBODY doubles the teams previous win total, and it's an astonishing accomplishment...keep in mind we added no new players this off season but draft picks.

Joe, stop trying to double talk your way out of this one...to say a 53 win team is pretty dumb (sorry for being blunt).

30 wins, YOU FIRED.

35 wins, back to where we were pre LB...not a success, but depending on how the wins are constructed could be progress, but IMHO, you gotta go zeke

41 wins, .500 records, which would be good enough to win the Atlantic and a 3rd seed, zeke for sure stays. AND wins Coach of the year (historically speaking, he does this and he's a lock for the award)

45 wins, islesfat, mck1, nyk4whentheyarewinning and djsunonthebandwagon stop posting for a month. islesfat stops forever.

50 wins, GM of the year and Coach of the year and I get to moderate the board for a month.

55 wins, well, nothing because it will be immediately followed by the four horsemen of the apocolypse (sp?)

Bro, I have not double talked once. I have been VERY consistent with what I believe.

Look, Zeke says these players are good. Zeke says he can win with them. Is 30 wins wiinning to Zeke? 35? That is a major concern for me if he constitutes that as winning.

Read between the lines before you start calling people dumb. Say last season didn't happen. Take it off the books because that is basically what Zeke said when he blamed this all on Larry.

No there is no 20 win season-Say we are going into Larry's first season-coming off 2005. Say we have the roster we have now and for the sake of argument, you know that the team will buy into Brown(obviousl sake of argument-all Brown's first season with a team ususally suck). You know that the players will run Browns' system. You know they will play at the very least CLOSE to what they normally do.-Bro I am talking BEST case scenario..

Coming off a 33 win season, LB can give us 7-10 wins. The upgrade in talent is another 5-10 wins. That is between 45 and 53 wins.

Once again I am talking best case scenario.
~You can't run from who you are.~
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